Yes - use IdeaScale to add your voice to the 10 years of history on transpose/note shift. Do a simple search for 'transpose' and you will find previous submissions almost every year for the past several years. And since the M models came out 2 years ago there have been many more when it was found the issues weren't addressed on those models.

For whatever reason Yamaha doesn't seem to be giving the transpose/note shift 'mess' a high enough priority to get a fix in the works. 

Do a search at the top of the Montage forum for 'transpose' and you will find even more reports going back almost 10 years. Here is a recent one (among several others) we posted:

https://yamahasynth.com/community/montage-series-synthesizers/montage-m-parms-octave-shift-and-transpose-on-a-part-zone-settings-screen-dont-respect-splits-defined-on-the-part-settings-screen/#post-128006

1. some options say 'transpose' (change MIDI note) when it really does note shift and vice versa

2. front panel button lights are only lit for 'octave' transpose and not semitones

3. internal parts use both part settings and zone settings param values rather than just part settings

It's a real mess and has been for some time.

Here is a thread from 2018

https://yamahasynth.com/community/montage-series-synthesizers/transposetransposetranspose-yamaha-montage-8/#post-29871

**TRANSPOSE**TRANSPOSE**TRANSPOSE**........ Yamaha Montage 8!!

See Jason's first reply where he provide several links to previous threads and, seems funny now, says this:

I think Yamaha has received the message and comprehends what is being conveyed.

Only Yamaha knows for sure but we suspect that any real 'fix' to these issues will have implications for backward compatibility since what used to work using the current rules will work differently using new rules. That said, there comes a point where it is more important to fix a problem once you know it really needs to be fixed.

If you post in IdeaScale please add links to some of the previous submissions.

FYI - you may discover another issue once the January NAMM OS update for Modx M is released since it should have the performance 'transpose/note shift' functionality added to the OS 3.0 update to the Montage M models.

To be clear, this isn't yet another request for "note shift" rather than "transpose" (though I do think the user should be able to program those buttons to give them the function of their choice... and making it a user-selectable option would address the concern you mentioned about backward compatibility)... rather this is a request for the new "octave" button on the individual Parts to function as note shift rather than transpose. A request for *that* wouldn't go back any further than the Montage M (which I assume has the same part-based Oct control, functioning the same way).

Yamaha *did* effectively finally implement this, on the CK, where shifting the octave of an individual Part of a split combination does function as Note Shift! So *someone* at Yamaha recognizes that, for individual Parts in a split, Note Shift is the more desirable behavior. Apparently that person is not on the Montage/MODX team. 🙁

What you say, and suggest, is part of the confusion we were trying to highlight.

To be clear, this isn't yet another request for "note shift" rather than "transpose" 

. . .

 rather this is a request for the new "octave" button on the individual Parts to function as note shift rather than transpose.

Well they do function as 'note shift rather than transpose'. But ONLY for internal parts! For external parts they are transpose rather than note shift.

And here is the really odd/messy part. Those settings are the ones on the Zone Settings screen. So it is the zone settings screen that acts differently for internal vs. external parts. Worse, for internal parts both the zone settings params AND the pitch screen Note Shift param are added together.

All we were trying to hightlight is that Yamaha can't just fix your issue - they need to rething/rework the entire functional area:

1. Zone Settings params are used for internal parts but should really only be used for external parts

2. Zone Settings params use note shift for internal parts but use transpose for external parts

3. Performance screen params show zone settings params for both internal and external but should really show pitch screen params for internal and zone screen params for external parts

4. scene screen settings (new in Montage M OS 3.0) show pitch screen params for internal parts but zone settings params for external parts.

All of the above needs to be straightened out before they can then consider your request to allow the user to choose what is happening for each part type (internal/external).

P.154 of the 'v300_K0' operations doc for the Montage M shows the new 'Note Limit' memory switch. That was added in the OS 3.0 update in late June. It allows you to save the keyboard split (Note Limit) and Note Shift for each part. But it has the same issues listed above.

For external parts the 'Note Shift' shown is a transpose amount computed by using the Octave Shift and Transpose (semitone) values from the Zone settings screen. Both of those are 'transpose' even though one is labeled 'Shift' and they are added together. So an octave shift of +2 and a transpose of + 5 becomes +29 on the scene screen.

