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  1. Michael Trigoboff
  2. Vanity Monster Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Wednesday, 02 May 2018
Sometimes I like to play along with songs on YouTube or archive.org. Since my Montage works as a sound card for my PC, It occurred to me that I might be able to record those songs using some feature of the Montage or Cubase.

What I’ve discovered so far is that the sound enters the Montage on USB Main. It seems to flow straight through and goes out Main L&R. I verified this because I could affect the volume of the song by changing USB Volume and Monitor Volume Main.

Is there some routing trick I can use to capture the audio in either the Montage Recorder or in a Cubase audio track?

The image below shows the current state of my Montage’s audio routing.

https://image.ibb.co/fYvyin/audiorouting.png
Responses (60)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Since I can not edit. another post!

With copyright. Never Assume Anything!
Especially. If it is in your Personal Favor. That is usually wrong.

There is A thing called "Common USE"
It is Why Schools, News media and Referencing Copyrighted material is Allowed By them.

Because I got Screwed. Early in life Via Copyright law. I have studied it. For over 40 years.
I Went to the Ohio state Uni. Library. Prior to the internet.
I do not understand a lot of it. (Meant for lawyers). But mostly. Those parts do not concern me.( ?)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 21
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
From your screenshot, click on "RECORDING" > "Listen" > Here you can select the MONTAGE as the Device.

https://yamahasynth.com/images/MontageSnorkel/CustomerQA/Win/PlaybackDevice.png

This is as much as I've been able to dig up so far. You will have to explore more until I can get some time in front of a Windows computer and dig around. What I don't see (and it would be essential for this to work) is the option to select the bus on which to return audio to the MONTAGE... All I see is "2 Channel, 24-bit" instead of the selection of returns we are looking for.

It may well be that Windows cannot use the multiple returns _ I'll double check and report back (Mac this is not a problem).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 22
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
... also, if you're trying to record noises your PC makes (beeps, blops, youtube video sound, etc) then the option to use the PC soundcard as the audio interface for the PC's sounds is there.

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/22879-i-can-t-hear-any-sound#reply-22890

You'd setup so the PC sounds are handled by the PC (not Montage) - then run an audio cable between the PC and Montage's A/D input. Then record using Montage's audio recorder (or figure out another way to record the A/D input back to the PC).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 23
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Note that the part of the message in the link previously given deals with setting up Montage's audio routing FROM Montage TO the PC so that the sound travels out the PC speakers. This part (Cubase settings) does not need to be changed for the audio routing you're trying to achieve. The other Windows-side instructions are applicable and stated pitfalls in Windows settings may be of use.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 24
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I can do this fine if I route analog audio out of my PC (Surface Pro tablet) or iPad into the A/D inputs on my Montage. All it took was a cable like this and the right settings.

But doing it this way involves a digital-to-analog conversion in the PC followed by an analog-to-digital conversion in the Montage. What I've been hoping to accomplish is to get the digital audio straight through to the Montage without the two conversions. It seems to me that avoiding the two conversions would be better for the sound quality.

This is what Bad Mister is looking into at the moment. He says it's possible on a Macintosh, but may or may not be on Windows.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 25
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yeah, I mention the downside of this is fidelity -- wasn't sure what you were going for exactly. I haven't had my board hooked up -- normally I can run through this and get to a 1,2,3 procedure. Not going by memory for this one.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 26
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi, Bad Mister.

Can we conclude at this point that there’s no way on a Windows 10 PC to route digital audio from things like YouTube through a connected Montage to Cubase?

By the way, the second page of posts on this thread seems to have gone missing.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 27
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I see two pages of posts.

No, we shouldn’t conclude anything just yet.... I’m no Windows guru. I cannot imagine that they prevent you from choosing audio Outputs (as a system wide thing) it could vary from hardware model to hardware model. See, it’s easier to know for Mac because there are less of them (models that is).

I’ll have to check and get back to you. In order for a Windows Computer to do Surround sound it would seem you would need to have the ability to select more than just a single stereo bus output. The option reads like you can (under proper circumstances or with certain hardware) Select other Output options.

I’m gonna bet, there is definitely a way, but it depends on which Windows Computer and what physical hardware is available on that computer.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 28
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Bad Mister,

It would be really helpful if you could post some screenshots of what it looks like to set this up on a Mac. That could help me figure out the equivalent thing on a PC.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 29
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
In the Mac, you would open Audio/MIDI Setup (Audio view).

