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  1. Giovanni
  2. Montage
  3. Saturday, 09 September 2017
Hi,
today I have tried the American Grand Piano Library on the Monty of my friend.
I liked the piano sound, very much! I would buy it, but I was especially annoyed by a background noise when the notes were backed up.
Have you also found it?
Thank you.
Responses (23)
Jason Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
"Backed up"? Can you rephrase this? Do you mean noise when you lift the key - possibly some noise meant to reproduce the "thud" of the keys when you lift? Or do you mean something else?

I do not have the set - so I'm shooting in the dark here. If I, above, described what you don't like -- I'm sure you can save off of user version of the piano sound and either delete that waveform (element) altogether or there is probably an assignable knob to turn that down/off - which can (assuming the control is there) also be saved in a user copy of the performance(s).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 1
Giovanni Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi, thank's for your reply!
The noise is a real rust. It's is generated when I playing the piano, after a few seconds, alwais.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 2
Jason Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Still too broadly defined to be of much help here. Try listening to the piano on headphones to see if the "rust" is still there through phones. This would hopefully eliminate your/your friend's speakers/sound reinforcement as a possible contributor to the unwanted "noise".
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 3
Ron Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Giovanni the Amercan Grand piano sound set is realy one of the best sounding piano libraries, i own all 10 other piano sets for The motif xs - xf series and theye all also work fine. I MUST SAY THE GRAND AMERCAN PIANO SET IS REALY THE BEST IN MY EARS , AND I DO NOT HEAR ANY unwanted "noise". TRY TO CHNGE WITH THE EFFECT KNOBS TO PERSONALISE the sounds you prefer. !!!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 4
Giovanni Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hello everyone! Thanks for your help. Today we have made new tests. We have tried listening from the headphones. The noise is on the every sound of the grand piano library. Nothing changes. Unfortunately, turning the knobs will only change the effects. The Monty firmware is updated to 1.60 version. The headphones are Beyerdinamic DT770Pro.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 5
Jason Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I'm not sure if that library has damper resonance - which is an effect - so you can turn this off. As an experiment - press the "FX" icon in the upper-right of your touchscreen - then turn OFF all 3 effects levels. This will produce a "dry" sound meant only for experimentation. See if the background noise goes away.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 6
Giovanni Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
No way. For example, I insert a .wav recording using the Monty USB direct audio recorder.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B25-Lgi57Zeybk1xd3pzazFsNTQ/view?usp=sharing
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 7
Jason Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Not sure what I'm listening for. Maybe someone else can comment on what they find objectionable with the clip.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 8
Giovanni Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Ok. Thank you, I hope comes someone ...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 9
Giovanni Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
It's nice to know someone out there understands this Piano Library...... These are the responses received from developers (no comment..):

from This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Hi XXXX,

Thank you for contacting Yamaha MusicSoft.

Unfortunately we're not sure about this, we'd suggest reaching out to the developer of the pack to see if they can answer this question. You can contact them through this website - http://www.synthogy.com

Kind Regards,
Thxxx

______


from This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

xxxxxx,

We have no reports of any problems with the original samples. The samples in Montage were encoded using Yamaha's proprietary encoding. Only they can tell you if the samples are being played back correctly in Montage.

Synthogy Support


Dear xxxxx,

You'll have to ask Yamaha Tech Support about this issue.

Regards,

Synthogy Support


_______________
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 10
Jason Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Even with your sample (recording) - I don't hear anything that stands out as objectionable. Is there a MM:SS (minute, second) marker on the recording where you can point out the worst example of what you're hearing with some description of exactly what is objectionable in that second of the recording?

I just haven't seen an isolated example that I can follow as having some problem. Granted - I'm not listening to this in the most hi-fi manner so there is some "attenuation" going on on my side. But I was hoping this kind of listening environment would bring out the worst offender so I could put my finger on what's bad -- this was not the case.

I certainly do not hear anything like an encoding error, digital distortion, or something grossly "wrong". There were no strange transients. No bursts of volume. No hum. "Rust" and "backed up" were difficult to translate into anything I could listen for.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 11
Giovanni Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
if you listen it in your headphones, you can hear it from the first few seconds (noise swish ... sssssssssssssss).
Thanks anyway. I will continue to play my VST and my Nord Stage e Nord Electro for acoustic pianos.
See you later!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 12
Manuel Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Giovanni wrote:

if you listen it in your headphones, you can hear it from the first few seconds (noise swish ... sssssssssssssss).


