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  1. Tommy Mandel
  2. Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Monday, 03 July 2017
I’m sorry if this is going over old ground here. Also, since it’s in the manual - but I feel like a ping-pong ball, being bounced between the Reference Manual, the Owners’ Manual, and the Quick Start Guide! Half-seriously, I’ll be on the trail of an answer, and the RM will say, “go to the OM” and then the OM will tell me “That part’s in the Quick Start Guide, see there.”

What i’m trying to do:
•Get the SuperKnob to control the Filter Cutoff of a Part. and separately, to
•Get the SuperKnob to control the Filter Cutoff of ALL Parts.

What I know I have to do:
•Turn on the Motion Sequence for the Performance Parts
• Assign “Assignable Knob 1” to control Cutoff Frequency, including a polarity and an amount.

What I am (slowly) learning that I have to do ALSO, is
• Link Assign 1 to Assignable Knob 1, per part.

Or am I still confused?

happy holiday, badMister :) :)
Responses (23)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Take it from the Part. Each Part is an instrument... and has its own set of Filters.
Start with the Part so that it has Cutoff controlled by an AssignKnob ... then link that AssignKnob to the upper Common/Audio level... which is automatically linked to the Super Knob.

If you are editing a Factory sound... look for "Cutoff" assignment in the Control matrix. Here's how:

Press [EDIT]
Press [PART SELECT 1]
Touch "Common " blue lower left of the screen
Touch "Mod/Control" > "Control Assign"
Set the "DISPLAY FILTER" = ALL

This will display all of the assignments for this Part... there can be a maximum of 16, four per Page (use the PAGE box to view all the Destinations)
If you are editing a Factory sound you are looking for a Destination that says "CUTOFF"

Highlight that Destination and look to the SOURCE box to find out which Controller is assigned.
If you wish to change it - change the SOURCE box to the Controller you want to use.

In AWM2 Parts each Element has its own Filter which you will see can be included or not in this assignment
In FMX Parts the entire FMX sound goes through the Filter.

If programming from scratch
Now if you are programming from scratch... your assignment would be similar, you would go to the PART's "Control Assign" screen
Press "+" to Add a Destination
Touch that parameter box, select the Destination "CUTOFF"
It will be an "Element" parameter if AWM2
It will be an "FM parameter" if FM-X

Set the SOURCE = AsgnKnob1
Set the CURVE TYPE, Ratio, Parameter 1 to shape the application of control

Now when Part 1 is selected Assign Knob 1 will directly control Cutoff Frequency.

Link a Part AssignKnob to the SuperKnob
Next link Part 1's Assign Knob 1 with the Super Knob.
Press the upper [COMMON] button
Touch "Control" > "Control Assign"
Touch "+" to add a setup
Set "PART 1 ASSIGN 1"

Now when you move the Super Knob, it will in turn move Part 1's Assign Knob1
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Your "ALSO" thought was correct. There are two levels/sets of assignments to make to complete the superknob journey.

Since assignable knobs can be mode-switched as global assignable knobs or part-level (part 1-16, one part at a time for the bank of 8) - you do not have to have superknob pushing these knobs. You could turn the knob at any level. Due to this flexibility, you can either opt-in or opt-out superknob controlling any of the global knobs and then the global knobs can opt in or out of controlling any of the part-level knobs.

You can have superknob control all the global knobs - or you can have multiple global assignable knobs you control individually - one which cascades to control cutoff of all PARTs you use, another global assignable knob which cascades to control resonance of all PARTs you use, etc...

These controls which are setup to respond to hand movements is termed motion control. Motion sequence is when there is automation as in setting up time-based lanes and/or super knob automation (in both cases deals with "pulses" and "cycles";).

The nice thing about superknob vs. the assignable knobs as a control is that superknob does not change modes. So you know when you turn it what's going to happen - whereas assignable knobs are state-based and require some keeping track of the mode you set the keyboard to. Therefore, I prefer to use superknob vs. assignable knobs directly because it's easier to manage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thank you very much, Jason, and BadMister too. Jason, I think you saw more what needed clarification in my thinking, (although I signed in just now to mention a new 'discovery' which I'll detail below) and BadMister, you were pretty much 'starting from scratch.'

What I just (think I) discovered is that Assignable Knob 1 is always going to affect Part 1.
Just now, I Initialized an AWM voice, and then added a 2nd similar Part 2; and tried to get Assignable Knob 1 to control the pitches of Parts 1 and 2 (both the default piano waves) in opposite directions.
What I found was that I had to use Assignable Knob 2 Assign 2, to affect Part 2.

