Synth Forum

Notifications
Clear all

Montage/ ModX effects : PHASER

9 Posts
5 Users
0 Likes
956 Views
 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Hello,

I have a question about the Phaser effects on Montage/ModX :

What the "Mode" 1,2,3 parameter corresponds to ?

Thanks a lot

 
Posted : 26/08/2021 8:41 am
Dragos
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

While the list of the Parameters is to be found in the Data List PDF, the explanations for them is in the Synthesizer Parameter Manual PDF.
Which says,(pg. 76):
[code type=markup]
For VCM Phaser Mono and VCM Phaser Stereo, this parameter
determines the phaser type, or more specifically, the factor for forming the
phaser effect.
[/code]

 
Posted : 26/08/2021 10:50 am
 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Thank you, I know that. But what I would want to know is some precisions about these 3 settings. For example, I know that one of them should be more specific for a Electro Harmonix Small Stone pedal simulation. But there is no detail about that in manuals.

 
Posted : 26/08/2021 11:37 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

Disclaimer
The person in the picture on the cover of Nirvana’s 1991 album “Nevermind”… you know, the baby underwater chasing the dollar bill on a fishing hook… is suing (not that they are now actually chasing that dollar….) but I mention that as a humorous way to introduce the topic of “disclaimers” — when technology like the Yamaha’s VCM (Virtual Circuitry Modeling) are attempting to recreate classic effect processors of the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, using today’s cutting edge number crunching technology. Even though these are new digital processes that are doing the deed, the legal questions are always looming.

This is also why, you often see things like “Rd” and “Wr” when Rhodes and Wurlitzer are the obvious items being recreated…

Anyway that is why you don’t see the exact name of the item being modeled… it’s also why Performances that are perfect for playing Toto’s “Africa” winds up being named “Dark Continent”. “Girl from Ipanema” becomes “Bossa on the Beach” etc., etc.

It’s part courtesy, part respect, part security, part ‘those who should get it, usually get it’!
If you know that Africa used to be called the “dark continent”, and you are old enough to make the connection to the Toto classic, you’ll smile and ‘get it’. But what you will not be able to do, however, is play anything else with that Performance. If you don’t get it, your approach to that Performance is fresh, uncluttered, and you likely will play something entirely different with it.

When you do the pro/con analysis - what you gain from providing the information directly in the product versus (that last point) wouldn’t those who know/remember what the “Small Stone” sounded like, know how to use what’s on offer to recreate the sound they want?
That’s what the suits and ties in the corporate world worry about…

Anyway, without actually naming the devices, there are bread crumbs…. For the terminally curious… (I was one of those, myself).

That’s the thing about ‘classic’ stuff… but let’s talk Phase Shifters (Phasers).
The Phase Shifter: By cyclically varying the frequencies whose phase is shifted, this effect creates a sense of space and movement. A phase shift circuit is used to delay the phase of specific frequencies.

The VCM Phaser Mono — most of the early classic phase shifters were mono, as the initial target market for stomp boxes was almost exclusively guitarist. If you assign this particular Effect and go through the Factory Effect Presets, you can do the detective work to figure it out.
When you assign this as an Insertion Effect (this allows you to assign real-time control) within the Effect edit parameters find the Presets for this effect type in the upper right corner.

MONTAGE/MODX Presets: There are quite a few Phaser Presets for the VCM Phaser Mono - if you know that an MXR Phase 90 and Phase 100 were orange - the Presets named “Orange 90” and “Orange 100” not hard to guess.

Early on, when Yamaha initially started with the VCM ‘stomp box’ series, I broke out several of the classic boxes and did my own comparisons. The concept of VCM was a bold claim…
“VCM (Virtual Circuitry Modeling) technology actually models the characteristics of analog circuitry - right down to the last resistor and capacitor. VCM technology goes well beyond simply analyzing and modeling electronic components and emulating the sound of old equipment. It's capable of capturing subtleties that simple digital simulations cannot even approach, while actually creating ideal examples of sought-after vintage gear.”

Rupert Neve agreed, as it is the technology he selected to use in creating several of his digital recreations (I got to talk with him about this at an award event in his honor).