Except for internal parts the scene screen shows the pitch screen note shift param but the performance screen shows the zone settings screen Octave Shift and Transpose values. So the scene screen isn't showing the value that is actually going to be used which, as mentioned above, is a combination of the two.

Then, of course, there are the global Note Shift, Octave Shift and Transpose settings on the Utility->Settings->Sound screen. They are all global to the instrument but Note shift is a shift but both Octave Shift and Transpose are transpose which change the MIDI number. And that is without regard to whether a part is internal or external.

Another complication is that internal parts don't sent MIDI out if there are any external parts even if those external parts aren't being used. But they do send their MIDI out if there are no external parts and all of those different levels of note 'changes' get applied.

Our opinion is they need to redesign that area of functionality once they determine what rules they want to implement.

Almost afraid to mention the 'Performance Note Shift' that was added in OS 3.0 shown on p.213.

The 'Shift' column for each part shows values from the parts 'pitch' screen for both internal and external parts. But for an external part that value will get ignored even though it is showing.

And the 'Perf Note Shift' value is note shift for internal parts but Transpose for external parts.

An internal part with -2 for 'shift' and +2 for 'perf note shift' will sound as if no change was made since they will get added together. But change the part to external and that C3 will sound like D3 and the midi sent will be note 62 due to the transpose.

Believe us when we say we support your idea but there is a lot more going on that needs to be taken into account before Yamaha could even begin to implement what you want without making even more of a mess.

The OS 3.0 update added the 'Perf Note Shift' and the scene memory note shift and they have the same issues that have been reported on for a decade now as shown by the thread links provided.

Seriously - we WANT you to submit your own IdeaScale suggestion because we've seen no indication yet that they are taking any of these issues seriously.

The note shifting stuff they added this round is geared towards setting up Performances with lots of time in the studio.  It's good for the pre-bake crowd.  Other posts from Scott inform me he's more of an on-the-fly from scratch player.  Something that gums up the works since Yamaha hasn't really been trying to improve that use case.

It's important for Scott and others in this camp to bring this perspective to the table.  I'm happy to amplify as I agree these are deficiencies.   I don't think currently Yamaha has received enough of this perspective given most of what they target is the pre-baked usage.

Posted by: Toby

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What you say, and suggest, is part of the confusion we were trying to highlight.

To be clear, this isn't yet another request for "note shift" rather than "transpose" 

. . .

 rather this is a request for the new "octave" button on the individual Parts to function as note shift rather than transpose.

Well they do function as 'note shift rather than transpose'. But ONLY for internal parts! For external parts they are transpose rather than note shift.

Nope. At least not when I tried it on a MODX M. It functioned as transpose (MIDI shift) for internal parts. That's why some of my keys were suddenly silent when I changed the "Oct" setting of Part 2 (displaying Int: Piano) in my example above. If I were controlling an Ext sound, you'd see that box enabled instead of Int, and I wouldn't have this complaint. 😉 So your subsequent lines related to "zones" (points 1-2-3-4) and other internal-external combination issues do not apply to the scenario I was describing (zones only being external, in yamaha-speak).

What I want is for setting Oct button to +1 (on an INTERNAL part) to be a shortcut for "Edit button-->Pitch button-->Note Shift field-->increase by 12" (instead of performing the MIDI-shifting Transpose function). But I think you're saying this is what it already does. Is it possible that this works the way you describe (and the way I want) on the Montage M, but something here is different on the MODX M?

It's VERY possible the Modx M  works differently. Especially since the OS version is still way behind where the Montage M models are. They may have wanted to kick the Modx M models out the door once they had the basics working.

Blake has announced there will be an OS update to the Modx M around January NAMM time that will include the availability of ESP for the Modx M.

Although we can't give you definitive answers about the Modx M since we don't have access to one we are trying to at least give you a reference point on what the Montage M8X does. Hopefully that will help you determine what is working differently on the Modx M even if there isn't any info available about WHY it works differently.

