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Trouble with Simple Navigation on the M8x

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Phil
 Phil
Posts: 68
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

I just recently acquired a Montage M8x and have found some issues with simple navigation.  Perhaps you can help me?

1. Live set page navigation.  Do I really have to press the Page button 16 times to get to page 16?  Are there no 1-button shortcuts like on the Montage8?

2. Elements.  I am used to seeing a line of 8 elements on the bottom of each element page.  Not only is that easy navigation missing, but to keep having to select from a pull down menu to change elements seems like an awkward extra step. Doing a page jump to the other screen doesn't seem to be helpful either.  Am I missing something?

3. Coordination between screens.  If I want to make a change on the Attack Amplitude page and I jump to the left screen, when I change the Attack there, the corresponding change DOES NOT happen on the main screen, even though it's the SAME element.  On all the demos I saw, making a change on one screen would be shown to equally change on the other screen. This was supposed to be simple, but I am very confused!  Can anyone explain?

4. Muting or soloing elements. I see nowhere where I can do this.  Is that feature simply gone, or am I looking in the wrong place?  I know that the Home Page View Mode can show me which elements are on or off, but that would be extra difficult to solo one element by turning all the others off. Not only that, but I would have to keep going back and forth from element page to home page just to do that simple function.

When approaching the M8x for the first time, have any of you been lost as I am just bumbling around trying do simple things?

Thanks for any help!

Phil

 
Posted : 13/06/2024 9:09 pm
Phil
 Phil
Posts: 68
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Update:

1. Live set page navigation.  Do I really have to press the Page button 16 times to get to page 16?  Are there no 1-button shortcuts like on the Montage8?

2. ANSWERED

3. ANSWERED

4. Muting or soloing elements. I see nowhere where I can do this.  Is that feature simply gone, or am I looking in the wrong place?  I know that the Home Page View Mode can show me which elements are on or off, but that would be extra difficult to solo one element by turning all the others off. Not only that, but I would have to keep going back and forth from element page to home page just to do that simple function.

Thanks for any help!

Phil

 
Posted : 14/06/2024 8:50 pm
Jason
Posts: 8037
Illustrious Member
 

I'm staying out of this one because typically I'd fumble around my own gear to see how it's done then post.  I could look up what I could find in manuals but I don't think that's nearly as helpful as experience.

 

I can say that the introduction of 128 elements per Part complicated the user interface and Montage M seems to be evolving in terms of how to tackle this.  Evidenced by some of the advance information of the coming Montage M OS V2.0 release.

 

On Live Set with the Montage Classic I never use direct access to pages even if it's available -- so I can't think off the cuff how this worked before.  I would just use the page up/down buttons to scroll through one at a time.  I suppose because I only have 4 pages of Live Set with the 4th page rarely used.  So called "alternate" tunes.   Looking this up, I see that Montage had a left side grid of 4x4 for Live Set slots and the right side grid of 4x4 was for random access to page numbers.  This seems like the "loss" of buttons would call for a [SHIFT] feature where shift+the grid would handle page number and non shifted would handle slot number.  The Montage M's SHIFT documentation doesn't show this exists, however.  If there's no other way (wait for Blake or others with experience) then I'd put a request up on Ideascale to [SHIFT] for random page # in [LIVE SET] using the grid of buttons on the right hand side.  The location of the [SHIFT] key in this area should make this a one-handed operation for page.

 

 

 
Posted : 14/06/2024 10:35 pm
 Toby
Posts: 7
Active Member
 

1. Live set page navigation. Do I really have to press the Page button 16 times to get to page 16? Are there no 1-button shortcuts like on the Montage8?

That is the ONLY method I am aware of. I just tried other possible options, including using 'shift' but none of them do the job.

I haven't found an IdeaScale suggestion for this but it would be a good one and should be easy to implement.

2. Elements. I am used to seeing a line of 8 elements on the bottom of each element page. Not only is that easy navigation missing, but to keep having to select from a pull down menu to change elements seems like an awkward extra step. Doing a page jump to the other screen doesn't seem to be helpful either. Am I missing something?

I see you said 'solved' but, for others what you describe IS the current behaviour. You can only access extended elements one at a time for editing. The only exception I have found is when doing control assignments for an element parameter there will be an 'Element Sw' parameter on the Mod Control -> Control Assign screen that lets you select any set of 8 elements and use the 8 on/off switches to enable/disable control of the parameter being assigned for each of those 8.

In the 2.0 update video (see Jason's thread about that) Blake mentioned that the new OS release scheduled for later this month includes functionality to access any set of 8 elements in the same manner.

3. Coordination between screens. If I want to make a change on the Attack Amplitude page and I jump to the left screen, when I change the Attack there, the corresponding change DOES NOT happen on the main screen, even though it's the SAME element. On all the demos I saw, making a change on one screen would be shown to equally change on the other screen. This was supposed to be simple, but I am very confused! Can anyone explain?

The left screen doesn't allow for element level editing. The envelopes you see there are at the part or performance level.

4. Muting or soloing elements. I see nowhere where I can do this. Is that feature simply gone, or am I looking in the wrong place?

That functionality is NOT in the initial release. We are hoping that added functionality Blake mentioned in his 2.0 update video (see my earlier comment) will include mute/solo capability but we won't know until we see the new update.

I did find an IdeaScale suggestion for that so you may want to review it.

I know that the Home Page View Mode can show me which elements are on or off, but that would be extra difficult to solo one element by turning all the others off. Not only that, but I would have to keep going back and forth from element page to home page just to do that simple function.

Correctamundo! Very tedious to work one at a time especially using a drop-down menu that often covers the part of the screen that has the data you want to look at.

