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F2 & F3 Organs

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 Jim
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Curious about the thinking behind the set-up for these in the YC. Presuming the F2 is supposed to emulate a vintage Vox Continental and F3 a Farfisa Combo.

The original Vox Continental upper manual had seven drawbars: 16', 8', 4', II which is two harmonic tones in one...(a mid-fifth and high-third), and III which also has two harmonic tones in one (a 2' and a high-fifth). The last two drawbars activate the other five..one with a softer sine wave and the second with a brighter tone. The YC61 F2 is set up using all nine drawbars with single tones: 16' soft, 8' soft, 4' soft' 4' bright, mid 5th harmonic, high 3rd harmonic, 2' soft and, strangely a 9th harmonic. I am migrating to the YC from a certain red keyboard that much more closely matches the Vox set-up adding a 2' drawbar and drawbar IV which is another harmonic drawbar on the lower manual. The last two drawbars are, like the Vox, used to activate softer and brighter tones, respectively, for the other drawbars.

The Farfisa Combo used rockers, not drawbars. There were nine: two 16', four 8', two 4' and one 2 2/3' in that order . Instead, the YC61 F3 has the first drawbar as an 8', then the two 16', then only one other 8', four 4'...and no 2 2/3' (only eight of the drawbars are used). The YC drawbars are set up as standard variable volume as opposed to on/off like the rockers. Again, the red-colored keyboard copies the proper Combo order and converts the drawbars by making them simply on/off, no in between.

Other than that, the issue of vibrato implementation for both organs has previously been mentioned.

Not sure of the logic of this...but just wanted to point out the differences to those it might matter to. I'm not a huge user of transistor organs...a couple of Elvis Costello and Talking Heads covers where no one in the audience would know the difference and if I need super accuracy I can use my Arturia V Collection emulations. Maybe this was driven by license/trademark issues? Or maybe there are some limitations in the FM engine that was used to create these on the YC? Or perhaps the engineers just thought this would be a simpler configuration for users.

 
Posted : 04/06/2020 1:26 pm
david
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If I had to guess, Yamaha isn't necessarily trying to match 1 to 1 the real world instrument since they don't literally name the organ. Like you mentioned it's FM driven so it probably more of a variation on the real world instrument or a new instrument altogether but with similarities.They can probably improve on these as they update the OS. Since the selection knob turns continuously and the readout is digital, I'm betting new organs could be forthcoming as well.

The modulation lever adds vibrato when set to modulation within the menu function. You can also control it using the foot pedal assignment setting that to modulation.

 
Posted : 04/06/2020 3:40 pm
 Jim
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The YC manual provides little insight into this. I just looked at the VR 09/730 manual and I see that has one "Transistor Organ" emulation that is clearly a Vox. The layout is not identical, but close...and the manual at least describes the drawbar configuration for it. And as I said above the Nord E4 is almost 100% accurate...that's where at least a couple the competitive clonewheels are on this.

I am really mystified though by the order of the F3 drawbars with an 8' on the far left, then two 16's then another 8'. Not sure how that makes sense. At the very least, I think Yamaha should delineate the F2/F3 drawbar layouts in any supplemental manual that comes out with an OS update. Jim J

 
Posted : 04/06/2020 5:02 pm
david
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So I'm wondering not knowing much about an organ but on the board is printed 16', 5 1/3", 8', 4', 2 2/3', 2', 1 3/5', 1 1/3' & 1' which are pipe lengths and thus the related whistle frequency? The draw bar is the volume & on/off of each pipe, correct, because that's all that happens when I manipulate one. I assume this is standard for a Hammond organ. Once you switch to the FM options, the same thing is happening including pitch and all. Only the tones have a variation in them between the H & F. Too bad I can't run one of each at once layered, which would be really cool. When it's mentioned about order of drawbars I'm confused because as I mentioned those are preset/pre-labeled on the YC and don't change as if they had a digital indicator on top. If the pipe configuration can't change then what are we talking about here?