That is just how it is with new product releases - you seldom know how it is SUPPOSED to work. And if you only have access to one instrument or model you don't really know if a different model will work the same or not.

So the more feedback people can provide on IdeaScale or via the 'Contact Us' link at the bottom right of this, and most, page the better. Our experience is that we seldom, if ever, get any feedback on IdeaScale postings since they are usually longer-term issues tied to development/release cycles.

But we have had good luck with the 'Contact Us' link getting feedback from support when we report an issue that is causing a real problem or with questions that can be easily answered.

Comparisons between Montage M and Modx M will be of reduced value until the January OS update and that's assuming the functionality is really intended to be fairly compatible.

We are hoping that the January NAMM will see an OS update and a doc update for both instrument series.

Posted by: Toby

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It's VERY possible the Modx M  works differently.

If anyone with a Montage M is seeing this, I'd love to know, if you bring up the exact Performance from my screenshot above ("Bass+RideCym/Piano"), and you hit the Oct button in part 2 (the piano part, assigned to the higher key range) and set it to -1 (to shift the piano sound down an octave), what happens when you hit the keys immediately to the right of the uppermost bass+cym keys? Do you get the piano sound (shifted down an octave in pitch compared to before you made the change), or do you get silent keys?

M8X - silence.

1. Part 1 note range is C-2 to B2 and an internal part

2. Part 2 note range is C3 to G8 and an internal part

3. The 'Oct' and 'Trans' settings on the home screen (your pic in initial post) are 'Note Shift' for internal parts

4. Note shift affects the tone generator but not MIDI out

5. A note shift of -1 octave tells the tone generator to produce a sound 1 octave below normal for part 1

6. one octave below the sound of C3 is C2

7. pressing C3 (middle C)  - silence - C2 is OUTSIDE the note range for part 2

As you're playing, you realize that--considering the relatively small number of keys you have available for Rhodes--you really would like to shift the Rhodes sound up or down an octave, to get to the notes you really want. Let's say down, for this example, to illustrate the issue. Shifting the octave of a single part during a live performance can be quite easy on some boards, and nearly impossible on others. MODX is in that latter category, 

The Montage M is also in that 'latter' category. But, worse, on the M models an external part will NOT sound on the instrument itself. A part is strictly internal (on the instrument - no midi sent if any external parts exist) or external (does not sound on the instrument. You can't have it both ways.

To increase that 'small number of keys' for part 2 you need to TRANSPOSE an octave higher, not lower. There are two problems with that. First transpose on the M is global for internal parts and not at the part level. Second, being global, it will transpose ALL internal parts.

Since part 1 in your example is internal it will also get transposed. But isn't that what you want? You don't want a single key to play both bass and Rhodes do you?

On the Montage M you would load your example performance and use the front panel [OCTAVE] button +1 setting to TRANSPOSE the entire keyboard UP one octave.

So pressing middle C now produces C4 instead of C3 which means the Rhodes range now begins at the physical C2 key giving you a range of C3 (using the C2 key) to C8 (using the C7 key). That gives you 8 more keys to use.

If you want the keys on the lower end instead of the higher end you would use [OCTAVE] -1

In either case the TRANSPOSE of both parts keeps the parts separate so they don't overlap

There is no 'part' transpose except for external parts

-----------------------------------

Stop reading here if you've had enough - the below is an attempt to explain the transpose/note shift 'mess' as it applies to your example.

-----------------------------------

Let's start with your graphic from the 1st post and you have just changed the part 2 'Oct' setting to -1

1. Notice the performance (utility) settings show +0 for both Octave Shift (a transpose) and Transpose

2. The -1 'Oct' setting for part 2 is shown as 'Octave Shift' on the Zone Settings screen even though part 2 is an internal part. This really is a note shift. But if you change part 2 to external it will become a transpose instead and change the MIDI note value sent externally.

3. The part 2 Pitch screen shows +0 Note Shift even though the 'Oct' setting of -1 is really a note shift of -12

4. The new 'Note Limit' memory tab on the scene screen will show +0 for 'Note Shift' because part 2 is an internal part. For internal parts that param value comes from the pitch screen which has a value of +0 (see #3 above).

