Synth Forum

Notifications
Clear all

Montage File managment

9 Posts
3 Users
0 Likes
3,752 Views
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

I am a new user of Montage and never have been user of Motif so I have some questions that could be obvious to the Motif users but not for me.
Although I am owner of many new and old Yamaha synths and pianos there are many concepts in the file managment that in Montage are very confusing:

1) I want to backup my performances one by one (as performance not as library), how can I do it?

2) I want to reload my performances one by one selecting the destination bank and program number, how can I do it?

3) I want to load a single performance from a LIBRARY selecting its destination, how can I do it?

4) I want to backup my waveforms (multisamples) one by one, how can I do it?

5) I want to reload my waveforms (multisamples) one by one, how can I do it?

6) I want to swap my user performances for to reorder its position within a bank, how can I do it?

7) How I can edit the MIDI Bank Select and Program Change assigned to a Performance?

8) Is there any way to see in the browser the performances grouped in banks (128 performances per bank each one assigned to a MIDI program change)?

 
Posted : 03/06/2018 9:19 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

1) I want to backup my performances one by one (as performance not as library), how can I do it?


This requires a USB cable, you can back them up to your computer (Mac or Win) using an application called MONTAGE CONNECT (available for free download from the Yamaha.com website, MONTAGE product page). MONTAGE CONNECT allows you to quickly and easily manage your own Performances in Folders on your computer.
Learn all about it here:
What is MONTAGE CONNECT?

MONTAGE CONNECT will work to manage all your MONTAGE PERFORMANCES, but significantly it does not move custom Waveforms and Samples. This means it deals with all Preset Waveforms, installed Library Waveforms, and loaded User Waveforms, in their location when the PERFORMANCE is "captured".

2) I want to reload my performances one by one selecting the destination bank and program number, how can I do it?


The question assumes facts not in evidence. If you begin thinking about Bank and Program Numbers that you want to place items, you are thinking two dimensionally in a three dimensional game. Or maybe a better way to say it is, it is not applicable.
There are currently (version 2.00) some 2,143 Performances in Factory memory... and there can be 5,760 custom Performances between your USER Bank of 640, and your 8 LIBRARY Banks of 640 each.

The USER BANK is 5 sets of 128 Programs = 640 PERFORMANCE
Each LIBRARY BANK is made up of 5 sets of 128 Programs = 640 PERFORMANCES
There are 8 LIBRARY BANKS

Somebody asked us why we abandoned the USER BANK buttons... well, you start to see why when you do some simple math here.

You can quickly assemble any of these into custom set lists... the set list (called LIVE SET) allow you to create and recall PERFORMANCES in any order you decide. Each USER Bank has some 2,048 Live Set slots...

To create a LIVE SET, you simply recall the sound you wish to place in your custom bank.
Hold [SHIFT] + [LIVE SET]
Touch the box you wish to place your PERFORMANCE... initially it will take you to USER 1, PAGE 1, Slot 1... but you can place them in any order you wish
There are 8 USER Live Set BANKS. Each BANK has 16 PAGES... each PAGE has 16 Slots.

You can name BANKS, you can name the PAGES, you can even name the Slot beyond the PERFORMANCE NAME.

MONTAGE CONNECT will allow you to keep all of your PERFORMANCE data - you can with a single click, transfer that PERFORMANCE to the internal MONTAGE... and then STORE it to a the current USER Bank. You do not have to concern yourself with where in the USER BANK it goes. It goes to the lowest numbered empty location in your USER BANK. So you can create the PERFORMANCEs in any order, and then put them in the order you want to use them with LIVE SET.

LIVE SET is simply a list that accesses your PERFORMANCES wherever they happen to be... be it in PRESET, USER, or a LIBRARY location. The currently active LIVE SET bank gives a specific BANK SELECT and PROGRAM CHANGE to access each of your PERFORMANCES.