I can hear it only when I have the phones volume to the maximum.
At a normal level isn't audible in my Audio Technica ATH-M50X.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 13
Jason Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
If this is hiss at high volume - you may be able to change the behavior by setting the USB gain (+6dB, +12dB) for USB 1-30.

Depending on the source - it may make things better or worse (which is why I say "change" vs. "fix";).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 14
Owl Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Giovanni,
Though I still consider the American Grand to be the finest Steinway sample library for the Montage, I have to confirm that I can hear the hiss that you are talking about in element 1. This is the AG PPP element so no surprise that the gain must have had to be pretty high to record the nuances of this keystrike. I had to turn my headphones all the way up, and I must admit I hadn't tried that before, because I'm trying to preserve what's left of my hearing. One thing that you can try is to use equalization to attenuate this, such as the VCM EQ 501 under MISC effect. I think the hiss is in the 3.75 kHz range. You can try the Dance SD/BD preset, then turn all the other equalization to zero, and set the 3.75 kHz to -1.5 dB or less. I hope that helps!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 15
Marko Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hello everyone, I come from Slovenia (EU) and I am new to this forum (sorry for my english :) ). I bought my Montage 8 back in the first months of the relise last year.

I agree with Giovanni.

I like pianos, and the CFX is stelar, the Bosendorfer is fabulous. But... when Yamaha released the AG piano (in february) I was excited to try it but the noise was there... Giovanni is right. There is too much noise in the background. I also contacted the Yamaha support. My letter:
Subject: American Grand
Description: Hello,
I have just instaled the American Grand on my MONTAGE, but I have to say that there is too much noise in the performances (if compared with CFX and others). The basic sound is OK, but in the background, if and only when I play softly, there is always to much noise (I have HS 7 and HS 8S monitors). If that is normal, I will live with it, but I think that this is not ok. Could you check if others have the same issue?
Thank you.

They didn't give me any technical explanation but just refund my purchase.
I use my Yamaha 2x HS7 + HS8 sub + yamaha mg10xu and the Beyerdynamic dt 1990 pro headphones (which are realy great btw). I tried the same technic with the CFX, Bosendorfer, AG, Pop Upright and some other pianos... and all except the AG were noiseless. I have to say that I like the basic sound of the AG a lot, but the noise is just there (for example, pressing the sustein pedal and playing high notes on - particulary the AG Rock... not good), while when listening to it on MusicSoft where the sound is clear - like the CFX or the Bösendorfer on Montage.
As I said, the basic sound is great, but the noise is just annoying if you play just the piano very softly and gentile. So I basically dont use it, becouse it is just wasted 600 MB of memory. I wish Yamaha would take a detailed look on it, or relise some other new great pianos for Montage.

Best regards,
Marko
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 16
Bad Mister Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yamaha
The American Grand is not a Yamaha product, in that the soundset is from another company, Synthogy. Please understand, any one, even you, could make, package and release software (Sample sets) for the Yamaha MONTAGE. Many companies got started making sounds for the DX7 many years ago. It's sort of like not all software that runs on your computer is necessarily from Apple or Microsoft.

I've only heard raves reviews from those who are familiar with this same data as "Ivory II" - we at Yamaha are proud to have this stellar piano sample set available for the MOXF, Motif XF and MONTAGE.

The company that makes the "American Grand" is http://www.Synthogy.com - they are a well known and a very experienced maker of sample Libraries.

You may have purchased it from the Yamaha online store, but if you want to alert the manufacturer directly, please contact them through the website link above. And since not all users have this complaint, it may be something that they can easily rectify. I'm certain that they would appreciate hearing from you directly.

for example, pressing the sustein pedal and playing high notes on - particulary the AG Rock... not good)
Pressing the notes, specifically from G#5 and above, where the Acoustic Piano has no felt dampers, you'll notice the Damper Resonance Effect (it's an Insert Effect) is often used to create the resonances inside the piano box, its function is programmed to the Sustain pedal.