Or...Jason, is that ignoring the dual option that you just so clearly explained? (which I am going back to re-read as soon as I hit Submit!)

Thanks again, dudes!

(PS. very cool detuned piano effect I got with curve #9 amount ±5)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
...and BadMister, I am going to print this quote of yours and tape it over my bed:

Link a Part AssignKnob to the SuperKnob
Next link Part 1's Assign Knob 1 with the Super Knob.
Press the upper [COMMON] button
Touch "Control" > "Control Assign"
Touch "+" to add a setup
Set "PART 1 ASSIGN 1"

Thanks.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The global assignable knobs which can be directly linked to superknob have no fixed relationship with PART numbers. (Global/common) Assignable knob 8 can point to PART 3, (global/common) Assignable Knob 1 can point to PART 7. You set these relationships. There are two places to go. Using the touchscreen, when you touch the "big font" performance name and touch "edit" (left-hand popup) - this is the common area where you can set which common (global) knobs point to what PART(s).

Each PART has 8 assignable knobs - so there are 16x8 possible destinations for knobs (PARTx, A.Knob y) where x=1-16, y=1-8. 16x8 possible destinations. Any common knob can point to one or more destinations (not only knobs - some common effects/parameters too). There's a limit to how many destinations you can assign. I'm going by memory - but if it's like the PARTs - the limit is 16. So although you have 16x8=128 PART-level assignable knob destinations - you cannot assign them all at once.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
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Here's one way to look at it. I'm not showing that the Knobs 1-8 can assume more than just "Common Assignable Knob" or "PART Assignable Knob" personalities. Like Motif - the knobs can be all sorts of direct parameter modifying functions as well (effects, ARPs parameters - except tempo, etc.). Focus is on the assignable "Motion Control" oriented side of Knob 1-8 use.

http://imgh.us/SuperKnob_Picture.png

imgh.us shutting down - backup:

https://image.ibb.co/mznz1k/Super_Knob_Picture.png
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BTW: Because there are two levels of assignable knobs ("Common" and "PART";) - to say "Assignable Knob" without the Common or PART context causes some ambiguity. It can be inferred if you're talking about assigning a knob to a parameter offset destination (like volume, pitch, cutoff, etc) - then you're referring to a PART Assignable Knob. However, it may be good to keep adding the level (Common vs. PART) context when describing what you're experiencing until you've got it down. Sometimes having similar terms for distinctly different things can cause confusion.

Going off script with unofficial terms. Just how I relate to it - I think of the settings that affect all PARTs of a performance as "global" settings. So I think of the "Common Assignable Knobs" as "Performance Global Knobs" (or global knobs for short). To get to these, you click an area where you can edit the performance-level ("Common/Audio";) parameters. I would often "forget" about this section of parameters entirely early on. So now when I'm milling around looking for something, I'll be sure to check what I think of as the "global" section. At least having this internal dialog helps me map "global knobs" and "assignable knobs" as being unique by function and also label.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
What I just (think I) discovered is that Assignable Knob 1 is always going to affect Part 1.
Not for any other reason than when starting to make assignments "from scratch" programming begins with Part 1, and when assigning Knobs 1-8, it's just logical to start with 1 first... but not for any other reason.

I mean it is not true, that Assignable Knob 1 is always going to have to affect Part 1... it's just the if you read starting in the upper left corner of the page you will discover things left to right and top to bottom... it's the nature of reading that way.

You really start to understand the assignments when Part 1 Assign 6 is linked to Assign Knob 2...(and it makes sense) - check out the tutorial:
An FM-X Exploration

It takes you through to an understanding of the AssignKnobs and ultimately linking to the Super Knob assignment in a meaningful way. You can hear, see and understand how it happens.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks, J, for simplifying things! ;) :D
And thanks BadMister for the link. Especially interested in the FM angle.

It's gonna be a Long Night!
(a fun one too - hopefully - I'll end it with my brain 3 sizes larger.)

Who'd'a thunk: The Montage as an Alzheimer's Prevention device!

But semi-seriously: how often can something be a mental challenge, an adult toy, a tool for serious work, an artistic rabbit hole, and a riddle, all at once?
Yamaha has Really Done It this time!

Thanks, and I mean it. :)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
PS:
Bad Mister, I didn't just assume Knob 1 only went with Assignable 1 -
For some (apparently other) reason, I could not get Part 2 to respond until I switched Part 2's modulator to Assignable 2.
I could have sworn I had it assigned to the same Assignable Knob as Part 1 was assigned to.
First it seemed to work, then it didn't.
So I switched to Assignable 2 and it worked (again?) right off.
I didn't think it would have been that inflexible, given the instrument's almost infinite possibilities -
It was just the first thing that made it work for me.