Learn more about using LIVE SETS and PERFORMANCE here:
PERFORMANCE Basics and the "LIVE SET" Part 1
PERFORMANCE Basics and the "LIVE SET" Part 2

Alternative method:
You can capture individual Performance on an iOS device (iPad/iPhone) as a bulk. These can be organized into several Set Lists. Set Lists can be reorganized as quickly and easily as moving app icons on your phone. Hold down an item in the set list, they all prepare to be moved... drag and drop them to reorder your play list.

3) I want to load a single performance from a LIBRARY selecting its destination, how can I do it?


You do not have to "load a single performance from a LIBRARY"... once it is in your LIBRARY, you can reference it via your LIVE SET.

Again, you are applying another workflow to the MONTAGE - which has more programs than the traditional method of "selecting its destination" would handle easily.
We've added more than 200 Performances to the Factory Presets already via updates (we do keep adding stuff), and you already can have room for some 5760 of your own between the USER and LIBRARY banks.

When you want to select the PERFORMANCES destination - simply place it in a LIVE SET... A LIVE SET can contain (reference) 2048 PERFORMANCEs
No LOAD operation is necessary. The whole concept of the LIBRARY is to place all the Waveforms and Samples into memory for reference. Once in one of your LIBRARIES, you can reference it at any time, in any LIVE SET, as many times as you want. Rather instantly.

4) I want to backup my waveforms (multisamples) one by one, how can I do it?
5) I want to reload my waveforms (multisamples) one by one, how can I do it?


Again, you are applying some other workflow to the MONTAGE.
You already have your WAVEFORMS before they are installed in the MONTAGE - why would you need to backup your waveforms one by one... go play, do something more constructive with your time!!!

A MONTAGE Waveform is a collection of audio samples mapped vertically (Velocity) and horizontally (Key map) across the keyboard.

Since MONTAGE is a player, not a sampler, you would not need to backup your WAVEFORMS one-by-one. That kind of thing is best handled off board (on your computer) using the upcoming "Melas MONTAGE Waveform Editor".

6) I want to swap my user performances for to reorder its position within a bank, how can I do it?


Call up the LIVE SET (your custom listing of programs)
Highlight the LIVE SET Performance Slot you want to move.
Touch "Edit"
Touch the box that says "Swap"
Touch the box where you want that Performance.
Done.

Or, you can create a set list in the Soundmondo App that allows quick reordering.

7) How I can edit the MIDI Bank Select and Program Change assigned to a Performance?


You can't - a BANK SELECT and PROGRAM CHANGE is assigned to a PERFORMANCE according to the MONTAGE 'catalog' which it builds as you go. There are 0 out of 640 Performances in the USER Bank when you first get your MONTAGE. You fill that with PERFORMANCES by either creating them, or importing them. You can create them from scratch, or by editing a Preset, you can import them from an installed LIBRARY or from an external source like MONTAGE CONNECT or from SOUNDMONDO. The external programs bulk the PERFORMANCE data to an Edit Buffer where you can play it, edit it and if you wish STORE it to internal.

Each Performance is assigned a Bank Select and Program Change according to where it is. You can have MONTAGE assign an additional Bank Select and Program Change to any Performance by placing it in a LIVE SET.

8) Is there any way to see in the browser the performances grouped in banks (128 performances per bank each one assigned to a MIDI program change)?


Not sure what browser you are talking about.

But you can see the Bank Select and Program Change of any PERFORMANCE by going to the HOME screen
Touch the Performance Name to see the pop-in menu
Touch "Property"

You view the data by using CATEGORY SEARCH. Learn about it here:
Using CATEGORY SEARCH

 
Posted : 04/06/2018 3:27 am
Jason
Posts: 7896
Illustrious Member
 

8) Is there any way to see in the browser the performances grouped in banks (128 performances per bank each one assigned to a MIDI program change)?

For preset Performances, the Performances are listed by number in the Data List documentation. Each "bank" describes an MSB/LSB pair which contains 128 different PC locations. The Data List also defines which MSB/LSB pairs represent which bank of Performances.

Assuming you want the "bank" to recall the entire Performance (all PARTs) and not just replace one of the PARTs within the current Performance with something else, then the MSB will be 64 signifying Multi-PART Performances (as of Version 2.0 of the firmware -- it's different before v2.0 -- refer to the right version of Data List which matches your firmware or update your firmware to the latest).

