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  1. Derek
  2. The Voice
  4. Wednesday, 20 December 2017
Hi, all

I am getting the Montage more integrated into my rig, and it is proving a very good replacement for my retired EX5 (I do miss the EX5's FDSP voices though! :) Maybe FDSP could be a future Montage update?).

So far I've managed to achieve everything I want to do with the Montage integration into my rig, other than being able to select a specific set list via MIDI. I can select select list entries with no problem, but still have to poke about on the touch screen to get the right set list.

My Korg Kronos supports selection of any of its 128 setlists (each with 128 entries) with no problem, so I would like to know if the Montage can do this. I haven't found the facility so far. The most I've found in terms of info on this forum is an earlier post suggesting that you can have everything in one set list as you have 256 slots, which I of course could do, but I think it defeats the object of having a named setlist for each band/project I am in. So I would like to be able to do the latter before having to fall back on the former. Or I know I could straight for individual performance selection, but I quite like the simplified UI of set list mode when I am gigging.

To help explain this, below is a very simplified description of my flow of how I control my rig
  • I use my Roland FC300 MIDI foot controller to select Songs and parts within songs, which allows me to keep both hands on the boards whilst playing. The FC300 MIDI goes to my gig computer which is running Top Ten Software's excellent Cantabile Program.
  • When Cantabile receives the appropriate command from the FC300, it selects the required song or song part (song state in Cantabile speak).
  • As well as setting up the VST synths I use in songs within Cantabile, the act of selecting a Cantabile song or song state will send banked program change commands to my Kronos and Montage and also my other external units when I use them, such as my Line 6 Helix Guitar pedal and TC-Helicon voice processor

If the Montage cannot support this, is it possible to make it a feature request? A simple CC assigned to doing this (like the CC for scene selection) would be fine. I could work with that in Cantabile.
Responses (9)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Derek
Though I've never tried to do this I believe the live set can be changed via program change midi messages

Here's a post that talks a bit about it

  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Unfortunately, you cannot change the setlist. You can only change the individual entries/slots within one setlist. So, you are limited to 256 of them. I have no idea why Yamaha removes features and tries to think for their users about what is enough and what is not.

In other words, you have to manually select a setlist, and then you can send program change data to select 256 entries within the selected setlist.
  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks for the replies, guys.

My understanding is the same as explained by Sladjan in that you have to manually select the setlist. Not a big issue in the scheme of things, but given I don't have to do that on my Kronos, it would be good if the Montage could be as automated - less mistakes to make on stage then and avoids starting off with the wrong setlist!. :)
  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Actually, it is a big thing because slots can be filled up very fast if you - like me - gig with just one keyboard. One slot doesn't equal to one song because often you need different performances for different parts of a certain song. I have some songs where I have 5 or even more performances, connected to slots. So, the slots fill up pretty much fast. I'm using about 120 slots right now, 5 months after purchasing the Montage. It is not even one year in my possession and half of the setlist is almost filled up.
  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 4
Bad Mister
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Just for clarity's sake and a little bit of perspective....In reality, it depends on how you use the Live Set feature. To understand how it works you have to recognize the User Bank (which can contains 640 Performances) has eight User Live Set Banks, User 1-8, each of these eight Banks has 16 Pages... each Page has 16 Slots.

User 1 has 16 Pages each with 16 Slots
User 2 has 16 Pages each with 16 Slots
User 3 has 16 Pages each with 16 Slots
User 4 has 16 Pages each with 16 Slots
User 5 has 16 Pages each with 16 Slots
User 6 has 16 Pages each with 16 Slots
User 7 has 16 Pages each with 16 Slots
User 8 has 16 Pages each with 16 Slots

So, yes, each User has 256 Slots... when you recall a set, you move among this set of 256 Programs.
There are eight User Banks of Live Sets.

And, all 2048 of the Slots can be installed in one of your Libraries. You have eight Libraries.

Now as I read how you are approaching this, you are worried that at some point you might have more than 256 different program changes within a single setlist... well, if that is your worry (perhaps you are working too hard) - there might be a more efficient way to setup your MONTAGE.

In order to make locations within the Live Set list recallable from external devices, Yamaha is using the standard CC messages of the Bank Select MSB/LSB protocol and then a simple Program Change event, 1-16 to correspond to the 16 Slots on the screen. Rather than restrict the list to the 128 limit of the typical Bank... Yamaha expanded the available slots per Set to 256. And by following the screen layout of Pages with 16 Slots... the selected Live Set Bank recalls 256 potential Slots... yes, it is probably assumed that that should suffice for the gig or at least for a single set...

Then at your leisure, between sets, or before the next gig, you can press the Live Set Bank arrow once and recall the next 256.

