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  1. Luca
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. Wednesday, 13 January 2021
Yamaha....SHAME ON YOU!!!
This is called “planned obsolescence” and it’s a crime!
I have to throw in the trash my Motif XF 8 and my N12 Mixer (and my Cubase Pro license) because YOU DON’T WANT UPDATE the fw drivers.
It’s a real shame!
I was your first fan, now I’m your first dectrator, due to your behavior!

People, don't buy yamaha products! soon the will stop to upgrade your driver!
Responses (5)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Coming into Motif XF - the musical world was still behind firewire. I remember that time-frame that the sales force and general notion was that USB was unreliable and problematic for musical applications while FW was more stable and produced better results. At least still during the start of Motif XF.

At the time, the future "take over" of faster USB technologies and even some other variants along the way was not known. There was no plan here. The market/customers and other bigger players in technology than Yamaha eat the flavor of the month for lunch and move on to something else. Yamaha offers tried-and-true technology that's widely available in every generation. Usually a couple steps behind the bleeding-edge.

Any product that chooses an industry standard is going to be left behind because it's not the individual manufacturer - but the wider industry that decides what gets discarded and what gets kept.

Although I think Yamaha could be more aggressive with its choices (using newer bus technologies rather than using more proven/older standards) - I still think their choices for which interface(s) to place in the flagship synths has been very good.

Since the latest model doesn't do the same level of on-board audio sampling or other features - I could see feeling let down by the newer offerings not providing updated feature sets and instead electing to discard some capabilities. I can also empathize that it's rough to see the setting of the sun on cherished tools since the operating systems have moved ahead. What lots of folks do in this case is invest in an "antique" machine running older versions of the operating system. I know this kills the interoperability story with native say Cubase Pro (latest version) - but it does keep everything in-tact and "frozen". Although maybe not ideal - you could lift stems from the older computer and post-process using more modern tools.

I agree that it's sad and frustrating to see stuff like this - but it's not a design goal. It's just the way it goes.

Regardless, you're free to align with another manufacturer and hopefully they indeed will satisfy your support requirements. I mean that sincerely.
  1. 3 days ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There are many of us, you know?

I have three XF's in different places that I get to use each day if I want, and I do most days. I could buy a couple Montages if I'd like. I have worked very hard for my money just as that person that could only afford that anniversary white edition.

All of my three XF's had FW16e boards purchased and installed just after delivery. My Prized Anniversary White 88 was bought in late '14 and as with the other two, was loaded with all three boards it could take. Back then the firewire expansion board was about $250 each and the memory boards more $$.
When the Montage arrived, what year was that? Does anyone wish to remember? ....or care?
It wasn't the right thing to do after touting all the while "oh, Yamaha takes care of their older customers' investments for quite a while when they are no longer" .....well, their CASH COW.

Yes, there's quite a few of us out here who invested in Yamaha Integrity to their fullest and lost big because of an ignored simple fix.
Back then, a fully tricked out XF without tax or shipping hovered around 4K. for the 88's and less for course for my little 61.
So all the Butt-Boys in the world can say all they want, "that it happened TO Yamaha" but some of us know if our integrity was ever questioned we'd have to stand up to make that error right, whatever it was, regardless of finances and most everything else. Integrity is everything. Without it, there is no respect any longer for an individual or company.
Have a nice day.
Attachments (1)
  1. 3 days ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Coming into Motif XF - the musical world was still behind firewire. I remember that time-frame that the sales force and general notion was that USB was unreliable and problematic for musical applications while FW was more stable and produced better results. At least still during the start of Motif XF.

At the time, the future "take over" of faster USB technologies and even some other variants along the way was not known. There was no plan here. The market/customers and other bigger players in technology than Yamaha eat the flavor of the month for lunch and move on to something else. Yamaha offers tried-and-true technology that's widely available in every generation. Usually a couple steps behind the bleeding-edge.

Any product that chooses an industry standard is going to be left behind because it's not the individual manufacturer - but the wider industry that decides what gets discarded and what gets kept.

Although I think Yamaha could be more aggressive with its choices (using newer bus technologies rather than using more proven/older standards) - I still think their choices for which interface(s) to place in the flagship synths has been very good.

Since the latest model doesn't do the same level of on-board audio sampling or other features - I could see feeling let down by the newer offerings not providing updated feature sets and instead electing to discard some capabilities. I can also empathize that it's rough to see the setting of the sun on cherished tools since the operating systems have moved ahead. What lots of folks do in this case is invest in an "antique" machine running older versions of the operating system. I know this kills the interoperability story with native say Cubase Pro (latest version) - but it does keep everything in-tact and "frozen". Although maybe not ideal - you could lift stems from the older computer and post-process using more modern tools.

I agree that it's sad and frustrating to see stuff like this - but it's not a design goal. It's just the way it goes.

Regardless, you're free to align with another manufacturer and hopefully they indeed will satisfy your support requirements. I mean that sincerely.