The "Finder" is the Mac icon (the face icon) denotes "Play alerts and sound effects through this device". I have sound output to the MONTAGE Driver.
The "Microphone" icon is the symbol for incoming audio signal "Use this device for sound input", I have set that to the MONTAGE Driver.
The "Speaker" icon is the symbol for outgoing audio signal. "Use this device for sound output", I have set that to the MONTAGE Driver
(The gear at the bottom left side of the dialog box, lets you select these options.)
https://yamahasynth.com/images/MontageSnorkel/CustomerQA/Mac/AudioINPUTs.png
On the INPUTS tab (shown above) you can see the various MONTAGE Outputs USB1-32 @44.1kHz

On the OUTPUTs tab (shown below) you can see the 6 audio returns from the computer to MONTAGE identified.
https://yamahasynth.com/images/MontageSnorkel/CustomerQA/Mac/AudioOUTPUTs.png

The 3rd and 4th RETURNS are identified as the "Digital L" and "Digital R", respectively.
Click on CONFIGURE SPEAKERS... to reveal where you can select them ...shown below:

https://yamahasynth.com/images/MontageSnorkel/CustomerQA/Mac/ConfigSpeakers.png
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 30
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Windows is similar. The outputs are not labeled like on Mac. See:

https://image.ibb.co/b2eCDy/Windows_Audio_Settings.png

The problem is how, without a DAW or more advanced audio routing, it's difficult to tell Windows's applications to output sound to channels 3-6. By default, only channels 1&2 will have outputs even when you have the volume "pegged" in the balance section of the audio playback device settings (image above).

There's a quick way to rectify this -- which you may not "like" -- but it's quick and requires no software downloading or too fancy fiddling.

1) Press the windows key
2) Type "mono", for me this brings up an option/icon for "Audio Settings"
3) Click on the "Audio Settings" icon which brings up the "Audio" menu
4) Switch "Turn on mono audio" to "On".

This shoved audio into the Digital Inputs on Montage so I could record using the audio performance recorder.

Here's a picture:
https://image.ibb.co/eSZLYy/Windows_Audio_Settings2.png

Obviously, using this "mono" feature kills stereo separation. Ease of use doesn't come without some "minor" costs.

... and my thoughts on "wish the digital inputs were more flexible", in greater detail.

Right now, with these 6 channels of inputs to Montage from the PC (over USB) we have:

Channel 1 = Fixed to Main L
Channel 2 = Fixed to Main R
Channel 3 = Fixed to "Digital In" L - which is a digital version of the A/D input
Channel 4 = Fixed to "Digital In" R - "
Channel 5 = Fixed to Assign L
Channel 6 = Fixed to Assign R

Similar to how PARTs cannot be assigned a MIDI channel and that causes some configurations to get painted into a corner - the inability to route the 6 digital inputs sometimes creates the same situation. Since audio for "generic" use in Windows routes out Channels 1&2 (kind of like MIDI Channel 1 for some MIDI devices) -- what ends up happening is that Main L&R ends up being used for most digital USB and a certain class of users will not "fool" with the system to go any further than that. Although you could stand on one foot and hold your nose to "fix" this -- a more "friendly" approach would be to allow these digital channels to have a routing matrix on Montage, analogous to the type of routing matrix many would enjoy for the MIDI channel assignments to PARTs (on MIDI input).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 31
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
One windows tip:

Versus using the "mono" mode in order to replicate the audio signal on digital Montage inputs 2-6, I found a better method which keeps Montage Digital Inputs Ch2/3 and Ch5/6 in stereo mode.

First, if you set windows to Mono mode, undo that first.

1) Download a free mixer application: https://www.vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/index.htm
2) Install and reboot
3) Set "A1" (Right-hand side "HARDWARE OUT" ) to "MME: Line (Montage)"
4) Click "Stereo Repeat" under the "A MAIN OUT" section. For the outputs (far right) there are two sliders. The right-most is for virtual output. The next one over to the left is the Montage control which controls the level of the PC send to the Montage. Just to the left of this slider is the "Stereo Repeat" button you should click. When the button is light blue (ON), you will notice the "A MAIN OUT" bar graph has 6 bars moving assuming you have audio playing on your PC. I use this youtube link to check audio - since it streams 24/7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ccaHpy5Ewo

Once you click the "Stereo Repeat" you should now be able to use the performance recorder on Montage to record audio.

Note that this audio mixer is much deeper than what I've outlined. There is also support for routing MIDI over the net.

Also note that this mixer defaults audio to 16-bit 44.1kHz. If you want 24-bit, reconfigure (VoiceMeeter Input playback device properties under Windows "Sound/Playback" ).

Here's a picture of what you get:

https://image.ibb.co/mGYUTy/Voicemeeter_Screen.png

Note you should be able to do something similar with a DAW. I installed this on a PC that I did not have a DAW installed -- so I didn't run through the equivalent steps of setting up Cubase, as an example, to accomplish the same thing. Cubase (without this mixer) will allow for you to do something similar - and with more control over the individual channels (Montage inputs 1-6).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 32
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I installed Voicemeeter and set it up the way you suggested. It didn’t work on my rig.

So I set it up a different way and got it to work. In the Windows 10 Sound Control Panel, I set Voicemeeter to be the default sound device. Then in Voicemeeter I set A1 to be the Yamaha USB ASIO driver. I was a little queasy about putting Voicemeeter between the Yamaha driver and my Montage, but everything seemed to work OK.