There's a full list of the MSB/LSB+PC values and Performances they map to here: https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/finally-i-understand-program-change-sequence-aftertwo-years#reply-31284

 
Posted : 04/06/2018 6:27 am
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Jason: Thank you very much for file "Montage_Fw_V2_PerfBankPC_Cheatsheet_Lined.pdf" containing the Montage´s performances presets sorted by MIDI Bank An Program Change for Yamaha Montage Firmware Version 2.0 , download link "http://docdro.id/cFPvg6I" .

EXACTLY THIS is what I expect from a tech support and not marketing words.

 
Posted : 04/06/2018 6:56 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Dear Bad Mister;

I understand that you are a Yamaha employee and probably you have instructions of the marketing departament about what to talk about and about what to shut up.
So don´t take this reply as personal, I understand your position due I have been in your shoes.

I purchased my first Yamaha synthesizer in 1980, three years before that the MIDI protocol was implemented, I have been tech support of Yamaha between 1984 to 1999 and also I have been sound designer for the company.

Also I have calculated the amount of money that personally I have spent purchaising Yamaha synthesizers, pianos and electronic machines in more than USD100.000.- , is not a small amount of money.

So allow me to exercise my customer right and let you know that I dont like to be taked for an idiot.

My questions were carefully thought and oriented to a precise purpose that´s obvious: Montage is a MIDI machine, a 16 part multitimbral machine with a complete and deep MIDI implementation prepared for to use it for MIDI sequencing with external sequencers and for to do a full automation and total recall of all parameters USING MIDI (not category search required, not Live Set required).

It doesnt´s matter how funny and/or colorfull apearence could have the user interface or what new marketing concepts like "Live Set" will be invented, the device is what it is, what it´s structure defines that it is.

So please I am speaking about the memory map of the device and how can be accessed and edited, my questions can be replied with YES or NO, or if you want with a: "the company does not allow me to reply about this", if you prefer.

It would be fine to see an official document in the download page equivalent to the one that the user Jason has published:"Montage_Fw_V2_PerfBankPC_Cheatsheet_Lined.pdf" containing the Montage´s performances presets sorted by MIDI Bank and Program Change for Yamaha Montage Firmware Version 2.0.

Bad Mister I apreciate your complete tutorials and your patience for reply to everybody, but I am looking with big concern that Yamaha is adopting the stupid kid oriented concepts that years ago has implemented Steinberg in Nuendo and Cubase.

I am referring exactly to the "Category Search" that Steinberg is using since some years for to select the patches of the VST plugins discarding the use of MIDI Program Changes for most of them and the more recent decision of to exclude for complete the use of MIDI Bank Select & Program Changes in the VST3 plugin design.

This is one of the most idiot decision that I ever have seen and a reason for to sell all the devices adopting this criteria.

 
Posted : 04/06/2018 7:45 pm
Jason
Posts: 7896
Illustrious Member
 

I can see both sides. All I did was took information that is fairly well documented in the Data List already and re-factored it on one table. At first glance, there doesn't seem to be any gap in information requested (bank/pc-to-Performance-number) since it's all there in a fairly well organized document. Yamaha documentation embraces the MSB/LSB bank + PC nomenclature as it is spelled out in a table and there are previous threads where BM has referenced the table and helped walk through hex/decimal, etc.

Also, BM does also routinely give background information. Some is historical (with a focus on Yamaha's), some is industry-wide, professional (gigging/touring/producing/etc. musician), etc. It's not just marketing smoke-screen. That's not to say there isn't a dash of smoke here and there -- but it's fairly well balanced with insightful help.

Also, it's sometimes difficult to predict which bucket of user someone falls into. You may help someone with the basics ("did you plug it in?" ) on the heels of seeing questions from someone with experience -- and you get temporarily adjusted to the less knowledgeable user. I know you can appreciate this from some of your comments.

Hang in there - at least you're getting your requests knocked out one way or the other.

 
Posted : 04/06/2018 11:58 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

Don't shoot the messenger.

