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  1. David
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. Monday, 25 May 2020
I have never used or connected a Midi cable to either keyboards for any reason. I have always connected to my computer with the usb's. I have an M Audio UNO. 1 USB connector tip to the dual 1 IN and 1 OUT 5 PINs. Would I use this with the Computer only for MIDI? Or could I use it to connect the Motif to Montage? In the Owners manual it shows a MIDI in to MIDI out cable which I don't have (Yet), to connect the Motif to Montage?
My Goal. I created all my old drum patterns and sections using the Pattern mode on the Motif. I saved all my info to smart media cards. If I connect the Motif to the Montage, I would be able to send all the midi notes so I can use the Montages drum kits (Parts) to rerecord all my old songs plus store all the midi notes in my User files?
I would be able to rerecord all of my old songs drum parts and sections using the Montages Parts, Drum kits, arpeggios, using the Pattern sequencer. Plus I'd be able to use the Pattern Chain feature to link all my sections to turn them into full linear song structures this time, I'd be able to set them to Scenes in Performance mode to play along to Also?
Instead of just sending all that MIDI to my Daw (LOGIC PRO X) where I would have to find those matching software instruments + drum kits and set them all up, When I could do all of that here on this Montage.
I'd be able to find+pick all the matching drum kits here on Montage and send/receive all the MIDI notes on both this keyboard and computer for extra finishing touches. And file back ups.

I started to use the Motif with my DAW, but noticed I had a lot of notes I had to fix here and there because of differences of the DAWS piano rolls note placements. On my Motif the note would be a high hat on G#3 but on the computer it would be a cow bell. etc., etc., etc. Some voices matched the keyboard while others don't come close. Yamaha has I think kept there drum kits voices on the same keys on both my keyboards. At least I haven't noticed to much in differences. The Montage sounds way, way better though.
Ultimately I will get way more comfortable with this Montage since I just got it a week ago.
I want to start recording my own arpeggios, and put together my own new performances. I've got a lot of plans with this machine.

Any information is greatly appreciated.
And THANKS again YAMAHA.
Responses (11)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
If you want your Montage to receive MIDI from your Motif ES - then connect a MIDI cable (5 pin DIN) between Montage and the Motif ES. Just a single MIDI cable will work for this. Connect one end of the cable to Montage's MIDI IN port and connect the other end to Motif ES's MIDI OUT port. Make sure your mode is set to MIDI mode and not USB mode. You could remove the USB cable from the "USB TO HOST" port of Montage since the computer is not needed for this workflow.

Note that you COULD have the same MIDI cable configuration outlined above (5 pin MIDI connections) -AND- have Montage set to USB MIDI mode -AND- have a computer connected to Montage's "USB TO HOST" port with a cable. This would allow for you to both use the DAW and have the Motif "talk" to your Montage. However, some extra setup on your DAW is required. You have to ensure that MIDI data is routed from Montage's MIDI Port-3 to Montage's MIDI Port-1. When Montage is configured in USB mode the 5-pin MIDI data is transferred to the computer using MIDI Port-3. And the Montage's tone engine uses MIDI Port-1. Therefore, your DAW has to route the data between the two Ports (3 and 1) in order to have the Motif ES's data to make its way to the Montage tone engine.

Also be aware there may be other things to clean up. I don't know about Motif ES - but between Motif XF and Montage - the default CC value for the ribbon controller changed. So if any of the data your Motif outputs is for the ribbon controller - that CC data may need to change. In general, check to see the CC assignments between Motif ES and Montage match up.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I will use the one (right) MIDI cable. I will set the Motif's mode to MIDI. I will leave the USB cord connected. I checked the computer ports. They are set (active) ports 1 & 3. I will double check the CC's assignments on both keyboards to make sure they match.

I then would create a New performance on the Montage. Pick some Drum kits for the Parts. Press play on the Motif and I will/should get sound from the Montage?
The MIDI from the Motif will sound any Parts I choose on the Montage? If I play 1 voice (Motif), it will play 1 Part (Montage), or if I play a 4 part performance (Motif) it will sound the 4 Parts i picked on (Montage) up to 8 Parts? I wont be getting any sounds from the Motif since the signal/s will be just MIDI Data. But the signal will go thru the Montage's Tone engine for Parts I picked and those are what will sound?

I still want to make use of my Motif. But I can only use it to record MIDI to the computer and record 4 part performances to 1 audio track on the computer using an audio interface, since it only uses the Yamaha driver and not the Stienburg one.
That's one of the biggest reasons I bought the Montage.

THANK YOU JASON
I am just trying to set things up the right way this once so I can just create/write, rehearse, play and record.