Which brings another thought to mind.
If you, or Jason, had been looking over my shoulder, I would now know *what* it was that I'd done to lead to that result.
Therefore,
I honestly believe that Yamaha should offer one on one sessions with you guys, for a price, of course.
Playing around with the DX7 prototype in Hamamatsu on the group's visit there in 1983 gave me a real head start on understanding what to do and what not to.
One that made a difference, competitively for me, going forward, for maybe 3-4 years.

I make that my humble, and sincere suggestion.

Or if there's no way that paid one-on-one sessions would fly, then at an AES or NAMM show, could you have 10 minute 'hands on' slots, available by appointment?
I'm closer to Einstein than to Pee Wee Herman (though some would disagree, lol) - and if it's that much of a challenge to me, to delve in deep, don't you think there's some other mode of support that Yamaha would be proud to offer? Even by subscription, like Apple does. But Yamaha would do it right!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Jason, thanks for the tip about always knowing if I'm thinking "Global" (common) or "Part". Hopefully quite helpful, I think, going forward for me.

And in studying your instructions,
When you wrote:

"Each PART has 8 assignable knobs" - seeing that you mean that it has 8 inputs for assignable knobs (destinations available) helps.

Thanks.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BadMister wrote:
"Now when Part 1 is selected Assign Knob 1 will directly control Cutoff Frequency."

Aha! So the knob's destination varies with which Part is selected.

Gotta wrap my head around that.

Thank you.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Right - context can get confusing. You mentioned Einstein and he was big on relativity. If you were in one room - you would call things one thing, in a different room your view/perspective would be different so looking at the same thing - you would have a different relationship with "it".

From the perspective of the common area, there are 8 sources related to Super Knob (SK) control (motion control). They are the 6 "global" (Common) Assignable Knobs. So in this "room" the chain of events is from an outside linked controller (kind of like how the FC7 can also be an outside controller for the same thing = SK). Anyhow, staying in this room with the global/Common assignable knobs - they can be assigned destinations of lots of things including any of the 128 PART parameters. When you're picking a destination - notice "InsA/InsB, Reverb, Variation, Master Effect, AD Param" -- and then there are 16 PARTs worth of 8 A.Knobs a piece (128 things to choose from). This last section is all I've focused on although I mentioned there's some "other stuff" - mainly all global effects ("system"/"master";). But just scrolling through what your options are in this room, you'll see there's 128. As an experiment - if you press the [+] to add a destination and just let the defaults happen - keep pressing [+] until it doesn't let you. After you fill up a page (4 slots), you'll need to press the "Page >" (page right) touchscreen area. Eventually, it will stop letting you do this. And you'll notice this is when 16 destinations have been assigned. Doing this you'll also notice you have 16 of the same destination assigned to the same source. So you'll get some sense of an appreciation of the flexibility. The system doesn't limit you except for count. Routing is open-ended (open season).

So in this room (the global one) we can willy-nilly point to any PART and any PART's assignable knob.

If we stopped there - and didn't do any more programming, then we would have a caller with no receiver. The phone would ring off the hook. In other words, although superknob can control a knob and that knob can point to an assignable knob - nothing really happens until the PART's assignable knob points to a FINAL destination. So you can do lots of programming with no affect if you stop half-way.

Now from the perspective of a different room - inside any of the 16 PARTs' source/destination assignment ("Mod/Control" -> "Control Assign" screen) ... and again terms can get confusing because there is reuse of "Common" here - where "Common" under a PART means things that apply to every element/operator (a "local" global). I just think of this as "PART" and toss out the common part unless I'm directing someone to press the lower-left "Common" button. In this room, we have 8 knobs as SOURCES. So the perspective is different, now the same knob that elsewhere (global section) was a destination -- this same knob is now a source. Makes sense if you think of serial I/O like MIDI. A message starts as an output - goes through some processing - then ends up as an output - for something else to input - and on and on until the message reaches a final destination.

So in this 2nd room - we have 8 sources which themselves are controllers and can be assigned destinations that actually do something to the sound. The 8 sources are the PART Assignable Knobs -- and you can even make Montage present the physical knobs as PART Assignable knobs by pressing the right buttons or touchpad menu. Press [ASSIGN] to make sure in assignable knob mode, then "PART SELECT" Number A [1]-[8] buttons, corresponding to PART1-8 for one of the PART Assignable knob sets. Or press [ASSIGN] then [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) to make Montage present the Knobs 1-8 as Common Assignable Knobs (the global ones).

