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  1. Jayson
  2. MONTAGE
  3. Sunday, 29 March 2020
I have been trying to learn about programming the assignable knobs and super knob by reading articles from Yamaha and watching YouTube videos. I was trying to use the super knob to control resonance and cutoff for 2 parts in a 4 part performance and also have the super knob control volume of those 2 parts. It is all still vary confusing and I wish there was a comprehensive lesson that went through all the details of each menu option. For instance, I tried programming the volume of one of the parts (of a 4 part performance) to the super knob using the assign button and turning the super knob (with the part volume selected) and the screen said that no more assignments were available. I went into the edit mode to view all the parts assigned to the super knob by selecting (all) and I could only see 6 destinations were filled. Is 6 the most assignments that can be made? I really want to learn this and have spent a lot of time milling around the internet only to find piecemeal information. I guess I have a basic understanding that the super knob can be assigned to 8 assignable knobs. Each knob for each part can then be assigned to several subcategories to control fx and element parameters etc. There has to be a good comprehensive reference somewhere that I have missed out on.

Thanks,

JM
Responses (4)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
GOAL:
I was trying to use the super knob to control resonance and cutoff for 2 parts in a 4 part performance and also have the super knob control volume of those 2 parts.
The steps to do this are easy enough. What is difficult is there is already programming you are inheriting. Respect it or you WILL GET LOST... or perhaps you’ll run out of assignments and not be able to determine why?

It is all still vary confusing and I wish there was a comprehensive lesson that went through all the details of each menu option.
There are several, but no lesson can be comprehensive enough to detail every menu option. Your best bet for every menu item is the Reference Manual — it covers every parameter. It cannot cover how changing that one parameter will impact others (impossible), however.

RESULT:
...the screen said that no more assignments were available.
Starting with someone else’s programming carries the requirement that you study, learn and perhaps eliminate some of the programming that is already there. If you followed any of the YamahaSynth tutorials on programming the Super Knob, you are beginning to understand why we started with very minimalist programs — specifically so you would not inherit a lot of programming. Running out of assignments can only happen when you start with someone else’s programming.

_ You need to ask what has the original programmer already done?
_ Are there already Controllers assigned to Part Volume?
_ Are there already Controllers assigned to Cutoff and Resonance?
_ Will what I’m getting ready to try work with what is already programmed?
_ Or will it conflict?

Each Part has sixteen Control Set “Source/Destinations“
The upper Common/Audio level has sixteen Control Set ”Source/Destinations”
Each Part has eight Assign Knobs
The upper Common/Audio level has eight Assign Knobs which initially are *linked* to the Super Knob.

CONCLUSION: It is probably best to learn with simple programming — then once you have the fundamentals down, jump into changing existing programming. If you cannot wait or are too impatient, Or if starting with a minimum is not how you learn (We all learn best under different circumstances) then we recommend at least learning to explore the Performance with the goal of finding IF any of what you wish to accomplish is already programmed.

The tutorials here on YamahaSynth unfold (a little at a time) the methods to explore.
The MONTAGifying Motif XF tutorial series... take apart previous programming and allow you add to it. Why this is good for those that don’t want to start “from scratch” (minimalistic programming) to dive into the middle of the pool (deeper water). Since the Motif XF examples have only four Parts maximum, two Assign Knobs maximum, and only 6 Control Sets maximum, you are free to expand and experiment. 6 additional Assign Knobs are available per Part, four additional Parts are available per Performance, plus 10 additional Control Sets per Part!

Why it is complex:
Setting up to control Part VOLUME with the Super Knob will work as expected if, and only if, what you add is not in CONFLICT with what the original programmer did. Does that make sense? Say you program the Super Knob to turn down a Part, while the original programmer has the Super Knob programmed to turn up the same Part... you will be unnecessarily frustrated because the results you get will not be what you expect.

More subtle, but just as confusing would be, if as you state in your goal... say you assign the volume control, the cutoff and resonance change... but by the time the filter opens to where you want it, the volume has been turned down so much you can no longer hear the sound! So not only must you learn to make the Control assignment, you must learn to scale the depth of the parameter response so it accomplishes the filter setting change while the volume still is enough to hear it!