THANKS AGAIN
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
When you select MIDI mode - your computer won't be able to "talk" anymore to Montage. So just be aware. You need to change the mode to USB if you want to involve the computer. Switching back and forth between modes may or may not be a big deal to you. Re-configuring setups depending on what you are trying to accomplish is common-place and pressing a single button in a single menu is not that big of deal. If that is a big deal - then you could always leave the keyboard in USB mode and accomplish the port-1 to port-3 routing described. If you never need to "reach" the Motif ES with your DAW (meaning you also do not need to pass the data using your DAW from the ES to Montage) - then you can ignore Port-3 altogether. And instead manage getting the ES to talk to Montage by using the mode=MIDI (not USB). I think you got this.

How the Montage responds to your Motif all depends on your Motif's setup. Your Motif is the master controller in this scenario. In Motif ES Song mode, each track can be set to a different MIDI transmit channel. The transmit channel will be the PART number on Montage. In Motif ES Master mode, you can setup 4 zones and each zone can have its own MIDI transmit channel. So those are two choices for having 4 PARTs of Montage to receive separate MIDI streams from the Motif. Or you could use Voice/Performance mode of Motif ES (which is single timbre = single MIDI channel) and setup Montage to Single-Channel MIDI mode (or Hybrid mode). Note ranges on the Montage side would determine the splits and layers.

If you left Montage in Multi-Channel mode AND had the Motif ES in Single-Timbre mode (Voice or Performance) where only one MIDI channel transmits from the Motif - then only a single Montage PART could respond to Motif. I doubt this is a configuration you want - so don't do that. Listed for understanding.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
You have many options available to you. I’ll just add that if you move your Drum Pattern data to your DAW, you seem to be under the impression that this means you’d have to use computer-based sounds... that is not true. If you find that you would like editing and manipulating your Pattern data in your DAW, you can still use either the Motif ES and/or the MONTAGE as your tone sources. It is simply a matter of routing. The sounds can come from the device you choose. This can actually be helpful when comparing the original Motif ES sound with the one you are going to replace it with in the MONTAGE. Setting up your system so that you can easily compare — is definitely a situation you want to configure.

Also, did you know? ...you do not have to do a real time transfer of the Track data via MIDI, if you don’t want to. Because many of the same Drum Kits and certainly, the majority of mapping is going to be consistent from Motif ES to MONTAGE, you can simply SAVE your Motif ES data as FILE TYPE = SMF (Standard MIDI File) .mid — then load it directly into the MONTAGE or Logic Pro.

You will need to get the .mid File from your SmartMedia cards on to a USB flash stick (but if you still have SM Cards you likely still have a SM Card Reader). Or you can save them directly to a USB drive. Once you have your data saved as a .mid you’re in... move it to a USB stick and load it to MONTAGE! Or open it in Logic Pro!

“SMF — Sequence track (1 - 16) and Tempo track data of Songs, or Patterns created in the Song/Pattern mode can be saved to the SmartMedia/USB storage device as Standard MIDI File (format 0) data.“

Each SONG can be saved as a SMF, and each Pattern Section can be saved to a separate SMF...

Then load the data directly to the MONTAGE. Why this is possibly a better method than a real time MIDI OUT-to-MIDI IN transfer, is it is way quicker and less chance for error. The Sequencer event data is compatible.

You will still need to select new MONTAGE instruments and assign new Drum Kits, but a file transfer guarantees your musical performance, every note, and controller move will be accurately loaded to your MONTAGE Sequencer or to your computer DAW.

I have done this type of thing, literally, hundreds of times because I’m one of those people tasked with knowing how transfers of data from one generation of products to the next is going to work. While engineering pushes toward moving forward and by nature tend toward leaving the old behind, you have a good number of folks who can’t let go of the old stuff. It is the nature of this beast.

Either way, there is a lot of work to be done. If you can eliminate having to transfer your track data manually, do it. It guarantees your musical performances survive the upgrade... and you can busy yourself with the fun stuff — selecting and assigning new sounds. Trust me, that is the work!!! You know that if you do it right — it has a really great chance of actually sounding better than before. But first you have to get back to where it was when it was all ES. I would concentrate my energy on this part of the task.

I’ve been here, done this, and have many the t-shirt to prove it. Take your time.

In your ES. Call up your Patterns
Press [FILE]
Select “Save”
Set File Type = SMF
You can Save each Pattern Section as a separate .MID file

Or if you wish, Chain the Pattern Sections, Convert them to linear Songs (easier to deal with Song files) - a Song gets saved as one entity .mid
You can redivide it after you load it into the MONTAGE or your DAW, if you wish.

Extra Credit Tip: Make a Track sheet for each composition. There is no way to transfer you individual program selections — program changes are as meaningless as hieroglyphics in the new synth... so manual selection is you big task. Some times you will find a similar sound, some times you will be replacing a sound entirely with a completely different sound. The better your notes the easier the task is... and if you can setup both synths to do the compare thing — it can actually be fun! The more fun it is the more rewarding the results.