... the 8 sources here can be assigned to any of the various parameter destinations. There's a laundry list. Not completely everything you can edit - but a fairly lengthy David Letterman "top 10 list" of parameters (and a few more). I don't mention this merely to complain - but it's important to know going in where there are limitations so when you run into something you can't find - you understand it may be because it's not there. When you are milling around the interface - when you cursor over a parameter you can edit AND it's available as a destination - the [CONTROL ASSIGN] (under the Super Knob area) will glow amber. If it doesn't glow amber then this parameter although can be programmed is not one that is available as a destination parameter.

You're going to want to remember from the last room which of the 8 knobs (if any) you assigned to be controlled by Super Knob. This is a chain reaction and any break in the chain will lead to no real "reaction". So if you assigned, under the PART you're editing, only PART#x (#x=this part)-Assignable Knob #3 as being chain-connected to Super Knob - then that will be the SOURCE you need to hook up to some destination parameter. Again, just like not connecting any destinations - you also can have nothing happen if say you did have PART#x-A.Knob #3 wiggling with Superknob and you programmed instead PART#x-A.Knob #2 to a destination of cutoff . The cutoff would never change if you never programmed something to wiggle this in the previous room. Another case where you could program a lot of final destinations - but instead of the phone analogy before - this one is someone waiting on their date to arrive - but they went to the wrong location. So they would wait and wait - and they seem "stiffed". You need to keep track of the strings connecting back to Super Knob.

If you really did have 16 PARTs - then there would be a lot of possibilities (the 128 figure) - so at some point when programming these from scratch - and doing advanced things - a pencil and paper may help out.

When just editing existing material or modifying - there's less to worry about since it's relatively easy to make an incremental change.

I didn't discuss the other limitation - the destination count. In each of these two "rooms" discussed (the global/Common one, and the PART one) - there's a max of 16 destinations. The PART-level one has a new set of resources for each PART - you get 16 destinations for each PART. The global/common has only one set of 16. If you did the experiment before adding destinations - you'll see how it's easy to manufacture the limitation and you can do this experiment in the PART section just as easily -- it's the same interface.

Some presets use up lots of destinations - so you may have little room, within a pre-existing PART, to add your own. It really depends. The main point here is that if the "[+]" button is not available - no need to pull hair out. Just remember about the possibility of overfilling the destination cup. You may have to open up a new set of resources by adding a PART if you have any open slots. ... or pick and choose what to throw out of the preset/your user content in order to squeeze in a new destination.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
... you can visualize the 16 source-destination pair limitation as an old telephone operator patch panel limitation. Inside Montage, you have 17 telephone operators - each with their own patch panel.

There's the international operator that covers routing calls out of the country (this is the global/Common level) - then there are 16 regional operators which cover their own regions (these are the 16 PARTs, each with their own destination sets). Each operator is given only 16 physical patch cables - so they can only pair up 16 different pairs at a time. Matching what Montage can do - each of these patch panel calls can also conference in as many destination parties as they want to a single source caller as long as all 16 cables are not used up.

This is really just a resource issue in the routing (how many cables are available) and not having to do with either the source or destination.

If someone calls with an emergency - the operator has to throw some unimportant call out and patch through the emergency. This is you choosing to throw out some motion control feature in order to make room for another.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Let me go back to your question about the assignments and how something non-intuitive happened:

Do you still have the plastic protector on the touch screen? It has been mentioned that this may interfere with the precision of the touch screen.
Have you calibrated the touch screen recently? It may be worth doing.

I'm going down this route because I'm wondering if inadvertently, the wrong destination was picked. You can scroll through them with the DATA DIAL and press [ENTER] to select instead of the touchscreen. There's potentially lots to scroll through - but the "hyperdrive" feature of the DATA DIAL (my term) where the values increase at a faster rate the faster the DATA DIAL is spun (not just 1:1 with speed, but there is a turbo-boost that happens). So this makes short order of using the DATA dial to get through the choices if precision is needed.

Knowing about the two "rooms" (areas of settings) - you can always go back and trace your steps to see how the system is configured.

Even working backwards from presets that use the global/common assignable knobs cascaded down to PART level assignable knobs is a valid way to learn. Enough working backwards with these - and you'll have the ins/outs down. "CFX+FM EP" has interesting mappings and not too much to bite off. Easier to start with the global/common area (Common A.Knob 1 affects PART5, Common A.Knob 2 affects PART 1, 2, 3, and 4). Then you'd pick up the chain at each of those PARTs and look at the PART A.Knob that was set to wiggle upstream. The "All 9 Bars!" I think has lots of things to look at. "FM Harpsichord" is a simple one with just a single common A.knob and single PART A.Knob with a single destination. Almost every performance has some trivial to more complex mapping that you can explore.