5. Change part 2 to external and the scene screen will now show -12 for 'Note Shift' because for external parts that param value comes from the Zone Settings screen where it has a value of -1 (see #2 above).

The GOOD NEWS? (if there is any) - maybe just using the front panel [OCTAVE] +1 setting will do what you want.

Posted by: Toby

↑

M8X - silence.

Okay, so that is consistent with my MODX M experience. But to me, that indicates it is Yamaha's "Transpose" function at play. which shifts MIDI notes (which is why, through multiple generations of Yamahas, the physical location of split points shifts when you hit the Transpose button). Yamaha's "Note Shift" function changes the pitch of a note, but does not change its physical location. In my test case here, it is the changing of physical locations of sound assignments that is yielding the silent keys in the example we're talking about... so "Transpose" rather than "Note Shift." Or am I missing something? 

Posted by: Toby

↑

1. Part 1 note range is C-2 to B2 and an internal part

2. Part 2 note range is C3 to G8 and an internal part

3. The 'Oct' and 'Trans' settings on the home screen (your pic in initial post) are 'Note Shift' for internal parts

4. Note shift affects the tone generator but not MIDI out

5. A note shift of -1 octave tells the tone generator to produce a sound 1 octave below normal for part 1

6. one octave below the sound of C3 is C2

7. pressing C3 (middle C)  - silence - C2 is OUTSIDE the note range for part 2

The MIDI value of C2 is indeed outside the note range for part 2. That's the whole problem. It is using a Transpose (MIDI note shift) function. If it were using what Yamaha calls the Note Shift (not Transpose) function, it would alter the pitch without altering the MIDI note. That's why, for years on the MODX, I would use global Note Shift to transpose a split Performance rather than Transpose... because Transpose would shift the physical locations of the split points, while Note Shift would leave every sound on the keys I wanted them to be assigned to, and merely alter their pitch.

Maybe my understanding of what's going on beneath the hood is off, so maybe something in my description there is inaccurate. But on the experiential level, in a split, based on my MODX experience, Note Shift does not alter what key is playing what sound, while Transpose does. The fact that I get silent notes in my MODX M example means it is altering what key is playing what sound (or in this case, any sound at all). That's why I'm saying that what you're referring to as a Note Shift operation in your numbered list above appears to be functioning a Transpose operation (in yamaha-speak), rather than the Note Shift I am looking for.

Posted by: Toby

↑

To increase that 'small number of keys' for part 2 you need to TRANSPOSE an octave higher, not lower. There are two problems with that. First transpose on the M is global for internal parts and not at the part level. Second, being global, it will transpose ALL internal parts.

Since part 1 in your example is internal it will also get transposed But isn't that what you want? You don't want a single key to play both bass and Rhodes do you?

I believe you're talking about what would happen if I used the front panel Octave +/- button, right?

No I don't want a single key to play both bass and Rhodes. But I want the pitch of the Rhodes to drop an octave, while leaving the pitch of the bass sound untouched. And I want the split point to remain consistent. And I want no silent notes. And I want to be able to do that octave-drop of the Rhodes pitch in less than 4 beats of playing time. I was hoping the Part level Oct button would let me do that, but it gave me silent notes instead. (Which may make sense to an engineer, but I have a hard time imagining why there would be any musical benefit to having it work that way. As it is, the function is fine if you want to shift a layered part, but is of questionable value if you want to shift a split part, since it may or may not work... unless there is some way around the limitation I am describing.)

I'm skipping by some of what you said after that, either because it involved references to external parts (not directly relevant to the task at hand), new Scene parameters (not yet on the MODX M), or because it made my head spin. 😉

Posted by: Toby

↑

The GOOD NEWS? (if there is any) - maybe just using the front panel [OCTAVE] +1 setting will do what you want.

If the front panel Octave control is used, assuming it works the way it did on the original MODX, that will move my split point. In addition, an Octave +1 will not give me any lower piano notes when I hit that button (my goal)... rather it will give me an octave of higher ones while simultaneously taking away my lowest octave of bass notes. As the famous line goes, I think "what we've got here is a failure to communicate." 😉

No - the example is using 'Note Shift'. Transpose changes the MIDI note generated. If you press middle C with NO transpose in effect it will produce MIDI note 60. Use a note shift of +2 it will still produce midi note 60 but that note will now sound like midi note 62. Use a transpose of +2 semitones and the key will produce midi note 62 AND sound like midi note 62.