The "Cheat Sheet" will be of little practical use to you as it does not identify the true Single Part instruments. And this is why the question you asked cannot be answered quickly or as succinctly as providing a simple listing. My role is not to defend anything but to help folks, like yourself, over the hurdles of what is obviously new and different about the current product.

Enough on that (I know what my role is even if you don't). The "Cheat Sheet" is appreciated because it is a lot of work, and the MULTI columns will serve you well. One of the things we hope the community can do is help each other grow accustomed to some of the challenges presented by MONTAGE.

It is the "Single" columns where it will not serve the use case you were outlining in your question... or better stated, in the specific way you framed your question. You will find that out as you attempt to use it...

You have a box (a method of working) and you want to neatly fit what MONTAGE does into that box. Unfortunately, it does not exactly fit without some help from a shoe horn.

The MONTAGE can be used as a 16 Part multi-timbral Tone Engine. That is one of its two personalities (obviously this is the one you wish to embrace). But it's other personality involves using multiple Parts differently... in this other personality multiple Parts are combined together under KBD CTRL as one mega synth engine... for live performing.

The hole in the "Cheat Sheet":
I contend you will never recall "CFX + FM EP"; MSB 63, LSB 0, PC 0
from the SINGLE column, not when you are doing a traditional multi-timbral Tone Engine workflow.

Reason: it is not a complete instrument sound. It is only a portion of the CFX acoustic piano Velocity Limited to a specific range. It is not playable alone. In the second (KBD CTRL) personality of the MONTAGE, you can build an instrument using multiple Parts, so it is possible to build an instrument that goes beyond just the 8 Elements (oscillators)... the "CFX" here is 18 Elements across 4 Parts (the FM EP occupies Part 5). Much more detail in terms of velocity layering (9 velocity switches in the low and mid regions, 8 velocity switches in the high range, plus Key-Off Sound).

When you recall MSB/LSB PC 63/0/0 you will be recalling only a partial sound velocities 46-127... because you are only recalling a portion of that instrument.

If you recalled "Seattle Sections" using the Single column; MSB 63, LSB 2, PC 64
You will recall only the 1st violins.... G2-G8
No notes below "G" on the violin section.. this is a Note Limited partial sound.

Now for those, like you, looking for a listing of the instruments (as you outlined), sorry, there is no nice neat answer at this time... other than the one provided inside the MONTAGE... when you set the [CATEGORY SEARCH] function to ATTRIBUTE = Single.

Doing so eliminates all but the Single Part Performances, and shows you only those that can standalone as complete playable sounds. Playable from all keys, at all velocities, intended for the type of use case you describe as your workflow: 16 Part multitimbral use as in traditional sequencing.

So for the "Cheat Sheet" to really allow you to "cheat" the actual Single Part programs would appear in green or bold or something that would alert you that *this* is a complete sound and not just a partial building block. From your view, this would be totally illogical to offer individual building blocks as selectable items...
But this is just one viewpoint. For those building and designing sounds, the component blocks may indeed want to recall such partial programs. It's a matter of approach.

For example, when in Performance Category Search, if you set the BANK to Preset, and ATTRIBUTE to Single, you will be shown the listing of sounds that are usable in a 16-Part multi-timbal use case.

Viewing Acoustic Pianos, notice how the first Single Part acoustic is "CFX Stage" 63/0/3
This is the first listing that is a fully playable standalone instrument.
The second one is "CFX PopStudioGrand" 63/0/5
The third is "S700 for Montage" 63/0/18

For your use, a listing of the true (actual) Single Parts in that first data column would be the thing.
Hope that helps.

On one hand, I feel your pain, but MIDI is growing, changing, evolving. The whole thing of using multiple channels to better articulate a sound, while not new, is in full play on MONTAGE... and this seems to be the way things with MIDI are evolving/changing. If this is not apart of your use for a synth, this can all seem like it is unnecessary and a hurdle to how you are used to working... and it may well be. Why I'm here is to point out how it is different and ways you might find can still work for a more traditional (now old school) workflow.