Back in the Future...
What you’ll find going from a second generation Motif (ES) all the way up to a MONTAGE is an increase in Wave ROM of a staggering 32 times larger. Effect processing that was even possible back in 2003. In the ES eight of the Parts could recall their Insertion Effects, in MONTAGE every Part (16) has its own set of Insertion Effects, plus the A/D Input has its own, as well. On the ES you had two Assign Knobs, now you have eight Assign Knobs per Part (16) plus eight that can link the Super Knob movement to the Parts Assign Knobs, in a Control matrix not even dreamed of back in 2003.

You’ll have so many new choices and opportunities that you simply didn’t have previously. I can say that I’ve never been disappointed in improving upon an old version of a sequence, when porting it over to a newer instrument. I often find the exercise enlightening as you substitute different sounds. What the big take away is, you begin to appreciate that there are so many different sounds because they all fit differently in different musical contexts.

You learn that one killer electric piano sound doesn’t work in every context. Some work well in ballads but not in other types of settings. There are no good or bad sounds, there are sounds that are more or less appropriate for the current circumstance (surroundings). It broadens your thinking... some times the perfect sound is one you might not have selected had you played it alone, but it is perfect in the context of the surrounding instruments doing this particular song! Over 2700 Presets and room for over 5700 of your own choosing...

Understanding your collections of sounds is really not appreciated until you do this process of re-voicing a sequence. As you try out different sounds you know when it’s right. A skill you want to develop is when it is *close*, you want to be able to go in and fix it so it is perfect! Otherwise you may never finish :-)

Have fun...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BAD MISTER Everything you said is right on the money. I only have the Smart Media Card Reader on the Motif. So I would simply load my files to the Motif, ("pretty much my songs, patterns, and some recorded performances";), I then go to the Files, RESAVE to SMF and then RE/STORE what I need to, to a USB FLASH STICK that way I can just load the SMF's directly in the Montage and/or computer. I never thought to do it that way. Awesome Advice. THANK YOU.

One last question:
Do I need to format the usb flash stick to the Montage first or vise versa (Motif)? Or No because SMF's are a universal language between the keyboards/computers.

I have never used usb flash sticks until now. 1 to back up OS 2.5 and download the manuals. I used another 1 to download the 3.0 OS update for the Montage.
These other ones I have are for this exact reason.

So I learned about some hidden features, workflows, MIDI Controller and set up, and how to back up, store, and load or reload using SMF's from older devices using them with newer devices
.
YAMAHASynth is a complete go to for this awesome information.
All my plans with this machine are 4 months ahead of schedule.

Hey JASON, I am still getting the cord to try out your set up advice/recommendations on syncing the keyboards for MIDI Controlling. Something I have never done before.
THANK YOU GUYS

p.s. I still need to get the foot switches and pedals. More conveniences.
This Montage is totally awesome..............................................................
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
One last question:
Do I need to format the usb flash stick to the Montage first or vise versa (Motif)? Or No because SMF's are a universal language between the keyboards/computers.
USB flash sticks come ready to use (format is FAT32) - this can be read by the synthesizers and your computer. And most any MIDI device with a sequencer can read the .mid file type.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Bad Mister, I tried using the usb flash drive 32GB that I use with the Montage and computer with no problem.
It doesn't want to Save the .midi files from the Motif es. Just on the smart media card. It doesn't want to configure, mount, or format the usb stick.
It keeps saying "read only file".
So I searched FAT32 all over the web to no luck.
But I found a Flash Stick (the only 2GB available) on MOTIFATOR.com That says it'll work fine with the Motif es. But it doesn't show the brand name and the other info.
I went on the compatible devise list on Yamaha.USA and those brands are all discontinued.

I recorded a Motif es drum MIDI track to the computer and it sounded out to the Montage as expected.

Taking your advise from earlier, should I just get that 2GB usb flash stick from MOTIFATOR.com? It doesn't say FAT32
It would be easier to save from the Motif and then load to the Montage.

Thanks again for all your help and advise.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I have a MO6 - same generation as your ES. It goofs up USB sticks alot so I make sure not to place anything I care about inside of it. Also, this is partly why I always suggest to get the lowest size drive you can find. 2GB sounds about right. That's the limit for FAT16 - which was where the technology was at the time.

Source: http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2430745/yamaha-motif-es6-formatting-problem
What size is the USB stick and how is it formatted? The Motif ES series does NOT recognize USB sticks formatted as FAT-32. If it is formatted as FAT-32 it won't be recognized by a Motif ES. Generally speaking you can also occasionally have problems if the Read/Write speeds of the USB stick are too slow also, although I don't think that sounds like the problem here. Your USB Flash drive also needs to be 2 GB or smaller and formatted as FAT-16.