QUESTION FOR YOU:
Since you don’t mention which factory sounds you are working with — you apparently don’t want us to help you with it specifically.
What do you want to learn to do first? If you were to attend a ****** to learn programming the Super Knob, and the instructor dropped you into a 4 Part Performance as your first lesson... get your money back. No logical person would begin there. Your piano teacher did not start you with Bach four part inventions, nor did they drop a Liszt or Rachmaninov piece on you either!

The tutorials on the Super Knob try to take you through some of the basic concepts without all of the noise of having to wade through a complex network of interacting parameters — until it has established the fundamentals.
The MONTAGifying series are a bit more advanced and show off how the MONTAGE expanded on the concepts introduced by the XF.

Would you care to start with a Factory sound or with an initialized sound?
You could start with a Factory Preset, but we recommend IF YOUR GOAL IS LEARN - delete all Controller assignments and then create your own Controller setups.
IF YOUR GOAL IS TO CUSTOMIZE A PRESET - we still recommend delete all Controller assignments and then create your own based on what YOU want to accomplish.

Tutorial Series:
MONTAGifying Motif XF Article Series

MONTAGE In Depth Programming Series
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks for the help. I appreciate the above references and will study them.

I will take your advice and use simple 1 part voices when I build a part.

I was able to build a 4 part sound. I deleted every common assignment and part assignment so the all category had no destinations. I assigned Volume to Part 2 Assign Knob 2 and Volume to Part 3 Assign Knob 3. Then I was able to map the Super Knob to knobs 2 and 3 while setting the output range of the super knob for each assigned knob. Works for now.

Part 1 CFX Studio
Part 2 Analog Pad
Part 3 Ballad Strings
Part 4 Fretless Bass

You were saying how the programmers of each performance sometimes build in complicated controller assignments that I could mess them up or create conflicts by trying to change them. I was wondering how the montage organizes or prioritizes the assignments when I layer sounds in a performance. It would seem there would be some conflicts in the controller assignments. For instance if a performance has maxed out the super knob assignments on one performance and then I layer another sound.that also has a super knob assignment - which takes priority?

JM
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
You were saying how the programmers of each performance sometimes build in complicated controller assignments that I could mess them up or create conflicts by trying to change them. I was wondering how the montage organizes or prioritizes the assignments when I layer sounds in a performance. It would seem there would be some conflicts in the controller assignments. For instance if a performance has maxed out the super knob assignments on one performance and then I layer another sound.that also has a super knob assignment - which takes priority?
Excellent question!

Here’s how it works. The Part Assignments remain in tact, exactly as they are originally programmed when you merge. Therefore, when combining (merging) two Performances the newly merged Part(s) will keep all of its Part Settings, including all of its Part Controller Assignments and they will be automatically brought along and activated in the new Performance.

What is not activated is the upper Common/Audio level of programming — none of the Super Knob links and none of its upper Common assignments or parameters are activated in the new home. For two very good reasons:
1) there are only 16 Control Sets (Source/Destinations) on the upper level of any Performance... you must first determine if an Assignment can be made — is one available. If as you query, they are all used, you have none you could add.
2) in its original Home the Part numbers are different. What was in Part 1 is no longer going to be occupying Part 1 after you merge it, so automatically activating the Knob Assignments would be illogical... chaos would ensue.

Each Performance can have 16 Parts... each Part has its own Part Assignments. But there is only one upper Common/Audio set of Assignments and Settings to rule over all 16 Parts. They *share* those upper Common/Audio settings.

Whatever is programmed on the upper level of the program is shared by all the Parts and must work without conflict.

You can understand this easily, using your example: if a Performance has maxed out the Super Knob assignments and then you merge another, that new one brings along nothing from that upper Common level...

The upper Common level of the architecture includes the “Performance Name” (not brought in by merging — your newly merged Part will share the “Performance Name” with the others), the “A/D Input” configuration (not brought in - there is only one A/D setup), the overall Performance VOLUME (not brought in — the Part Volume is), the REVERB, the VARIATION, the MASTER EFFECTs (are not brought in), etc., etc., when you “merge” you merge only the Part parameters, not the upper level of parameters.