The "Cheat Sheet" can be improved by highlighting the ATTRIBUTE = SINGLE listings
The take away from your comments is you'd like to see a traditional, old school, listing of individual Voices.
When Yamaha removed "Voice mode" in MONTAGE - this was one of the trade-offs. The concept was to allow the player/composer/sound designer to use as much of the synthesizer resources as they desire to construct a playable program - why not be able to focus all the power into one realtime controllable entity. Everything is now a Performance, whether it uses just one Part or all sixteen. What you need is a separate listing of the real Singles. Point taken.

Perhaps the "Cheat Sheet" could be updated to reflect (highlight) the Single Part Performances (green) that standalone.
For us dinosaurs who actually still use Program Changes during a Song, the ground we are standing on is ever shifting, shrinking... you'd better hope they keep some old school folks around to maintain order. Most plugin synthesizers don't deal with program changes, so you have a generation of users that are oblivious to the whole protocol.... so as soon as you talk MSB/LSB and PC we've dated ourselves.

 
Posted : 06/06/2018 5:51 pm
Jason
Posts: 7896
Illustrious Member
 

Original thread referenced was one describing the mechanics of using the MSB/LSB+PC chart in the data list and "cheat sheet" was presented there only as a means to double-check the formulaic answer someone would get -- or just skip calculating (cheat) and use the lookup table.

It would be helpful to have a PART count or at least single-vs-multi called out in a column on the data list. I've wished for this most recently here:
Source: https://yamahasynth.com/forum/regarding-the-data-list-manual#reply-29286

In 2016 I implicitly wish for the part count to be added to the data list (point out it's a missing piece of information): https://yamahasynth.com/forum/master-keyboard-midi-question#reply-13564

Since this is only "documented" inside Montage, PART Count or single vs. multi can only be added to the chart by writing software to extract this information from Montage -- which can be done. Not something I'm going to do in the short-term.

For its usage here - I previously suggest its use for Multi-Part as these are easier to deal with. Single-PART (MSB/LSB) has some pitfalls since for multi-PART Performances often any single PART is a fractured piece of the whole and does not stand on its own without the other PARTs of the same Performance. BM explained this well giving specific examples.

It seems like there was also a question about how to use MSB/LSB+PC to recall your own performances. The data list table shows MSB/LSB pairs for user performances -- you would follow the same math/method as the presets - but apply this to your user performances (or live set, there's information in the supplemental manual for Live Set).

 
Posted : 07/06/2018 3:18 pm
Jason
Posts: 7896
Illustrious Member
 

As mentioned before - the "cheat sheet" was targeted for a different thread and had limited utility here -- just to keep from having to use formulas to find the values. There was an implicit request for single-vs-multi to be added to the spreadsheet. Yamaha has no source for this information. Meaning there is no true documentation covering which presets are single-PART and which are multi-PART. Beyond that, I thought that PART count would be good to know in case you were using documentation to help narrow down which presets to combine together. There may be a preset that's better to start with in the same category with say 3 PARTs vs. 5 PARTs -- and there's no easy way to search for this quickly. Even on Montage the search is either single or multi -- not by PART count. You must load the PART and look at the PART count for each.

The original data was just pulled from the Data List. I've since added the PART count which was arrived at through custom software extract this data. Although I've done this type of thing before - I usually find that "starting over" with a clean-slate "ground-up" method produces a better tool.

The new spreadsheet can be found here: http://docdro.id/0cf7fej

I chose to highlight those Performances which are single-PART by colorizing the MSB/LSB/PC for single-Part in the standard Montage [CATEGORY SEARCH] color for single-PART instruments (green font).

NOTE: I haven't checked the latest for correctness. To me, it looks like "PART count" past 790 the data is suspect. My decoder may have "gotten off the rails". I've spot-checked the first few pages which seem fine. My plan is to leave as-is and wait for feedback before investigating if anything is wrong.

EDIT/Update: I've used my Montage to scroll through the Performances past 790 - and it's true - these are "all" single-PART. At first glance, the information looks reasonably correct.

 
Posted : 18/06/2018 6:21 am
Share:

© 2024 Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.    Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us