Don't ask how, but a short circuit happened, arcing over my Montage 8

Sorry, I have to ask.... how? You stress all of the symptoms but gloss over the actual cause. What short circuit? “Arcing” what? We’re you struck by lightning? Are you okay?

Make sure the Volume parameter is set to 127
I’ve had musician’s play a MIDI file with a fade out, and thought they blew up their keyboard, don’t laugh.

Bad Mister wrote:
Make sure the Volume parameter is set to 127
I’ve had musician’s play a MIDI file with a fade out, and thought they blew up their keyboard, don’t laugh.

I dig

Hi BadMister. I have the USB output going into DP, (with Montage as the Master Clock) and that is producing sound. I've sent it MIDI Volume =127, and yes, the Volume Parameter = 127; plus there is a hiss coming thru the audio outs that gets louder and softer as I raise the Montage 8's hardware Volume slider, so I'm pretty sure there is damage. Probably that super-circuit that makes the analog outputs (and headphone out?) sound so pleasing. Or did, until the following occurred -
Here's how it happened:
I was in Chinatown last year, and bought about 4 feet of this LED lighting inside a plastic tube, that i use to illuminate some buttons and sliders for part of my production studio when I'm playing with less than full lighting on in the room. It never seems to stay positioned properly, so once again, I was moving it around, as it's flexible. About 3/4 inch thick, by about an inch, by about four feet long. Well unbeknownst to me, on the very end of this lighting strip, the tips of two wires were exposed. Perhaps the cap on the end had fallen off. ("Forget it, Mister, it's Chinatown" So the end of this strip made contact with the Montage's top (the side with the screen and all the buttons, knobs and sliders) and yes, sparks flew.

I registered it at Yamaha's website exactly 1 year ago on Monday. I'm hoping it is under warranty, and unless I hear back from you soon, I will take it to one of the 4 authorized places the website gave me which are closest to my zip code (to use a phrase in a different context): You know where I live. It's an 8, so I'm not sure if my back will hold up, but that's my plan. Thanks, BadM. PS, I'm okay, thank Goodness.

Chris wrote:

I feel your pain. Sorry to hear that. you need to contact customer support here https://usa.yamaha.com/support/contacts/pac/

Thanks, Chris!

This thing sounds so awesome through the USB output at 96k.
Barring clocking issues with DP, which do crop up from time to time, even with Montage as the master,
Maybe I'll just wait to get it fixed...I think it has grown roots here anyway. I'll never be able to lift it.

But on a more serious note, I will let this forum know what happens when Yamaha replies to my Support Contact submission, or one of the Service Centers responds, probably during the week. SO no warranty bliss I guess...

Thanks, BadM and Chris for your reaching out.

I also use LED lighting all around all of my gear. That exactly like the rope you're talking about but it has the AC adapters jacks that could get pulled out the land on the top of my gear. Usually the ground is on the outside and the center pin is hot. My Genos has a plastic top but my Montage, CP1, Deepminds and MatrixBrute are metal. I'll keep your accident in mind and I might tape some cords in a safer position from now on. Sorry to hear about your electrifying performance, no pun intended.

Exactly, David. Thanks for the understanding, and sympathy. Glad you're taking precautions!

david wrote:

I also use LED lighting all around all of my gear. That exactly like the rope you're talking about but it has the AC adapters jacks that could get pulled out the land on the top of my gear. Usually the ground is on the outside and the center pin is hot. My Genos has a plastic top but my Montage, CP1, Deepminds and MatrixBrute are metal. I'll keep your accident in mind and I might tape some cords in a safer position from now on. Sorry to hear about your electrifying performance, no pun intended.

You do not go into much detail about the electrical properties of the LED light strip. Two exposed wires could carry some low voltage (and low current) that the LEDs themselves use - say 3.3V at 25mA. If the LED light strip plugs into a wall socket (you don't really say) then my assumption is that exposed wires are approx 120V AC and will deliver 15A worth of current (at least) as this is the fuse-box breaker max before tripping the over-current of a typical wall socket.

Given the arcing and damage - I imagine the wall socket 120V/15A shorted with earth ground ("Chassis Ground" of Montage. I do not have the Montage schematics - but it is typical for the chassis to be tied to the "round fat toothpick" (ground) part of the wall socket which kind of looks like the mouth and thin vertical lines of a wall plug are the power delivery. Sometimes people either break off the ground lead of a cable or use an adapter that does not have the ground connection in order to do a "ground lift". If this is done, then you defeat the safety property of tying the chassis to earth ground which carries with it the potential for electrical shock for the user. Also, in cases like this when you short power to the chassis ground - the current has to travel through the power lines instead of earth ground to reach its final destination. This can be problematic as the current induced will jump around trying to find earth ground (similar to lightning).

I'm not sure the warranty covers if you shoot your keyboard with a shotgun - or short out 120V with the chassis. It's worth a "shot" - but expensive equipment deserves accessories that are of quality construction which generally rules out dollar-store class accessories or bottom-dollar "no-name" China (or any other country's) junk that generally breaks as you bring it to the cash register. Live and learn.