Also, you can unlink the Super Knob. The link needs to be there in order for the first line of knob turning defense to be initiated. This is an on/off - but another chance for inadvertent pressing. If you start with a preset then "roll off" the preset and come back (reload) it - then, assuming you did not [STORE] the errant edit - the defaults may restore the settings to a working state.

There are a number of possibilities given the flexibility of what could have been the issue.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I am familiar with the intermediate parameter linking a controller with an audible parameter, from my work on the Roland XP and XV synths.

Why is the destination above the source, on the touchscreen display?
If we are dealing with causes and effects, shouldn't the cause be above the effect?

Why do we have to go to a completely different mode and page when we are on the Common/Control/Control Assign page, just to see what it is we're controlling?

(and no, the protector is not the issue here, it's long gone. (but the stickers remain :) )
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Here are some Performances i've been programming.
References
  1. https://soundcloud.com/tommy-mandel/mandelperfs1-2/s-aOnQS
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
When first getting acquainted with the interface - it wasn't plainly obvious that the squares where the destinations go are for destination parameters. The source is clearly labeled as "Source" - but there is not a visual clue because the label "Destination" is missing. I suggested simply adding such a label. You're right, the flow (order) is counter intuitive as well. The filter (for selecting a source to quickly look at) is at the top - so maybe they thought this was covered by filter-then-destination.

There is another screen to look at which shows a summary of at least the knob assignments. There's an overview screen:

Looks like this:

https://www.sud-claviers.com/imagesboutique/Image/Synthetiseurs/WorkstationsPro/montage/photos/Yamaha%20Montage17.jpg
Photo Credit: https://www.sud-claviers.com/boutique/fr/3515-montage-8.html

That doesn't cover the different areas to set these up - but does provide yet a different screen to go to if you want to review how its setup. One "beef" I have with the overview is that it doesn't cover all the sources - some are left out of the summary.

Yamaha, in general, is fond of compartmentalizing features into their own "box", "area", "room". So it sometimes places some burden on your menu diving picking up the slack of what could otherwise be a more elegant way to "hide" the complexity (without losing any flexibility). The nice thing is that there is the flexibility although you are often left thinking there's a more efficient way.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks Jason - you know I've been to that screen you just posted, but I thought it was a joke - an Easter egg hacked in there by some YamaTech with a sense of humor!
It's all starting to sink in, gradually, so thank you once again for your patience.

The COMMON button on the right, and the 3 green indicator lights on the left that tell you what the sliders are controlling...those now get a great deal of attention from me. The paradoxical 'irony' that you've gotta be in Performance Control Mode to control the Parts, is brilliant! And the added detail that depending whether you're in COMMON or not, Part Control controls different things; AND there's the Shift+ Part Control capabilities, to get into the Elements with the sliders! In-genius.

Yes, it's fine to (after some serious cogitation...) to express frustration with the way certain things have been set up to work on this miracle machine,
BUT no one said everyone has to be an olympic quality editor on it, right?! - it still has awesome sound quality, a great touch, and it's beautiful.
Plus, maybe John Melas will write and Editor for laptops - possibly with screen overlaps - one day!
(but I will be an olympic quality editor before that long!)

Take care, and thank you again!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
On the overview screen (aka confusing joke screen) can be modified to take away some of the extraneous lines if all you're concerned about is SuperKnob+Different Levels of A.Knobs.

The (fixed) "Controllers" can be turned off. They, at least in the picture shown, take up a lot of screen mess with the lines crossing over the other content which is more interesting for seeing the A.Knob connections.

You can turn off the yellow "fader" ones too - since these are not part of the A.Knob/Super Knob connections.

What you'll be left with is a less convoluted assemblage of lines and probably easier to pick out. It would be kind of cool if you could turn the DATA DIAL (or something) and single out objects one-at-a-time which would highlight the associated connections (thicker line, brighter color) and dim all other connections. But at least reducing the view to only "assignable" does help.

An interesting bit of marketing term mixing is in this screen. The manuals call the controllers that are like mixing board volume controls "sliders" while this screen calls them "faders". Seems like a slip of a term going "against" the common term "slider" adopted everywhere else in the manuals. I originally called these faders - because it's what I would have named them as well - but I now try to go with the common (from the manual) term of "slider".

I think constructive "complains" are fine. Hopefully they help inform future keyboards. Sometimes users take a negative tone -- I'm not sure this is the best approach. You've always been on the right side of this - which is cool.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 20
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