You can verify the above using a midi monitor like MIDI-OX.

But to me, that indicates it is Yamaha's "Transpose" function at play. which shifts MIDI notes (which is why, through multiple generations of Yamahas, the physical location of split points shifts when you hit the Transpose button).

Bad Mister first explained the difference between transpose and note shift back in 2018:

https://yamahasynth.com/community/montage-series-synthesizers/transpose-in-live-sets/#post-30328

Although the Transpose and Note Shift parameters accomplish similar things, they are not the same. Transpose, in the way Yamaha is defining it, is a function of transmitting and therefore external MIDI devices are affected. Note Shift is a function of receiving, and therefore only the MONTAGE is affected. That's first to understand.

. . .

The Octave -/+ and Transpose -/+ front panel functions affect the KEYBOARD and therefore, what gets transmitted Out via MIDI when the Keys are engaged. So the Tone Generator responds as well when you TRANSPOSE - you are no longer sending note #60 when you play middle C.

 

Back to your example.

In my test case here, it is the changing of physical locations of sound assignments that is yielding the silent keys in the example we're talking about... so "Transpose" rather than "Note Shift." Or am I missing something? 

Yes - you are still missing something.

Your example is NOT changing the 'physical locations of sound assignments. When you press middle C your example is STILL producing midi note 60. A midi monitor will show you that.

1. you press middle C

2. A transpose will change the midi note generated but a note shift will not.

3. Then any transpose/note shift settings get applied.

4. Then the note limits are checked against the adjusted note values from step #3.

5. In your example the -1 octave shift adjusted the value used in step #4 above to C2 so it gets filtered out due to the parts note range settings. The tone generator never sees it.

It is important to distinguish between the MIDI path and the SOUND path. MIDI is NOT sound. Transpose affects midi note values. Note Shift affects SOUND values but not MIDI values. 

The MIDI value of C2 is indeed outside the note range for part 2. That's the whole problem. It is using a Transpose (MIDI note shift) function.

I know it can be confusing but it is NOT using a transpose.

If it were using what Yamaha calls the Note Shift (not Transpose) function, it would alter the pitch without altering the MIDI note.

YES! And that is exactly what it is doing as a midi monitor will confirm. It is NOT altering the MIDI note but it IS altering the pitch.

1. Load that performance and you should see the same screen you posted initially.

2. Now Leave the part settings alone but change the 'Octave Shift' setting on the line above (next to 'MIDI I/O Ch.') to -1 and play middle C.

3. You will hear part 1.

4. play the C above middle C and you now hear the bottom note of the Rhodes and a midi monitor will show C2 instead of the normal C3 (for yamaha)

That is what a transpose does. 

Note Shift does not alter what key is playing what sound, while Transpose does.

You are mixing up note shift and transpose. In 'Yamaha speak' that 'what key is playing' means 'what MIDI note does this key generate' and that is controlled ONLY by a transpose and is MIDI-related so determines what note value gets sent externally.

But 'what sound', in 'Yamaha speak' means 'what should the tone generator produce. Both the transpose and note shift settings are evaluated to determine a 'sound value' for the key that was pressed. The note limit range is checked for EVERY part and if that 'sound value' is within a parts note range the tone generator will receive that signal for processing.

KEY POINT: there is only ONE physical keyboard and transpose affects it. When you transpose it is just as if every key was picked up and moves 'n' places to the left or right.

But each part has its own note limit range. Any given key press could get sent to all 8 keyboard controlled parts. Further, each AWM2 element also has a key range which can, and does, further filter out any 'sound value' that isn't it its range.

The fact that I get silent notes in my MODX M example means it is altering what key is playing what sound (or in this case, any sound at all).

Yes and No. No - it is NOT 'altering what key is playing' as a midi monitor will show you.

Yes - it IS altering 'what sound' is being generated because both a transpose and a note shift will do that.