I think the arc of 15 (or more) amps of a mid-range voltage (120V) shot through random parts of your keyboard's circuitry. The tech may be able to see scarring/delamination of the PCB or damaged components. Every component has its limit and the DC portion of the design is not going to tolerate a 120V potential - nor do these components tolerate several amps of current. If the design uses tantalum caps - then these tend to "pop" when electrically overstressed and themselves can be a short-circuit issue. Removing damaged caps often is a quick fix - but you may have much more than just caps gone bad.

This isn't something the casual shade-tree mechanic is going to be able to fix. Given the cost for labor - the best bet may be to swap out an entire board or boards. Again, I do not have the schematics nor have I torn open a Montage. Going by past keyboards - it is typical for the analog output stage to have its own PCB assembly. If this is really all that is damaged - then this would be one of the cheaper boards to purchase from parts and have replaced. For this type of job without any debug - you could use a casual shade-tree mechanic type repair tech. One who follows proper guidelines for handling of PCBs and isn't going to bull-in-a-China-shop (as in "fine China" the innards of your keyboard or the enclosure itself.

You've seen where going cheap got you before - so strike some balance that gets you a qualified repair tech.

The lack of green bars on the mixer output does not agree with the theory that only your final output stage is the problem. I'm not sure I understand which green bars you're referring to. If the bars somehow relate to just the Main L&R and not each individual part - then this could still be some sort of final output stage issue if that DAC provides the level feedback. But if you're looking at individual PART level green lines - then this points to problems further down closer to the root of this tree and not just the Main L&R branch.

If I shot my keyboard with a shotgun - I don't think I would get very definitive answers from polling the forum for what went wrong or otherwise having someone characterize the failure without looking inside the unit.

You're going to need either pay someone to deal with this or get a new keyboard and sell the one you have for parts while disclosing how it was damaged.

... on first glance of Chris's page - I didn't see the other link had a "Find a service location" link next to a wrench. So I provided below -- but it's redundant since the link Chris provided leads you to the same place. I'll leave the information here even though now I see it is a bit redundant.

FYI - Yamaha Synthesizer service centers are listed by navigating to:

https://www.yamaha.com/paragon/servicerlocator/

Choose the "keyboard instruments" then "synthesizers" then type in your preferred zip code. When I use 10001, I see:

Rogue Music
220 W 30th St, Ground Floor
NY, NY 10001
Distance: 0 mi.
Tel: (212) 629-3708

EXPERT AUDIO REPAIRS & SERVICE
40 West 27 St. 9th Floor
NEW YORK, NY 10001
Distance: 0 mi.
Tel: (212) 868-4357

ARMENS REPAIR SHOP
347 W 36TH ST, # 103
NEW YORK, NY 10018
Distance: 0.33 mi.
Tel: (212) 563-4514

DBM PRO AUDIO/MUSIC SERVICES
320 WEST 37TH STREET, 5TH FLR
NEW YORK, NY 10018
Distance: 0.33 mi.
Tel: (212) 629-0326

DOUBLE-TAKE MUSIC & SOUND PROD
1650 BROADWAY, SUITE 608
NEW YORK, NY 10019
Distance: 1.10 mi.
Tel: (212) 685-7900

COMPUCAL BUSINESS SYSTEMS, INC.
347 EAST 53RD ST
NEW YORK, NY 10022
Distance: 1.59 mi.
Tel: (212) 695-7717

PETER KERMAN FAVANT
552 RIVERSIDE DRIVE #2E
NEW YORK, NY 10027
Distance: 4.58 mi.
Tel: (917) 334-7031

H.R. AUDIO VIDEO INC.
60 WORTH STREET
SOUTH HACKENSACK, NJ 07606
Distance: 7.68 mi.
Tel: (201) 343-3554

HEAVY ELECTRONICS AND SECURITY, INC
2075 86TH ST
BROOKLYN, NY 11214
Distance: 10.32 mi.
Tel: (718) 946-9000

TRIPLE S, INC.
299 BROAD ST.
BLOOMFIELD, NJ 07003
Distance: 10.38 mi.
Tel: (973) 748-4025

NEW JERSEY FACTORY SERVICE, INC.
16 CHESTNUT AVE, SUITE 103 B
EMERSON, NJ 07630
Distance: 15.31 mi.
Tel: (201) 967-0060

TECHNI-SERVE INDUSTRIES, L.L.C.
80 GREENWOOD AVE STE 3
MIDLAND PARK, NJ 07432
Distance: 18.27 mi.
Tel: (201) 670-1767

The same page recommends calling each shop to get more details. You can also fish around for reviews for each.

Might I recommend a go fund me initiative and let the Yamahasynth patrons know. Maybe we can contribute to your repairs or replacement. Many of us are really nice guys.

Thanks david!