I see no reason why the original poster can't access the Live Set Bank from their particular setup. Besides, since a Sequencer is sending MSB LSB PC there is no real benefit to using the Live Set locations... if you are sending in Select commands remotely it would be unnecessary to use the Live Set function (the Volume can be sent along with the Bank Select/PC)... each of the more than 7800 potential MONTAGE PERFORMANCES (Preset, User, Library) has its own unique MSB/LSB and PC addressable, directly.

Each Page can be named so it is not necessary to switch to a new set of 256, especially if you have not nearly used the available slots. A typical set is ten or twelve songs... so each sixteen slots could be a typically set. Of course, your mileage can vary.

If you use scores and scores of slots per set, then recognize that you're one who will need to learn thee most efficient methods to go about programming your MONTAGE.
  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi BadMister,
I guess different people work in a different way. I play concerts with just one set, as most concerts usually look like. You start and play for some 90 or 120 minutes without a pause. I rarely know my setlist in advance and often there are even changes during a concert. Because of that, I use an external app (setlist maker) and recall my "slots" by using a midi program change. I press the song name on the app and it recalls the first slot for that song. If there are more slots, they are saved next to the first slot, so that I can recall them with a switch pedal and the liveset up function.
There is no a second set or a third. I cannot distribute and divide songs into sets. I simply fill up the live set as new songs are being rehearsed and added to our songlist.

Here is the problem:
It was Yamahas idea to remove direct access to the performances by dialing a bank letter and/or number. You know, the old way just like the Motif was organized. While every performance has a msb/lsb/pc tag, this is good for selecting them from an external device, but to select performances directly in the shortest possible way on the Montage, we have to use the liveset mode because that is the only mode where we can access performances by making two or three button presses. But unfortunately, Yamaha decided to implement a msb/lsb/pc system which works just inside a selected setlist, instead of making a full implementation for all 8 setlists. I have no idea why they did it in that way. It is of no benefit for the user and it would have required just a little more work to tag/index all slots in all 8 sets.
  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi, Bad Mister.

No, I am not worried I am going to run out of set list slots. It is simply absurd to suggest that, and, to be honest, a little patronising.

I know I can organise my set lists for each band inside a single set list, after all that is what I did in my recently retired Yamaha EX5 in Performance mode as there was no choice but to group everything into the limit of 128 performances, and that would meet the aim.

I know that I can manually select the required set list before the gig, but I prefer to automate as much as possible and control my rig via a single means. Cantabile is the heart of my rig, and it is doing all of my MIDI routing and processing in a relatively complex rig that controls hardware synths, soft synths, guitar pedals, voice processor and DMX light rig. So, I use Cantabile to programmatically set everything up as much as possible, with my FC300 MIDI pedal doing the patch change duties whilst I keep both hands on the keyboards. With a rig like that I want to automate the selections as much as possible.

I could work the way you suggest above within a single User Bank, although it will now mean some reprogramming and then I can programmatically select everything.

However, it leaves me confused in how Yamaha see the 8 Live Set user banks being used.
If Yamaha have provided 8 user banks on a Montage, then is it not logical to assume that some users would want to use them to organise a set list for each band into each one? I certainly made that assumption and it seems that others have as well.

If Yamaha do not see the point of using individual User Banks as a means of organising your specific sets for each band (or equivalent), then how did Yamaha envisage their users using 8 of them?

The use of a Liveset Bank for each band setlist sort of seemed logical to me ;) and how I have started off, but now I am setting up for a couple of bands, I find that I cannot send the changes I wish to do to select a Set List via MIDI in the way that I can do with my Kronos which gives you 16,384 set list locations organised as 128 by 128. Now, I will never have 128 slots in use inside 128 set lists, so their implementation is overkill (but comes about from the good old MIDI “magic number” of 128, but far more logical, and allows you programmatically select sets and slots via Bank MSB/ Bank LSB/PC with no issues.

I can go with your suggestion and work within a single bank and it will work for me, albeit with some reprogramming. However, I would suggest that would still be useful if there was an external mechanism to allow selection of a user bank. In OS 1.5 Yamaha added a feature to allow Scenes to externally selected via CC, so adding the ability to select set lists via such a means should not be a big ask in a future update, and you are maximising the flexibility for users to have different work flows that suit them and use setlists how they wish to do so. :)
  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Here is the solution (tested):

Send to Montage F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 09 00 00 XX F7 (parameter change with adress = 09 00 00)
Send to Modx F0 43 10 7F 1C 07 09 00 00 XX F7
With XX =
00 for preset liveset
01 to 08 for user 1 to user 8 liveset
09,0A,0B,.... for librarie's livesets

Then you can choose your performance by liveset slot with MSB + LSB bank change and program change.
  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
... added to undocumented SysEx list.
  1. more than a month ago
  3. # 9
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