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Could you possibly post a simple example so we can run some tests of our own? The simpler the example the better. For instance two perfs based ONLY on Init Normal (AWM2) would be good if that demos the problem.

We believe you when you say there is a problem but there are so many variables that might be involved we don't want to find ourselves in a lot of 'bunny' holes.

When fading out a performance by foot controller (set to CC11) while switching to the next performance, that new performance gets stuck in the low expression value where you left the previous performance if it has not set the foot controller also to CC11. 

Sometimes we use the foot controller for the superknob, sometimes for expression, sometimes for something else. That's the whole point of being able to switch the CC number per performance. It does need a fix to reset the value when switching to a new performance, because otherwise there is no way to reach that parameter anymore if the foot controller is set to something else. The performance becomes unusable until you select it again.

That highlights some of those 'variables':

1. Is SSS (Seamless Sound Switching) at play for your use case? That could make a difference.

2. There are global CC assignments

3. There are performance level CC assignmens that will override the globals if you change them

4. There is a global hold/reset parameter that indicates whether a new performance should 'Hold' the current controller values or 'Reset' them (all of them) to their defaults - the defaults are listed in the docs.

5. The global hold/reset parm is totally independent of the actual CC assignment for each controller.

6. A physical controller only has one physical position but if the hold/reset is set to 'reset' a new performance will see the default value for that controller REGARDLESS of the physical position the controller is actually in. That is the 'GOTCHA' that is often seen with the faders/sliders where you have to physically move the controller to 'sync' things up.

7. Which 'foot controller' are you using? What controller (make/model) is it and which jack is it plugged into?

8. Foot Controller 1, by default is set to CC11 so all preset performances will have that already assigned.

9. With your 'old' perf you moved the controller and then switched performances. The 'new' perf might have the same controller assigned but the 'hold/reset' value will determine what value it actually sees.

If 'hold' is used ('reset' is the default) the 'new' perf will see the current controller value that represents the current physical controller position. So as soon as you move the pedal both performances will be affected by the pedal. But, as you mentioned each perf may have the pedal defined differently.

When fading out a performance by foot controller (set to CC11) while switching to the next performance, that new performance gets stuck in the low expression value where you left the previous performance if it has not set the foot controller also to CC11. 

That is what we are interested in checking out because it doesn't agree with what we would have expected and we want to know why.

We would expect a 'stuck in the low expression value' to happen when the hold/reset' parm is set to 'hold'. And we would NOT expect it to have anything to do with the CC the controller is assigned to or if the 'new' performance has it assigned to a different CC than the 'old' performance.

So if hold/reset is set to 'hold' we would expect the 'new' performance to get stuck with that 'low expression value' even though a different CC is being used.

You've raised an interesting issue.

By the way what instrument are you using? Montage? What model?

My guess ...

Recall the "Init Normal AWM2" preset - Set foot controller 1 to CC 11.  [STORE] as "Eleven"

Recall the "Init Normal AWM2" preset - Set foot controller 1 to CC 14.  [STORE] as "Fourteen"

Connect an FC7 to foot controller 1.

To make things easy although not needed put "Eleven" and "Fourteen" next to each other in Live Set. 

Touch "Eleven" in live set and sweep the FC7 from heel to toe and back down to heel.  Shouldn't be able to hear anything when bashing the keyboard.

Touch "Fourteen" in live set.  The complaint is that CC11=0 from the last Performance persists and now this Performance is also silent.

If I were doing this I'd also look at the hold function (controller hold or reset) and see if settings are held or reset by configuration.  If CC11 didn't persist then I'd try changing the configuration to "hold" instead of "reset".   Going by memory so I'm not accurately saying what the setting is called exactly.  Anyhow, this setting a certain way may be necessary to produce the problem.  Or... Not.

Neither of those tests reproduced the problem on an M8X.

No doubt OP has an issue so maybe the can provide a test case. This is the part I don't understand

that new performance gets stuck in the low expression value where you left the previous performance if it has not set the foot controller also to CC11. 

I  don't follow how the 'new' perf could get 'stuck' in the value the 'old' perf is using regardless of what CC the new perf is using for the controller.