That's why I'm saying that what you're referring to as a Note Shift operation in your numbered list above appears to be functioning a Transpose operation (in yamaha-speak), rather than the Note Shift I am looking for.

That is where we disagree. By definition - transpose alters the MIDI number that is generated. Since your example is NOT altering the midi number then, again by definition, it can NOT be a transpose.

No I don't want a single key to play both bass and Rhodes. But I want the pitch of the Rhodes to drop an octave, while leaving the pitch of the bass sound untouched. And I want the split point to remain consistent.

Then you need to set the 'Note Shift' value to -12 on the part 2 Pitch screen and leave the other settings alone.

Pressing middle C (C3) will now produce the sound of C2 and pressing the B2 will still be the upper key of the bass part.

That is part of what I was trying to explain about the mess involved because Yamaha is using values from the zone settings screen for internal parts but not treating them the same as for external parts.

For internal parts they are using note shift for both the pitch screen changes and the zone settings screen changes but are processing them differently and also displaying them differently on the home screen, the part screens, the scene screens and the common->general/pitch->pitch screen that shows the new 'Perf Note Shift' param and each parts Shift and Detune settings. On that screen the value displayed for parts also depends on whether it is internal or external.

I'm skipping by some of what you said after that, either because it involved references to external parts (not directly relevant to the task at hand), new Scene parameters (not yet on the MODX M), or because it made my head spin. 

We debated among ourselves whether to include all of that but decided it would give it more context and could be useful when the impending OS update is released since that release SHOULD make the Modx M compatible.

On the Montage M models a part is strictly either internal or external. You can't make a part external and also have it play on the instrument.

We haven't seen/heard anyone confirm if that is also now true on the Modx M models.

As the famous line goes, I think "what we've got here is a failure to communicate." 

Classic movie 'Cool Hand Luke' with Paul Newman and said by the prison, chain gang, boss.

I can't access the MODX M at the moment, to see what MIDI is sent out in different circumstances, but I will assume everything you said is correct. But even if my understanding of the mechanism behind it was somehow mis-stated or downright wrong, the audible result is the same. When I tap "Oct down" on the piano part (from within the Performance screen), I end up with silent keys.

Posted by: Toby

↑

I want the pitch of the Rhodes to drop an octave, while leaving the pitch of the bass sound untouched. And I want the split point to remain consistent.

Then you need to set the 'Note Shift' value to -12 on the part 2 Pitch screen and leave the other settings alone.

Okay, so you're saying that Note Shift -12 on Part 2 from the Pitch screen works to do what I want, which is exactly what I'd expect it to do, and is consistent with how it worked on the original MODX. But you are also saying that the "Oct -1" function on Part 2 of the Performance screen is Note Shift... yet it is NOT yielding the same audible result as a -12 semitone Note Shift on the Part 2 Pitch screen! Instead, it is shifting which keys are triggering the part, similar to how the Transpose function would work. I will trust that you are correct in saying that, if one were to examine the MIDI, what it is doing is not actually consistent with the Transpose function. However, the function is also not consistent with the usual Note Shift function (i.e. it does not produce the same result as when you engage a 12 semitone Note Shift function on that same part from the Pitch screen, it yields those silent keys instead). So maybe there's a third possible "internal sound pitch shifting mechanism" happening here that is not quite identical in behavior to either Transpose or Note Shift as we know them from Montage/MODX (and prior)?

So while I may have erred in saying that the button was function as "Transpose" (based on what I was hearing and the keys I was hitting, without looking at the MIDI), it sounds like I was still correct in saying it is NOT behaving as Note Shift has normally behaved (i.e. it does not behave the way Note Shift behaves if you invoke it on that same part from the Pitch screen instead). So even if I am not properly describing what the button is currently doing, I think I am accurate in describing what I want it to do: I want the Performance screen Part 2 Oct button to behave identically to a +/-12 Note Shift function on the part 2 Pitch screen. I referred to that as making that button behave as Note Shift. you're saying it already is Note Shift, but you can see it does not behave like the Note Shift function on the Pitch screen (which, as you point out, would do what I want). 