The point is that this is not an hardware problem. This is a software/driver problem. It's just a matter of updating Yamaha Steinberg FireWire drivers an its panel to 64 bit version, so it will be compatible with new macos Catalina and Big Sur (and future ones). so we can continue using Motif (and N12 for me) also with new macs and new Cubase (or other daws). It's not a matter about technologies, standard, programs for the future... It's just a stupid 64 bit version of the driver! Obviusly, if I upgrade my keyboard or my digital mixer I will find new standard and new technologies, but if I just update my software I want the chance to do this.

Looking to other products or brands, I still can't find something like Yamaha n12 mixer, with midi and audio bidirectional and multitrack over one cable connection (usb 3?) to update my system. Not even Yamaha has it. MG mixers are usb2 bringing just a L/R twi channel to the daw. And no bridge from the motif/montage to the computer (N12 has two fw port, one connection from motif xx, the other on to the mac). Nothing like this. So, they don't want to update my YSFW driver but they don't give me alternative solutions to buy.
This is more sad and frustrating.
  1. 3 days ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There are many of us, you know?

I have three XF's in different places that I get to use each day if I want, and I do most days. I could buy a couple Montages if I'd like. I have worked very hard for my money just as that person that could only afford that anniversary white edition.

All of my three XF's had FW16e boards purchased and installed just after delivery. My Prized Anniversary White 88 was bought in late '14 and as with the other two, was loaded with all three boards it could take. Back then the firewire expansion board was about $250 each and the memory boards more $$.
When the Montage arrived, what year was that? Does anyone wish to remember? ....or care?
It wasn't the right thing to do after touting all the while "oh, Yamaha takes care of their older customers' investments for quite a while when they are no longer" .....well, their CASH COW.

Yes, there's quite a few of us out here who invested in Yamaha Integrity to their fullest and lost big because of an ignored simple fix.
Back then, a fully tricked out XF without tax or shipping hovered around 4K. for the 88's and less for course for my little 61.
So all the Butt-Boys in the world can say all they want, "that it happened TO Yamaha" but some of us know if our integrity was ever questioned we'd have to stand up to make that error right, whatever it was, regardless of finances and most everything else. Integrity is everything. Without it, there is no respect any longer for an individual or company.
Have a nice day.


You're right, I absolutely agree
  1. 3 days ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I agree that it's sad and frustrating to see stuff like this - but it's not a design goal.

I think you might be reading something into this that isn't there, or otherwise glossing over an important distinction. The frustration here is not (and should not be) directed toward the engineers and visionaries who designed the hardware and software. Yamaha's software and hardware design departments are world-class, even when accounting for foibles like the Montage MIDI implementation. That's why we're all here having this conversation in the first place.

The problems come from an entirely different wing of the company. This wing is filled with people who bring no value to the world aside from maximizing Yamaha's profit to the greatest degree that is legally and realistically possible. Unfortunately, the law provides for an avenue in which Yamaha's profits are able to grow significantly at the expense of product longevity. It's thanks to that part of the company that firmware updates and drivers are locked-down and eventually left to rot.

I can't imagine that the brilliant people who poured their blood, sweat, and tears into these products would ever want to see anything other than for those products to do as much as they possibly can for as long as they possibly can.

Unfortunately, unlike those designers, the individuals with the most influence over the company at the end of the day are not interested in the creation of musical instruments which are truly as high-quality and long-lasting as possible. As it stands, that is not the avenue toward maximizing profit.

Due to business culture and legal climate, it is more profitable for Yamaha-at-large to stifle the long-term growth of their products. This is done through a combination of withdrawing support (understandable) and throwing away the keys (unconscionable). This is all logical, predictable, and business as usual, given the state of legislation which all of us living in democracies have collectively made ourselves comfortable with: to the extent that we're comfortable saying things like "It's just the way it goes."

So, to say that it is "obsolescence by design" would be incorrect if we are speaking of Yamaha's engineering department. But it's entirely fair to say when speaking about Yamaha in general, because the engineering department is a very small part of that picture. Just as an intentional omission of the truth can be fairly described as a lie, neglect in combination with obstruction can be described as planned obsolescence.

The sad truth is that, because this is a problem with what businesses are legally allowed to do when it comes to locking-down their software and hardware (as well as what individuals aren't allowed to do in regards to removing those locks-- see: the DMCA, 17 U.S.C. 1201), there is really nowhere else to go for musicians. The same problems will be found at Roland, as well as at Korg, as well as at Kurzweil, and anywhere else you might care to take your money. And it remains the case that Yamaha makes the best products, despite their effective artificial expiration dates.

Perhaps the best thing we can do as customers of professional audio equipment, aside from relevant action as citizens of the democracies which allow businesses to operate in this way, is to entirely abandon the workstation market. When you take a dozen excellent products and tie them together inseparably in a single box, as long as the reality of business remains such as it is, we all stand to lose more from obsolescence at the end of the day.
  1. 3 days ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 5
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