For the default controller 'Reset' the new perf is going to start off with a fresh set of values copied from the globals.

For the 'Hold' setting the new perf is going to start off with a copy of the current controller values rather than a copy of the globals

In either case the new perf will have its own set of values and its own envelopes.

The above is our understanding so maybe OP can shed more light on it.

Just as an FYI a month or so ago we submitted idea #3239 'Montage M - implement more granular Controller Hold/Reset functionality' to address two areas: 1) the 'Reset/Hold' is at the global level rather than the performance level and 2) the 'Reset/Hold' affects ALL of the controllers.

We suggested having 1) 'Reset/Hold' at the performance level so each incoming performance could decide for itself how to deal with the controllers and 2) having separate switches for each controller so each controller could be treated separately. Ben moved that idea to the 'Assessment' stage a couple of days ago but it isn't clear whether that is really an indication of anything.

The 'Complete' category doesn't seem to indicate completed ideas. There are 26 ideas in 'Complete' for the Montage/MODX/MODX+ thread and all of them have been marked 'Reserve'. 

No new submissions are planned from us until the new OS 3.0 update is available for testing. We'd like to use that release as the new 'baseline' going forward. After we know what the new release has, and doesn't have, we plan to resubmit some of the old ideas if they haven't been included.

Hi, thanks for helping to figure this out.

For the record, the next performance only get's stuck in low expression when switching performances WHILE moving the foot controller. If I hold it steady and switch to the next performance, it has a normal expression value. 

I use an FC7, and controller mode is set to "Reset". I have it plugged into Foot controller 2 because I mostly use it with the superknob, but sometimes I need expression so I change the control number from foot controller 2 from "superknob" to "CC11" in the performance.

I can recreate this problem on both my Montage M7's and on every performance I have foot controller 2 set to CC11 that switches to a performance where foot controller 2 is set to default "superknob". All my performances have SSS active, but I can also recreate the problem when SSS is inactive.

Actually, switching to a performance that also has FC2 set to CC11 will also recreate this situation. However, this is not considered a problem because you still have the expression value "grabbed" by the pedal.

Just did a test and I could also recreate the problem on the foot controller 1 socket. 

Regards,

Stef

Still can't reproduce the issue on an M8X.

The nearest we can come is reproducing the 'hook' effect that physical controllers use to sync the physical controller position with the 'stored in software' logical position.

Bad Mister explains that issue here:

https://yamahasynth.com/community/montage-series-synthesizers/superknob-foot-controller-not-always-working/#post-112871

Super Knob position is a storable parameter. You will observe that some Performances have the Super Knob stored a 0, others will have it stored at 127, and still others might have it stored straight up at 12 o’clock (64)… it literally can be stored at any value 0~127.

The position of your physical FC7 Foot Controller can be wherever you left it last. By MIDI convention, the default value for a Foot Control pedal is 127.
When you recall a Performance the stored position of the Super Knob is shown by the red LEDs that surround it. Your Foot Control must be moved and do what is called “hook” the value. Until you do, the pedal will seemingly not work.

When you recall a Performance, “CFX + FM EP”, for example, the Super knob is stored at 0 which causes the acoustic piano (CFX) to sound, if you turn the KNOB clockwise you will morph to the electric piano (FM EP). However, if you wish to do this with the Foot Controller you must “hook” the 0 value for the pedal to become live before you can change its current value.

Heel down position for a pedal is 0
Toe down position for a pedal is 127

Return the pedal to full heel down position, this will “hook” the value and make your Foot Controller “live”. Now when operate the pedal the Super Knob value will change corresponding to the pedal position.

The Slider icons work the same way… the lighted position of the Sliders show the stored value, you must move the physical Slider through the stored value for it to hook the value and become live.

 

That would be the 1st thing to rule out. Seems to us you are already aware of the 'hook' thing and have ruled that out but we mention it just to be sure.

I use an FC7, and controller mode is set to "Reset". 

 As Bad Mister says above that means when you switch to the 'new' performance the 'logical' position of the foot controller will become 127 but the physical position will be headed towards zero as you do the fade-out on the 'old' performance.

If the logical position is 127 the hook will occur when the pedal is fully depressed which isn't going to happen if you are moving the pedal for the fade-out.