If the MIDI tells you it's not Transpose as it is implemented by the Transpose buttons, while the silent keys tell you it's not Note Shift as it is implemented on the Pitch screens either, maybe simply calling it either one of those things is not quite accurate... but the point is that I think it should function the same as Note Shift as it is implemented on the Pitch screens.

Yamaha has never been that consistent with terminology. But now you know why I said this in the first reply:

For whatever reason Yamaha doesn't seem to be giving the transpose/note shift 'mess' a high enough priority to get a fix in the works. 

From at least 2018 to your current thread there have been over a dozen repeated reports and requests for a fix yet none have been forthcoming.

As you have shown it is incredibly easy to demo the issue and why it needs to be addressed. What I reported in earlier comments wasn't based on 'memory' - we did your example and then looked at every single screen, and midi monitoring, and I just reported the results we saw. 

Admittedly almost any 'fix' that is done will break backward compatibility because there will be 'something' that just won't give the same result for the same settings. But 'paralysis by analysis' isn't doing anyone any good.

Our devs first started falling down this particular bunny hole when one of them copied a part and, when they realized it was an external part, changed it to internal and we started getting results that didn't match what we saw on the screens.

That is when we discovered that internal parts use a combination of the pitch screen Note Shift and Detune settings AND the Zone Settings screen Octave Shift and Transpose settings. 

Since the M models no longer have that ZONE switch it seems to us that an internal part shouldn't be using anything on the Zone Settings screen.

We've made repeated requests to Yamaha Support to at least explain what the intended behaviour is but have never even gotten any acknowledgements to our request.

That is why we have been urging you to do your own IdeaScale submission to try to bring the issue to the forefront again.

Sorry for the earlier lengthy replies but we wanted to be as through as possible.

This particular problem is not that old, though, since the Montage M has only been around for 2 years (previous gen didn't have an Octave button on the Performance screen).

But my attempts at clarification here are not just academic. If I'm going to put this on ideascale, I want to describe the problem accurately, including using the correct terms for the behaviors. 

Which brings me to this: I was thinking that it was good that you taught me that I should not refer to the current Octave button behavior as "Transpose" as I did initially, since while subjectively (to the player) it appears to behave like Transpose (if you're only splitting internal sounds), it is (at least to your way of thinking, e.g. having looked at the MIDI) a Note Shift function, even though still not identical in operation to the Note Shift function as accessed via the Pitch screen. But then I was thinking... wait, didn't I see something different in the manual? And here's how they describe it...

This gets back to your comment, "We've made repeated requests to Yamaha Support to at least explain what the intended behaviour is but have never even gotten any acknowledgements to our request." I agree that knowing what the intended behavior is can help in discussing the issue. In this case, they seem to be saying that their intent is for the Octave button on this screen to function like the Octave button on the panel (which is basically a 12-unit version of the traditional Yamaha Transpose). And to my way of thinking, it does function that way, and that's exactly what's wrong with it from a usability perspective (i.e. leading to situations where which keys are playing a given sound can shift, which is a characteristic of front panel transpose and octave functions, but is not a characteristic of pitch screen Note Shift).

Possibly of note... they do not say that the Transpose button is similarly linked to the Transpose button on the panel. Maybe the two work differently, and the latter actually does function like Note Shift. Is it possible that all the back and forth confusion between us is because you were talking about the Performance screen's  Transpose button (which may indeed be doing a Note Shift as you've been saying), while I've been talking about its nearby Octave button (which clearly does not work the same way as the Note Shift function on the Pitch screen)? (Like I said, I don't have access to the MODX M at the moment, so can't offer any input on the behavior of the Performance screen Transpose button, which I never tried.)

It's also kind of interesting that they have that note about how it substitutes notes if you call for a sound that is out of range. It seems they specifically want to avoid unintentionally silent keys! It's unclear, though, whether that is supposed to apply only to the item immediately above (Transpose) or also to Octave Shift.

Anyway, if in fact you were indeed talking about the performance screen transpose button while I was talking about the performance screen octave button, maybe our perspectives are more aligned than first thought. If not, I have some other thoughts, but I won't bother with them now, in case it turns out they're not relevant after all.

Please clarify what 'button' you are referring to.

wait, didn't I see something different in the manual? And here's how they describe it...