When approaching the M8x for the first time, have any of you been lost as I am just bumbling around trying do simple things?

Yes - me and everyone else I know. There are several reasons for that:

1. It has a fairly steep learning curve. It is a very complex instrument with many, often nested, levels of functionality

2. People often assume the presets are 'stage ready' and can be used as-is. They are really meant to showcase the instrument and show what it is possible to do. That is often NOT what you want it to do for a specific use

3. There are often several ways to do the same, or similar things. For example, 'volume' and/or 'level' can be set at the element/operator level, the part level and the performance level. In addition you can create control assignments that have volume/level as a destination for one, or more, controllers.

4. Those familiar with other instruments may, wrongly, assume that the Montage does things the same way because it uses the same terminology they may already be familiar with from another instrument - particularly instruments from other manufacturers.

Two suggestions - check the 'Learn' section on the main YamahaSynth home page. It contains links to articles and videos about the product and how to use it.

For the original Montage there is also an extensive set of articles written by experts that take you step-by-step through all of the most commonly used features.

https://yamahasynth.com/learn/montage-series-synthesizers/video-series-mastering-montage/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Posted : 15/06/2024 12:06 am
 Toby
Posts: 115
Estimable Member
 

1. Live set page navigation.  Do I really have to press the Page button 16 times to get to page 16?  Are there no 1-button shortcuts like on the Montage8?

I'm not aware of any shortcuts or buttons including using the 'shift' button. You might search IdeaScale to see if it has already been suggested to add a button, pop-up menu or shortcut of some kind and, if not, submit a suggestion.

2. Elements.  I am used to seeing a line of 8 elements on the bottom of each element page.  Not only is that easy navigation missing, but to keep having to select from a pull down menu to change elements seems like an awkward extra step. Doing a page jump to the other screen doesn't seem to be helpful either.  Am I missing something?

Unfortunately they did not add functionality as yet to provide easy access to extended elements with one exception: when making a control assignment to an element parameter there is an 'Element Sw' drop-down selection on the Mod Control -> Control Assign screen that lets you select elements in groups of 8. Once selected you can enable On/Off for each of the 8 elements to determine if they participate in the control assignment.

In the Tech Talk video link Jason provided Blake mentions that the upcoming, end of month, release of OS 2.0 will include functionality for accessing extended elements but there was no discussion in the video of just what that involved.

Hopefully it will include the ability to mute and solo extended elements.

3. Coordination between screens.  If I want to make a change on the Attack Amplitude page and I jump to the left screen, when I change the Attack there, the corresponding change DOES NOT happen on the main screen, even though it's the SAME element.  On all the demos I saw, making a change on one screen would be shown to equally change on the other screen. This was supposed to be simple, but I am very confused!  Can anyone explain?

There is NO element editing capability on the sub-screen. That 'Attack Amplitude' info you see using the sub-screen 'Amplitude' button and 'AEG' tab is part level and is the same info seen on the main screens 'Filter/Amp -> Amp EG' screen when editing a part common area.

It isn't known if the new extended element functionality Blake hinted at in the video will include actual editing ability or only the ability to locate and select elements. One possibility is that the sub-display might let you locate extended elements in groups of 8 and then mute or solo them in addition to the current ability to turn elements 1-8 on or off.

4. Muting or soloing elements. I see nowhere where I can do this.  Is that feature simply gone, or am I looking in the wrong place?  I know that the Home Page View Mode can show me which elements are on or off, but that would be extra difficult to solo one element by turning all the others off. Not only that, but I would have to keep going back and forth from element page to home page just to do that simple function.

That is not possible in the current release but, as mentioned above, MIGHT BE in the upcoming OS 2.0 update to be released later this month.

When approaching the M8x for the first time, have any of you been lost as I am just bumbling around trying do simple things?

Yes - me and everyone I know. There are several reasons

1. The instrument has fairly complex functionality

2. It is a synth and not a stage piano - meaning the presets are more designed to  show off what is possible rather than provide a library of 'use them as they are' presets. Many of the presets make use of advanced features for demo purposes - you may, or may not, want those features in YOUR version of the preset

3. The instrument doesn't always do things the same way as other instruments do. So your experience on another instrument (especially from another manufacturer) may, and often is, implemented differently on the M models.

Here are a couple of common suggestions, especially for new users:

1. Review some of the many articles and videos on both the new M models and the original Montage. 

https://yamahasynth.com/learn/montage-series-synthesizers/mastering-montage-article-series/

Although those are written for the original Montage they mostly apply to the M models also. Of course they will NOT include anything about the new functionality the M models provide

The 'learn' section of the main page has the most recent set of videos and articles.

2. Don't use presets 'as is' unless you are CERTAIN they contain only the functionality you need. Instead: 

   A. load a preset to use as a starting point

   B. thoroughly examine EVERY bit of functionality inclucing: control assignments, motion sequences, arpeggios

   C. remove/disable any functionality you do not want to be active

   D. save the CLEANSED version as a user performance to use as a starting point for your future user performances.

   E. make sure you save your work as a backup file periodically so you don't lose work if you have to reset things.

You will have far fewer problems if you use a workflow similar to the above.

3. If you need help with something specific try to provide enough info so that someone can try to reproduce your exact problem. Mention the name of the preset if you are using one.

 

 

 

 
Posted : 16/06/2024 10:06 pm
Phil
 Phil
Posts: 68
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Thank you, Toby and Jason for your help!   Your thoughtful posts were helpful and encouraging.  At least I am not alone in my frustrations.

 

-Phil

 
Posted : 18/06/2024 8:24 pm
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