Have you considered doing the fade-out a different way, perhaps by triggering a motion sequence to do it? There are several threads that explain how to do that if you use the search box for 'fade out'

https://yamahasynth.com/community/montage-series-synthesizers/automated-fade-out-via-ms-questions/#post-122768

Until we can reproduce the problem not sure if we can be any more help.

Just to be shure, I made a video to demonstrate. First performance has foot controller 2 set to "CC11", second performance has it set to "Super Knob".

Check the dropbox link:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/5pg7pup9d37f7lry4x5z3/ADiTPKnu4Cxzsbg_wGmywFc?rlkey=5an3x2xw93mma905ovc53h2em&dl=0

I also added pics of the settings Midi I/O and Advanced screen. Montage midi I/O channel is on ch4, but the problem persists when changed to ch1 also. Even without any midi cables connected. (Just to rule that out)

And my second Montage M7 has exactly the same. It is a perfect backup of this Montage. 

The solution of doing a fade out via a motion sequence is not really an option, since I also play a lot of organ patches where I have the foot controller set to CC11. So it's not really about the fade out, but having to remember to not have my foot on the pedal while switching to the next performance is so limiting in my live performance. 

Thanks for the help.

Stef

Success reproducing the issue thanks to the video - it let me see what you were doing with foot and hands.

We reproduced it on an M8X using the current 2.10.1 OS

that new performance gets stuck in the low expression value where you left the previous performance 

WHEN THE PEDAL IS STILL MOVING to the heel down position is the only time we can reproduce it. That is, playing perf #1 put the foot controller (FC7) full 'toe down'. Keeping foot on pedal slowly move the pedal towards 'heel down'.

At some point BEFORE 'heel down' press the INC/YES button to advance to perf #2.

Perf #2 volume will be stuck at the perf #1 volume corresponding to the pedal position when INC/YES was pressed.

If the pedal is not moving (e.g. you take your foot off) when INC/YES is pressed we can't reproduce the problem. 

1. FC7 pedal plugged into Foot Controller #2, FC3A (sustain) pedal plugged into Footswitch Sustain

2. FS Assign -> Live Set+ - this allows the INC/YES button to advance the live set slot (Utility->MIDI I/O screen)

3. Set Hold/Reset to 'Reset' on Utility->MIDI I/O screen 

3. Perf #1 - Init Normal(AWM-2) - set Foot Ctrl2 to CC 11 on Edit->Common->Control->Control Number screen

4. Perf #2 - Init Normal(AWM-2) 

Do the above 'WHEN THE PEDAL IS STILL MOVING' test.

This is definitely an issue and seems unlikely to be 'working as designed'.

We suggest you use the 'Contact Us' link at the bottom right of the page and provide Yamaha with the following:

1. a user file that contains the relevant performances and a Live Set page using them.

2. a brief description of the issue

3. a link to this thread so they can get additional context

Until they can reproduce the problem they won't be able to do much. And the key is for the foot/pedal to be moving towards 'heel down' at the time you press INC/YES to switch to the next live set entry.

Thanks for the video and pics and for hanging in there. Often it is too easy to take comments from others as being dismissive of the issue. The reality is that we can't see: 1) WHAT you are doing, 2) HOW you do it or 3) WHAT results you get. There are too many variables involved to try to guess as to how to replicate someone else's setup.

--------- Bonus Info ---------

Your video shows you pressing INC/YES to switch from perf #1 to perf #2 and getting stuck with that lower volume. Then you MANUALLY press perf #2 on the live set screen and the volume becomes normal.

Our tests show that, instead of using INC/YES, the problem will occur if you just press the perf #2 slot on the live set screen. Then the 2nd press again restores normal volume.

Just pointing out that the INC/YES activity may have NOTHING to do with the problem at all. But if you are doing it and someone else doesn't do it they could get different results and not know why. That is why it is so important for each tester to do things EXACTLY the same way until they can reproduce the problem. Then you can start removing things to see if they really had any impact.

For the record, I just tested it and this problem is still present on the new OS V3.0 update.

Yeah, even if reported on Ideascale on the 19th - the Firmware was already "fully" baked by 6/19.