Think of a “Part” as a musician... add a musician to the original Performance (the band), they can bring along their instrument, they can bring along their own personal Insertion Effects (2), and all the Controller assignments that deal with their personal instrument, but they don’t rename the band, they don’t bring along their own room acoustics (they join the other members in the room they all are in together).

So what happens to the Super Knob programming of the merged (added) Part?
It is held in a temporary buffer, where you can, on a case-by-case basis, you can recall the assignment, review what it did previously and then you can decide if you wish to implement it in this new Performance.

The system is ‘smart’ enough to make the adjustment when you go to “+” a Control Destination, you tell it what the Part’s number has been shifted to, and will recall the previous control setup, automatically. It will recall the previous assignment’s settings from the inactive buffer.

If you have a DESTINATION “+” slot available, tapping it and selecting the Part number will show you what was previously being controlled by the Assign Knobs and you can activate the ones you want to link to the Super Knob in this new context.

But only if you have an available Control Set, can you tap that “+” to add a new Controller Destination.
Some assignments will make sense, others will not. If in the original Home, the merged Part was controlling the number of repeats in the VARIATION EFFECT (Delay)... but in this new Performance the Variation Effect is set to something entirely different, you would opt NOT to activate this. But if the Super Knob was controlling fading this Part into the mix, you might want to activate this Control Set, and review it movement.

The system avoids making serendipitous assignments. You must sign off on them... each by each.
It is possible to assign multiple things to a Knob, but you must review each one... the reasons will become more clear as you begin to program. Not all Common Assign Knobs will be moving in the direction you wish to change a parameter, which means you should either alter the original programming, or link it with a Knob already heading in the direction you desire. One of the strengths of the Knob Assign System here is the ability to customize exactly the range and direction of change to multiple parameters, and that a single gesture adjusts them all simultaneously.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Here's my take on "conflicts" - I didn't really see scenarios spelled out.

Lets say the programmer assigned PART 1's Assignable Knob #1 to control the PART volume. When the knob is set to 12 o'clock (controller value of 64) then the PART volume will be offset by +64. Say the Part 1 Assignable Knob #1 default value when you switch to the Performance is 64 (12 o'clock). And say the PART volume parameter setting is 64. By this programming - the PART's volume will default to 127 (maximum).

So here's an example of a possible conflict - there's already one controller that offsets volume - and right now it's adding +64 to the programmed value.

Say you program the superknob to control PART 1's volume. When you spin the knob, it goes from adding 0 to the level to adding 127 to the level. But the level is already offset to a final value of 127 by the first assignment - so superknob doesn't change the offset value at all.

Say you spin the Assignable Knob #1 to 3 o'clock so the original programmer's controller is now offset by +32. So, with just the original programmer's offset - the final value is the programmed value of 64 + 32 offset of assignable knob #1 = 96. Then you apply your offset by the second controller which can be to add between 0 and 127. You'll hear some difference at the lower range of superknob - but not the entire range.

So it's not really a conflict - but the total of offsets are the sum between the two assignments. Really - what you have to know is that if you expect any result - you need to know all of the controllers that are offsetting the parameter you'll controlling.

... that said - the programmed value may have a "conflict" with your goal. Say the programmed value of the PART volume is 127 and you apply a unipolar positive curve to offset PART volume. You'll never hear any change in the volume because the volume is already at max and your programming only adds - but you can't add more. OK - say you change to a negative curve. Now spinning the superknob CLOCKWISE will make the volume decrease. It may seem backwards (relationship of rotation vs. volume). Often times what you -may- want to do is adjust the programmed value in conjunction with your controller assignment.

The fix that would work for all in this example would be to use a bipolar curve so the curve can both add and subtract to the programmed value.

Even a bipolar curve isn't going to "fix" if there's another offset that is offsetting volume at +127.

The name of the game is really to realize ALL programmed destinations with the parameter you're targeting - and make sure you understand the consequence if there's already an assignment to that destination (like PART volume).

You don't necessarily have to clear out every assignment. But you can search for the destination in the menu accessed by PART edit, common, "Mod/Control" -> "Control Assign" menu.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
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