No.  Parts 9-16 cannot have keyboard control turned on so you cannot group them together like you can Parts 1-8.

You have to target each Part 9-16 individually using its MIDI channel number which always corresponds to its Part Number.   At least for every mode other than Single Channel MIDI mode which I would not recommend using.

You can set up Parts 1-8 with Zone control turned on (both Part and Master).  Then in Part 1 set the MIDI output channel to Part 9, Part 2 output to channel 10 ... and so on.   Then place a MIDI cable.between MIDI OUT and MIDI IN (so called MIDI loop back cable) which will allow for Montage itself to play channels 9-16.  There's some flexibility lost doing this but it does work for "most" cases (YMMV).

Or, if you're OK with having a computer or tablet attached you can use the external device to route incoming MIDI back out to channels 9-16.  This would be similar but would not require setting up zones or changing the MIDI output channels per Part.

Or,.you could find an external MIDI controller that allows 16 zones so you can use it to target all 16 Parts.  If you just want to target Parts 9-16 then you can find one with 8 zones.  A Novation controller I have is 8 zones.  Native instruments controller I have is 16 zone.  Many Kurzwiel synths are 16 zones.

Not being able to turn keyboard control on for Parts 9-16 is a limitation you have to somehow work around.

You have to target each Part 9-16 individually using its MIDI channel number which always corresponds to its Part Number.   At least for every mode other than Single Channel MIDI mode which I would not recommend using.

 

You can set up Parts 1-8 with Zone control turned on (both Part and Master).  Then in Part 1 set the MIDI output channel to Part 9, Part 2 output to channel 10 ... and so on.   Then place a MIDI cable.between MIDI OUT and MIDI IN (so called MIDI loop back cable) which will allow for Montage itself to play channels 9-16.  There's some flexibility lost doing this but it does work for "most" cases (YMMV).

I'm trying to get this to work on my Modx M.  I have a midi cable plugged into MIDI OUT and MIDI IN.

- In Utilty MIDI I/O, I set MIDI IN/OUT to MIDI.

- In Part 1 Zone Settings, I set Tx/Rx Ch to 9

- In Part 9, I didn't change anything.

This doesn't get channel 9 to play.  Is there something else I need to do?  Btw, I don't know what Zone Control is.

Do the words 'new workflow' ring a bell? LOL!

On the M models - things are different.

1. there is no more 'Zone Control'

2. there is no more 'Multi' mode setting

3. parts can no longer be both internal and external

4. internal parts don't send midi externally

The original thread, and comments, pertain to the original instrument.

- In Part 1 Zone Settings, I set Tx/Rx Ch to 9

Internal parts on the M model don't have 'zones' and don't transmit MIDI.

Btw, I don't know what Zone Control is.

That doesn't exist on the M models.

Is there something else I need to do? 

I'm all out of ideas - my previous advice in your other thread didn't seem to help

Have your significant other write that 'new workflow' quote backwards on your forehead.

That way it will be the first thing you see every morning when you look in the mirror!

Sorry - couldn't resist. The M models have several issues related to the changes in zone creation and management.

Okay.  Is there a way a to play parts 9-16 on the Modx M without an external keyboard?

I don't have an M to play with but you should be able to use a DAW or Camelot Pro to reroute your M's MIDI output to target Parts 9-16.  This would be in USB MIDI mode.

Can you provide some specifics about what the goal is for your use case?

There might be some workarounds but we don't know anything about the performance you are using:

1. how many parts is it using?

2. are those AWM2, FM-X, AN-X, Drum or some combination?

3. for AWM2 how many elements is each part using?

The idea would be to consolidate some of the existing parts into fewer parts. AWM2 can use (assign) 128 elements per part

and scenes can be used to control which parts are active at any given time and what those parts are doing.

Is that possible for what you are wanting to do?

 Is there a way a to play parts 9-16 on the Modx M without an external keyboard?

The short answer is 'no' - there is no way for you, the user, to play keys on the keyboard and have all 16 parts make sound.

Can you provide some specifics about what the goal is for your use case?

I'll need to program some synth pop songs for a couple tribute bands (Fleetwood Mac and Tears for Fears) -- transferring over from the Korg Kross.  I got creative with the AWM adding additional elements, and maxed out the eight parts for Little Lies.  I haven't done Tears for Fears yet, but that's going to some creativity, since I've got songs for which I'll add a sample loop (triggering a loop-enabled wave file -- thank you, Melas Waveform editor), and a drum sequencer/pattern.  Now that I think of it, I think I can add the samples and sequencer pattern on the same drum part.  We'll see how it goes.  It might work.  Adding patches as elements on AWM means I get less use of the synth engines, which is unfortunate.

Since I've got the Modx M8, I've got 15 inches of console space I on which I can place a small midi controller.  If need be, I'll just do two boards and two-level stand.  Would be nice to avoid.

For anyone interested, I did a find a possible solution on the Modx M for controlling 9-16 without an external controller a DAW.  It involved using one of parts 1-8 as a dedicated controller for parts 9-16.

• Plug a midi cable into MIDI IN and MIDI OUT.
• In Utility > Settings, set MIDI IN/OUT to MIDI.
• In part 1 (or some other 1-8) Zone Settings:
  • Part Mode: External
  • Transmit: Ch 9 (or some other 9-16)
  • Bank Select and Pgm Change: Off (if you don't do this, the instruments in 9-16 will be saved as default instruments)
• In parts 9-16 Zone Settings, set Tx/Rx to Ch 9 (or whatever channel above you used)

You'll use part 1 to control parts 9-16.  You'll probably want to the set the key ranges on 9-16.