I have no idea why it works one way for you and another way for me. But at least it works. Thanks so much for pointing me in the direction of Voicemeeter.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 33
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Glad something worked. The main idea is to get the digital channels Ch3/Ch4 (Digital L & Digital R) to have audio sent there without requiring a DAW installed. VoiceMeeter was the only thing, thus far, I found to do this (in stereo). Windows alone can do this in Mono mode - but you lose spatial separation. And again, Cubase should be able to handle this with proper settings. My DAW machine is in transition, so I can't run through that. I personally would not use VoiceMeeter on a machine I had a DAW installed due to the extra software stage.

EDIT: I see what the difference is. I installed this on a machine with no Yamaha Steinberg USB driver installed. In this configuration, Montage will attach to Windows using standard drivers. Unlike the Yamaha Steinberg USB drivers - the standard drivers will install the "MONTAGE Line" device with 6 channels. The Yamaha Steinberg "MONTAGE Line" instance will only have two channels. The sound properties look different too.

In both cases, VoiceMeeter needs to be the default Audio Output device. When VoiceMeeter is installed - this is set by default (which is why I didn't call it out).

I've installed the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver and can confirm that selecting the ASIO driver as you've outlined is required to get the 6-channel output (from PC to Montage) to "engage" - and the rest of the instructions apply.

The reason I followed this is because I'd think a machine with a DAW would leverage the DAW for Audio routing -- and some random machine with youtube assumed no DAW installed - so I also assumed no Yamaha Steinberg USB drivers installed.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 34
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Very cool, I kinda discovered that playing youtube on the pc while connected to montage / speakers was very handy. When I saw this initial post, it seemed that recording the track seemed so close yet so far. Keeping for rainy day when I want to Jam with and record with the Tubes. How fun:p
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 35
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Excellent!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 36
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The reason I followed this is because I'd think a machine with a DAW would leverage the DAW for Audio routing ...
I looked around a lot in Cubase Pro 9.5.21 and did not find any way to do what Voicemeeter does (direct a PC audio source to the Montage's Digital In bus).

I was surprised. I also had thought it would be possible in the DAW without Voicemeeter. Apparently that thought was incorrect.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 37
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Going the other way (publishing a stream to the web), I stumbled on some mixer app streaming on the xbox where some players and DAW artists where noodling and working with DAWs live. So I tried that using both Cubase and a standalong visualizer as a "game" to broadcast a stream. It works pretty much out of the box, but I did notice that one guy was streaming with super high fidelity, vs the ok lower fidelity my stream was generating. Not sure if putting that mixer in between would provide the full audio range.... another test for a rainy day. But its pretty cool to be able to jam live and stream without too much fuss.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 38
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I looked around a lot in Cubase Pro 9.5.21 and did not find any way to do what Voicemeeter does (direct a PC audio source to the Montage's Digital In bus).

I was surprised. I also had thought it would be possible in the DAW without Voicemeeter. Apparently that thought was incorrect.
You did not look hard enough, apparently.

In Cubase Pro 9.5
Go to STUDIO > Studio Setup > VST Audio System > Montage
Here you will see the 32 Inputs (yellow) and 6 Outputs (blue)

If you go to STUDIO > Audio Connections > click on the “Outputs” tab
Here you see the default Stereo Out is Audio Device = MONTAGE > Main L and Main R
Click on “Add Bus” > create 1 Stereo Bus
This will create “Stereo Out 2” assigned to the Montage’s “Digital L” and Digital R” returns

All you need do is select “Stereo Out 2” as the Output for the Audio you wish to send back to the MONTAGE’s internal mixer.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 39
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BM, that's not exactly going to solve the request. The problem isn't creating an output bus from Cubase to Montage's digital L/R inputs -- the issue is simultaneously feeding the computer noises (like Youtube or any other sound the computer makes) into the audio inputs of Cubase when only a single ASIO driver can be selected at a time in Windows. If the Yamaha Steinberg driver as an audio interface for the PC allowed to control audio output not only to Channels 1&2 (Main L/R) but also to any channel - then this would be solved. However, the use-Yamaha-Driver-as-a-PC-soundcard forces audio routing out Main L/R. On the Montage side - outside of using an analog loopback cable back to A/D in - there is no way to "re-route" the Main L/R digital input.

Cubase can play audio straight to Montage's digital L/R inputs (channels 2,3) - but the issue is getting the computer sounds into Cubase's stereo inputs.

It does appear that Voicemeeter (or something similar) - which makes up for lost control of the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver for PC-Soundcard audio routing - is required in order to get PC-Soundcard streams into Montage's Digital L/R.

The other option would be a little round-about. You could use something like ASIO4ALL to enable recording your soundcard (Realtek, or ...) audio in Cubase as an audio file. Then switch drivers to the Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO driver to play what you just recorded back out - setting up your stereo out bus properly.

This all is part of what I've commented on in the past about lack of routing flexibility which does complicate things a bit. For now, Voicemeeter is the best option for doing this although I'd probably "not trust" having Voicemeeter in the audio chain unless I absolutely needed it for short bursts of targeted work.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 40
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