There ARE green lights on the mixer, Jason, I specifically mentioned that.

dBm Fixed it. It was just the one audio board, but labor was quite intensive, due to the interaction of the boards during their analysis of the problem. If it had been 2 or 3 boards that needed replacing, it would have been a lot costlier, so I'm lucky.
I just got it back. Originally, Yamaha said they would pay for it, because it was still just under one year since I'd bought it, but dBm, seeing that it was a user-created issue, said that wasn't how things worked. The repair cost was fair, and dBm fixed it and turned it back to me very expeditiously (quickly.) Thanks to Steve at dBm!!!

Now. Does anyone know if there's a way to upload the SY99 EP sound, Night Hawk, into the Montage? thanks

Confession: I've been cheating!
While Monty Montage was out at the Hospital getting stitched back together from those nasty battle wounds,
I met someone else.
Jupiter-80 was languishing on reverb.com, at as good a price as I'd found there for poor injured Monty Montage.
It was in San Francisco, pick-up only.
But once our eyes met (on youtube video chats) I just HAD to have her.

She and I are Together now.
Her analog is frighteningly realistic, warm and creamy. We're talking ten layers of Tones here.
She's Monty Montage's Match.

In fact, now they're sitting next to each other here, and I half expect them to be holding hands soon, via USB or Midi...
And then she'll have no use for me.

On that SY99 voice question, when is SampleRobot going to come available to us for free? That should do the trick.

Hi again david,
I just found a really close one on the Montage - Nu Hybrid EP - sounds nice!

@Tommy:

My comment about the lack of specifics was prompted by not knowing which of the green lights on the mixer were working - since there are lights for individual parts and also the audio path "AD" and "Digi". When posting by memory - I thought there may have also been a green light for the Main L&R output - I don't see that (my own limits to memory). I did see the mixer called out - just wasn't sure what the details were about which of the myriad channels were showing activity and which were not (if any).

At any rate - glad you could get your board safely back from the hospital and that you may have gained something more out of the process in "Monty's" absence.

Much thanks Jason. Your input is always caring, educated, and appreciated. Yeah, that's actually one of the things I think could be clearer in the metering on the Montage: sometimes a channel strip maybe sounding due to an offset that a controller routing has enabled, but you can pull the fader down and still hear it; makes things tougher to trace, though I have hopes 2.0 will make some of this easier, especially with the new 'hold down Assign and move a controller, and that will take you to its assign page' (which hasn't worked for me yet, so I'll have to go back to the Read Me's and learn it properly) - the other ramification of this type of situation is no green on a meter when that channel may be playing a part in producing audio.

About the Fader... Don't look to 2.00 for your answer. Let me try to explain... the Fader position is not the end all Volume Control. The channel fader can be used to set the Channel volume and is represented by cc007 in MIDI. The Fader can, under certain conditions be deactivated as Control:
1) by setting the RECEIVE SWITCH for Vol/Exp = Off for the Part.
2) by assigning "Part Volume” to another physical Control
3) by assigning a variety of parameters that influence output level as influencers (Element Level, Filter Cutoff, Side Chain Modulation... etc)

When you take the metaphor too far you start thinking you are manipulating audio. You are influencing the result... this will eventually influence audio, but technically speaking no audio runs through that Fader. (Just a reality check).

The control over an instrument part's volume output can be under control of the Fader or the responsibility can be placed elsewhere

As to tracking down what is actually influencing a Part's perceived output level... if you've forgotten that you have biased control over the output level of to another controller or if you're studying another programmer's work... the method we have been laying out in the current tutorial articles is to start by viewing the OVERVIEW screen [SHIFT] + [HOME]... then proceed to view the Control Assign screen for that Part.

OVERVIEW screen:
If the FADER has been deactivated ("Vol/Exp" Receive Sw= Off) no tan FADER will connect the Fader and the PART in the COMMON view... moving the Fader will not influence the red LED light.
If the Fader is not responsible for Part Volume you can find what is by exploring the Control Assignments.

If you want to see what is programmed in a particular Part, set the OVERVIEW to that Part, and take the "wormhole" shortcut directly to the "Edit Part x Control Settings".

CONTROL ASSIGN screen
Once here, you can either set the DISPLAY FILTER = "All" (this will show the potential sixteen Control Sets, four per Page) or activate "Auto Select" (green)... this so you can explore each parameter assignment. You are looking for things that can influence audio output level... these include "Elem Level", "Volume" (Part Volume), "Cutoff", Insertion Effect parameters, Envelope Generator parameters, etc. there are many things that can also influence volume... hey, it could be in the ARP phrase.

The Fader is a 'technician hat' thing. Before the signal reaches the engineer the musician (in the musician hat) has many ways to control the output level... they can even take control over the output level directly.

Tommy,
Glad you got your board back. This is the first time I've seen this post and was going to suggest that it's one of the circuit boards and most likely it fried a chip or two. Anyways, your problem is solved. What I do want to ask is the Montage is so lighted and colorful by itself, why put more lights on it? Just curious.
Be careful, as the Montage has a metal case (I like that myself) it is more prone to pick up static shocks and easily pick up an outside voltage shock (like the one you found out about). The unit itself is grounded, but I'm now wondering if adding another ground to the case itself might be worth the effort if you have other electronics or lights near or on the unit itself.
Good luck, and keep your board safe... :-)