Also the amount of Effect is programmable. I'm wondering if what you are describing as unwanted noise, is something purposely added by the programmer. Especially since you say Sustain pedal and high (probably undampered) notes - the fact that this Effect is directly controlled by the Sustain pedal - is NOT a coincidence in my humble opinion. Did you try bypassing the effects?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 17
Jason Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
... unless things have changed:

I suggested:
I'm not sure if that library has damper resonance - which is an effect - so you can turn this off. As an experiment - press the "FX" icon in the upper-right of your touchscreen - then turn OFF all 3 effects levels. This will produce a "dry" sound meant only for experimentation. See if the background noise goes away.


And got the virtual hand.
No way.


At least now there's a better description of the issue: high noise floor at low volumes. That's something that makes sense and can be evaluated easily both absolutely and relatively (to other libraries and internal samples). Taking it up with Synthogy is the best route. I know this route was taken - but I would not pose a question to Synthogy - I'd make the statement that you believe the sample set falls short with respect to the low velocity samples having too high of a noise floor unlike the competing sound libraries.

A spectrum analyzer should uncover how the set fares in an objective manner. Combined with subjective listening.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 18
Marko Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
1. Synthogy's response to Giovanni:
/../ The samples in Montage were encoded using Yamaha's proprietary encoding. Only they can tell you if the samples are being played back correctly in Montage.

You'll have to ask Yamaha Tech Support about this issue.

As I understand, the Montage AG is a new implementation of old samples to the Montage technology, otherwise why would Yamaha release the AG for Montage only in February 2017? Maybe the Motif AG is better implemented? I will not go into that. I don't have the Motif AG.

2. As I wrote
for example, pressing the sustein pedal and playing high notes on - particulary the AG Rock... not good

and
if you play just the piano very softly and gentile.

, I was suggesting to do the same thing. When I was reffering to "high notes", I did it because at those hights (frequencies) the noise is more noticable (C6 up), but the noise appears on all notes, when the keys are played (softly). And with the sustain pedal, the noise become even more noticable, becouse it is accumulating (for example try to press gently the same notes multiple times with the sustain pedal pressed). And I don't confuse the "noise" with the "Damper Resonance Efect" - all pianos are realy nice sounding with that effect and I like to play pianos with the sustain pedal pressed. This is one of the reasons why the "noise" is so noticable to me.

3. I disabled all FX on Montage, but the noise remains.

4. I watched on screen (PERFORMANCE CONTROL) which elements were triggered when playing and my thoughts are that the 1st element is not implemented as it should be.

And btw, I noticed the noise the first 10 seconds of playing, when I installed it. When it comes to sounds like piano I am very critical, specialy if compared to other pianos on Montage with the same settings. If the CFX is to me cristal clear, the AG is just too noisy.
Those are my thoughts.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 19
Jason Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
As I understand, the Montage AG is a new implementation of old samples to the Montage technology, otherwise why would Yamaha release the AG for Montage only in February 2017? Maybe the Motif AG is better implemented? I will not go into that. I don't have the Motif AG.


Montage has scenes, motion control, etc. Many items which are not related to the sampling. This is a primary difference in sample library releases which target Montage vs. Motif XF. Yamaha can chime in here - but I believe the underlying sample playback algorithms and core(s) that play these back are the "same". "Core(s)" meaning copied blocks of ASIC definition that remain unchanged from chip to chip (chip inside Motif vs chip inside Montage).

There's one corner case here - to my knowledge, Montage still has problems with certain encodings from the XF. Something seemingly first identified with the incompatibility with the "Inspiration In A Flash" set and certain voices (XF) not playing after going through the conversion process. There are not a lot of details here if the problem is with the conversion, the sample playback engine, both, or neither (something else).

That said - I think that pointing towards sample playback is barking up the wrong tree. That's just a gut opinion (not a hard fact). I would push back against this line from Synthogy because it is unlikely that the sample playback engine is injecting noise to this sample set while others have not seen this as an issue. Maybe Synthogy got unlucky and picked an encoding scheme that no other library picked (AND that unique encoding method has problems) -- I just see that as unlikely. Often you have to stick to your guns when citing an issue in order to be sure the manufacturer/coder/producer/... does real testing and owns up to the possibility that they can be fallible.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. Montage
  3. # 20
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