I haven't played around much with this.  Having the midi cable plugged into IN and OUT seems to have some side effects.  Some instruments sound different and the keyboard may be glitchy.  I need to see if it's a viable option.

Ok - but now part 1 won't sound as part 1 but will only sound part 9 (other).

In part 1 (or some other 1-8) Zone Settings:

• Part Mode: External

On the M models an 'external' part won't sound on  the M - it will send it's midi externally - which you then are routing back in as channel 9 (other) to make part 9 sound.

If you don't want to sound part 1 why don't  you just put part 9 into the part 1 slot?

You don't need to explain your reasons if you prefer not to but it makes it harder to help if we don't know what you are trying to accomplish.

On the previous models part 1 could be both internal and external. So you could use that 'loop back' cable to play a key and it would cause both part 1 and part 9 to sound.

But you can't do that on the M models.

maxed out the eight parts for Little Lies

That sounds like some heavy-duty stuff.

I got creative with the AWM adding additional elements

Ok - but with AWM2 it doesn't matter what 'part' an element is in - the most you can have active is 128 polyphony. So if you 'maxed out' parts 1-8 by using all 128 elements there won't be any available to use in parts 9-16.

I haven't done Tears for Fears yet, but that's going to some creativity

Since that can be a separate performance it shouldn't have an impact of the performance you use for 'Little Lies'.

EXCEPT - on the Modx M models SSS (Seamless Sound Switching) is limited to 6 parts. So if you populate parts 7-16 there won't be any SSS. Don't know if that is an issue for you when switching performances but is something to keep in mind if it is.

since I've got songs for which I'll add a sample loop (triggering a loop-enabled wave file -- thank you, Melas Waveform editor), and a drum sequencer/pattern.  Now that I think of it, I think I can add the samples and sequencer pattern on the same drum part.

An AWM2 element, or drum key, can be put to good use as a 'trigger' for arpeggios or patterns so you don't burn a part to do that.

Adding patches as elements on AWM means I get less use of the synth engines, which is unfortunate.

You could use one of the other engines with a restricted key range (bottom/top key) and use that key to trigger arps. That would keep it from affecting the AWM2 polyphony count. Arps and long samples often use polyphony for long periods of time and can end up being the 'oldest' key and subject to note stealing if a polyphony limit is reached.

I've got 15 inches of console space I on which I can place a small midi controller.

That could be used for a notebook/tablet running the ESP software. And that software could provide the parts 9-16 you need.

On the M models an 'external' part won't sound on  the M - it will send it's midi externally - which you then are routing back in as channel 9 (other) to make part 9 sound.

If you don't want to sound part 1 why don't  you just put part 9 into the part 1 slot?

I'm describing a way to make part 1 control all of parts 9-16, not just part 9.  You set parts 10-16 to Tx/Rx Ch9, also.  Yes, part 1 doesn't sound.  So you control 15 parts overall with the keyboard, instead of just 8.

You layer and split parts 9-16 however you want.  I assume you can toggle them on/off with scenes, as well, but I haven't played around with that.

On a general basis that routing should work but there will be some limitations.

I'm describing a way to make part 1 control all of parts 9-16, not just part 9.  You set parts 10-16 to Tx/Rx Ch9, also.  Yes, part 1 doesn't sound.  So you control 15 parts overall with the keyboard, instead of just 8.

You layer and split parts 9-16 however you want.  I assume you can toggle them on/off with scenes, as well, but I haven't played around with that.

You can't toggle parts 9-16 on/off using scenes since they don't have keyboard control but you could use scenes to 'mute' those parts.

Also, to minimize latency you should use the shortest 'loop back' cable possible.

On the road so can't test right now. You still have the ESP and DAW options. Kier Darby has a video demoing the DAW option on a classic Montage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvWQ4t15OqI&t=2s

Post back and let us know how your tests work out.

MIDI latency on the wire isn't really a thing.  Just don't violate MIDI spec (50 ft) and ideally keep it at half that under all circumstances (not just this loop back thing) to give yourself headroom for devices that may be more sensitive to the signal degradation that occurs from the RC components associated with long lengths.

But just about any cable you have lying around that claims MIDI compliance is going to work fine.

Shorter cable length is better. That has been the recommendation for decades and is the one area where plain common sense is borne out by the physics.

The longer the cable the more resistance, capacitance and induction all of which can cause distortion. MIDI sends digital, not audio, so the loss of a single bit in ANY of the message bytes can cause total corruption of the meaning of the byte. 

An example is a NOTE ON message that includes one byte for the note value and one byte for the velocity value. If you lose one bit of the velocity value a velocity of 127 might be interpreted as 64 and may not be very noticeable.

But if you lose one bit of the note value it can change midi note 60 to midi note 28 and that can be very noticeable. 

Digital signals, such as midi and usb, can suffer the same degradation and transmission problems that audio cables face.

We agree that if the only consideration is the latency associated with travel speed (near light speed) and travel distance (cable length) then that specific latency issue isn't an issue.

The key concept to understand is that electron flow through a cable, or power line, is NOT like water flowing through a pipe. Electrons don't flow from one end of a cable to the other and somehow get 'consumed'. Electrons don't flow from the electrical outlet on the wall through the power cable and into the synth. 

It is more like the information flow illustrated by that classroom example of 'telephone' where the teacher whispers to the student in the front row and then that student turns around and whispers the message to the student behind them and so on. Then the student in the last row stands up and tells everyone what they heard.

What the last student says is usually different from what the teacher whispered to the first student because each student usually says it a little differently.

The more students involved in the communication 'chain' the more likely there will be corruption of the message received at the other end.

Same with midi/audio cables. For any quality cable shorter is better.