The original Motif claims, in the SCSI faq (SCSI was a standard for hard drives and zip drives used this interface sometimes) that 2GB and below were formatted at FAT16 and >2GB were formatted as FAT32 -- so FAT32 was a "thing" before the ES. But I would just stick to small drives to ensure compatibility. I'm not sure thumb drives of the day supported >2GB (SCSI is a different beast).

Strangely, google didn't find this - but Bing did. The link to the FAQ:

https://usa.yamaha.com/support/faq/music_production/6589.html
Which reads ...
The Motif ES series will not recognize flash drives larger than 2Gigabytes. Compatible flash drives must formatted to FAT-16 and not have preloaded software on them such as U3. There is no update to address the size limitation.


... so using a 2GB drive should sidestep any compatibility issues (still, be sure the OS formats to FAT-16). Although you could try formatting a larger-than-2GB drive to FAT-16 (using only 2GB of it) and roll the dice.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
For the latest OS update 3.0, one of the new features is being able to connect a MIDI controller using the "USB To DEVISE Port" using a USB MIDI cable. Like a MIDI keyboard controller, drum pads, and other alternative controllers.

Would the Motif ES fall under this kind of compatibility? If so how would it react/work with the Montage? If it's possible.
A friend wants to lend me his drum pad and MIDI keyboard controller, but he doesn't know what model or brands they are. With/if all 3 devises have a "USB TO HOST port" does that make the needed connections possible. Using them one at a time of course.

Ultimately everything would be MIDI (no sound), or would there be sound from those devices thru the Montage's Tone Engine from setting up the "Performance Parts". This could all be with and without the use of the computer.

I just need a little more info on this Post's main question.

All you guys here at YamahaSynth.com are totally awesome and when taking your advise, suggestions, and know how about the Montage itself, your suggested workflows I'm interested in make total sense and things (for me) that were a challenge in the past (time consuming), it is now becoming very easy-peasy. I want to get as familiar as I can with the Montage's feature and functions the best I can. This machine is totally awesome.

Any information regarding the control and signal flows from those kind of devises using the USB MIDI cable connecting to the "TO DEVISE Port" on the Montage is greatly appreciated.

THANK YOU again.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
If a device has a USB cable to connect to the computer (drums, keyboard) - and you need no driver or special software to get the device to work - and by working this means you can hit or touch a key and something like a DAW will respond by playing notes on a virtual instrument (VSTi) - then you can plug this same device into Montage's USB TO DEVICE port and it will act as a controller for Montage.

Acting as a controller means it will trigger note on and note off events on Montage.

Devices connected to the USB TO DEVICE port will not pass audio. They will only send MIDI information FROM the device TO Montage. Montage cannot send any MIDI data back to the connected device. It's a one-way connection (which is fine for the intended purpose).

Something like a piano device is easy to imagine what will happen - it will "play" piano keys on your montage.

Something like a drum controller is slightly different because drums are not mapped physically with white and black keys like a piano. Each drum pad should map to one key on the keyboard somewhere. If the device has a manual - it should tell you which MIDI note. There's some disagreement on the octave numbering. So you may need to go up or down an octave vs. documentation used by other manufacturers. (A C2 by one manufacturer may be a C1 or C3 by another). Or you could call up a melodic instrument (like piano) on Montage, then just hit a pad on the USB-connected drum pads, and then go to the keyboard playing the chromatic notes until you play a matching pitch. Write down the relationship of which note on the keyboard matches a drum pad. Then you can switch to a drum kit Performance (on Montage) and map that same piano key to the sound you want for that drum pad.

You cannot control the direction (it's one way) - but you can control what data Montage receives and how Montage handles this data. Your USB TO DEVICE connected MIDI device should have a facility to change the MIDI transmit channel on that device. Here's a rundown:

Montage MIDI Mode = Multi-Channel Mode
USB TO DEVICE connected device's MIDI output channel matches any PART with keyboard control=ON: All PARTs with Kbd Ctrl ON will be triggered
USB TO DEVICE connected device's MIDI output channel matches any PART with keyboard control=OFF: Only the one Kbd Ctrl OFF PART that matches is triggered

Montage MIDI Mode = Hybrid Mode (MIDI Receive/Transmit channel set)
USB TO DEVICE connected device's MIDI output channel matches Montage's Receive/Transmit Channel: All PARTs with Kbd Ctrl ON will be triggered
USB TO DEVICE connected device's MIDI output channel matches any PART with keyboard control=OFF: Only the one Kbd Ctrl OFF PART that matches is triggered

Montage MIDI Mode = Single-Channel Mode (MIDI Receive/Transmit channel set)
USB TO DEVICE connected device's MIDI output channel matches Montage's Receive/Transmit Channel: All PARTs with Kbd Ctrl ON will be triggered
Otherwise, if USB TO DEVICE does not match Montage's single Receive/Transmit channel - no PARTs will be triggered

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP--aX1sCUc
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
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