That graphic appears to be the one from p.78 of the Modx M op manual. The Montage M manual has an equivalent on p. 120 and I can only comment on that one. I would expect the Modx M to be the same but have no way of knowing.

For the Montage M (p. 120) the text in the graphic 'Octave Shift (Keyboard Octave Shift)' and 'Transpose (Keyboard Transpose)' refer to the Utility screen settings - not the part settings. They are one and the same and affect the instrument as a whole. They are both 'TRANSPOSE' in that they change the MIDI note number a key generates. And they are both the same as using the front panel OCTAVE or (shifted) TRANSPOSE buttons.

For each part you can see 'Oct' and 'Trans' settings. Neither one changes the MIDI note number a key generates. So I refer to that as 'note shifting' and not transpose. They are NOT the same as the front panel buttons.

And those 'Oct' and 'Trans' settings on the home screen will be found on the parts 'Zone Settings' screen and NOT on the parts 'Pitch' screen. And on the M8X those home screen settings for an internal part (which are found on the zone settings screen) do NOT show up on the new scene 'Note Limit' screen. 

It isn't clear which of those home screen params you refer to as 'buttons.

I was thinking that it was good that you taught me that I should not refer to the current Octave button behavior as "Transpose" as I did initially,

Not clear there which 'buttons' you refer to.

And to my way of thinking, it does function that way, and that's exactly what's wrong with it from a usability perspective (i.e. leading to situations where which keys are playing a given sound can shift, which is a characteristic of front panel transpose and octave functions, but is not a characteristic of pitch screen Note Shift).

As mentioned above those home screen part settings are NOT the same as the 'pitch screen Note Shift'. Another one of those areas of confusion. Why is Yamaha using/displaying zone settings params for internal parts?

Possibly of note... they do not say that the Transpose button is similarly linked to the Transpose button on the panel. Maybe the two work differently, and the latter actually does function like Note Shift.

Again which 'Transpose' button do you refer to? The 'Oct' and 'Trans' for the part on the home screen? Or the ones on the line above the part that are really the Utility screen params?

The top ones (utility screen) ARE transpose and change the MIDI note generated. The ones for the part (internal parts) are note shift even though they are the ones on the zone settings screen. 

Yes - the two work differently.

It's also kind of interesting that they have that note about how it substitutes notes if you call for a sound that is out of range. It seems they specifically want to avoid unintentionally silent keys! It's unclear, though, whether that is supposed to apply only to the item immediately above (Transpose) or also to Octave Shift.

Sorry - explaining that is going to be just as confusing as everything else has been.

The MIDI spec says middle C is MIDI Note Number 60. But the spec does NOT say which octave that is. Yamaha labels it C3 but many other manufacturers label it C4.

The MIDI spec allows MIDI note values from 0 to 127. Using Yamaha's 'C3 is middle C' system that range is C-2 to G8

But using the 'C4 is middle C' system the range is C-1 to G9.

Those ranges define the 'pitch' of the sound - meaning Hz or frequency. So the note is saying that if the settings would result in a 'pitch' that is out of range it will use a 'pitch' that is an octave higher or lower. It has nothing to do with avoiding 'silent keys' at all or anything to do with the note shift or transpose settings.

Anyway, if in fact you were indeed talking about the performance screen transpose button while I was talking about the performance screen octave button,

Again - the performance screen in your graphic has TWO SETS of 'buttons' - one set (the top row) are instrument level and even though they appear on the performance home screen they are NOT performance settings and will not change when you load a different performance. So if you change those you need to remember to put them back to neutral when you go to the next performance.

The 'Oct'  and 'Trans' shown for each part might also be called 'buttons' so that is why it isn't clear which of the two sets you refer to. I have tried to keep mentioning BOTH sets to help avoid that confusion but may not have been successful in that.

It's good to keep beating on this topic because it has a lot of twists and turns. Hopefully Jason will chime in and offer a different perspective. 

We wholeheartedly agree that the core of your suggestion (if we understand it properly) is that not matter what you call it the user needs a reliable way to intentionally specify what they want done as regards to internal/external parts and keyboard 'splits'. 

And currently they don't have a way to do that.