 
Posted : 04/06/2020 8:37 pm
 Jim
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The numbers printed on the YC correspond to the drawbars on a Hammond B3 organ. The numbers with fractions are non-octave harmonics of the fundamental...and yes, the origin of the nomenclature is from the lengths of pipes on a pipe organ...although the Hammond B3 uses tonewheels to generate sound, not pipes....hence the term "clonewheels" for the keyboards that digitally emulate the tonewheels. The frequency pattern printed on the YC does not correspond with the frequencies that were assigned to each drawbar for the F2 or F3 settings. You may want go to the Nord website and look at the organ section close-up for either and Electro 6 or a Stage 3. You will see there are three different printed items for each drawbar: one is for the Hammond, one for the Vox and one for the Farfisa.

I would venture to say that the YC is a focused clonewheel in that the Hammond emulation is front and center...and the underlying Hammond tones are very impressive IMO...and there is much greater flexibility to tinker with the Hammond tones than Nord has. The Leslie emulation...well I've expressed my thoughts on that already elsewhere... Little doubt though that Nord, to this point, has a major leg up on the Vox and Farfisa emulations...but let's see what happens. When I read the manual before buying this, I expected to see Vox and Farfisa emulations that were comparable to the Nord...they are not. I'm hoping though that with some prompting Yamaha can put that FM engine to better use and improve these substantially. Jim J

 
Posted : 04/06/2020 10:39 pm
 Jim
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Just a quick correction on my OP. The F2 setting only uses the first eight drawbars...my statement of what each does is, I believe, correct.

 
Posted : 04/06/2020 10:49 pm
david
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So you've referred to only the F2/F3 organs. What does the F1 emulate?

The manual says the F1 is simple sine waves. F2 is a famous British transistor combo organ & F3 a famous Italian transistor combo organ.

It does leave that open for interpretation and does not claim it to be a VOX or Farfisa else it would have stated it. It doesn't claim Hammond either but uses an "H" and calls it a standard vintage organ.

To be able to tweak the FM characteristics or to at least select some pre-designed algorithms like they did with the EG/Filter curves would be desirable. I wonder if detailed editor software will come available as that would be a treat so each YC can be user customizable.

The design philosophy for me with an organ is that I wouldn't care if it mimicked a real world organ or not because I'm only interested in an all new sound. In fact, I'm sound creating all new organs using the layering capability inside the YC61. For someone intending to play an existing tune using an exact replica of the sound then I can see how it would matter to a certain extent.

 
Posted : 05/06/2020 1:33 am
 Jim
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David...completely accept that this is not important to you but I know a lot of people will be migrating over from older model Nord Electros like I did and they have had a certain experience and expectation with the transistor organ implementation that they will likely carry over to the YC. I'm just giving this subset of people a heads-up that it's not the same and that the manual does not clearly state how the F2 and F3 organs are arranged on the YC. The F1 was designed to be a "new organ"...a Hammond sound without all the artifacts and harmonic distortions. If you watch some of the YC videos put out since the announcement you will see this discussed in a few of them. Jim J

 
Posted : 05/06/2020 12:16 pm
david
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I'm wondering since it's an FM simulation and not circuit modeling that they'll just need more time to perfect the match. FM programming can get extremely tedious and it's easier to mess up the sound rather than to improve it. I do hope they add many more variations on these organs and then we can pick the ones we like best.

 
Posted : 05/06/2020 5:38 pm
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The manual says the F1 is simple sine waves. F2 is a famous British transistor combo organ & F3 a famous Italian transistor combo organ.

It does leave that open for interpretation and does not claim it to be a VOX or Farfisa else it would have stated it.

It is likely that they don't state it to eliminate any legal exposure that could arise from marketing their product with those brand names which are someone else's trademarks.

 
Posted : 22/08/2020 6:08 pm
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