Aside from the vastly different ‘noise floor’(which, frankly I did not mind) - in the synth it’s much quieter - the characteristics of each processor was uncannily close to the reality and spirit of the vintage processors. What you’ll discover, the way the Phasers are implemented it’s a combination of settings that will be used to recreate the “classic” device. Often you’ll see more parameter options than on some of the original gear — this is because the goal is not just to create an exact copy, but to offer possibilities beyond the original.

Parameters: Speed, Manual, Depth, Feedback, Stage, Mode, Color

“The Electro-Harmonix Small Stone Phase Shifter is a 4-stage phase shifter pedal first made in 1974 by David Cockerell with the legendary operational transconductance amplifiers (OTA). Along with a Rate knob, the Color switch is used to engage an additional stage of feedback for a more pronounced phase shifting effect.”

I looked this bit up on the Internet… Yamaha went to the Library of Congress and got the original schematics, and recreated the behavior of the components, resistors, capacitors, etc., and reconstructed the target processor.

Stage: Number of stages in the phase shift circuitry. Raising this value will produce a more complex sense of modulation. (Important to know here, more is not always the point, but if you wanted to create a (fictitious) Small Stone w/16 stages, you can, but if you know and wish to recreate the “Small Stone” phase shifter, you’ll set it so Stage = 4. Stages are all-pass filters responsible for altering the phase of the signal — a 4-stage phaser will have 2 notches (frequency dips). A 6-stage will have 3 notches; an 8-stage will have 4 notches, and so on.

Color (VCM Phaser Mono): The Color parameter is not available in the following conditions: When Mode is set to 1 and Stage is set to 4, 6, 8, 12 or 16; or when Mode is set to 2 and Stage is set to 4 or 10. (This is from the Data List booklet)

The Electro-Harmonix Small Stone had a “Color” switch, a Bypass and Rate knob.
It was 4-Stage… check the Presets that are 4 Stage like “Electric Guitar 1”

Phase Shifters were soon used on keyboards, and stereo phase shifters followed shortly. In the VCM Phaser Stereo
Color: The Color parameter is not available in the following conditions: When Mode is set to 1 and Stage is set to 4, 6, or 8; or when Mode is set to 2 and Stage is set to 4 or 10. (This is from the Data List booklet).

Check the names of the factory Presets and observe the settings (particularly Stage, Color which give the Phase Shifter its character).

In the VCM Phaser Stereo - the Presets are more about the instrument application.

Final chord: At the end of the day, experiment with the sound and get something you like; use the Presets as a general guide - the programmer was working to recreate a “classic” usage of the modeled processor - then tweak it until you like it!

I had a discussion about this the other day with a MONTAGEr - the presets whether the Performances or the Effect processor presets, are done by some of the best programmer’s on the planet… and while it may feed our own egos to say “the presets suck!” I’ve learned to approach things entirely differently… if I don’t think a sound works, I realize it’s because it is not what I’m looking for at this moment. It might, in fact, be fine in another context.

When trying out sounds and effect presets, I try to figure out what the programmer was going after. I don’t need to be better than they are, I try to approach it from the standpoint, of what can I learn about this thing.

When it comes processors always remember if it works right out of the gate, it more serendipity (by accident) than anything else. Someone not listening to the music you are applying it to, gets it right… that’s luck more than anything else.

This approach has served me well in all things. It makes me laugh when I hear someone claim all the presets are terrible, they move a parameter or two and now, suddenly, it’s “brilliant” — cool! As long as they’re having fun!

Hope that helps.

 
Posted : 26/08/2021 9:48 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

😀 😀 😀 😀

Now, can anyone imagine that 592 chart having an explanation like that one on each...?

😀 😀 😀 😀

And thanks to the last but one paragraph I can finally understand what was meant when "lucky composer" was heard.

Yamaha should name the Montage replacement Mariana, deepest one can go.

 
Posted : 27/08/2021 3:50 am
Posts: 1718
Member Admin
 

😀 😀 😀 😀

Now, can anyone imagine that 592 chart having an explanation like that one on each...?

😀 😀 😀 😀

If you can imagine it interactive, on an iPad, yes.

Just like HyperCard, from 1986/7 - before the internet and before Nirvana.

yes, there was a time back then... when the world only feared nuclear apocalypse. And AIDS.

 
Posted : 27/08/2021 6:49 am
 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Thank you so much Bad Mister for this so precise, comprehensive and interesting post. I've learnt many things thanks to you.

I was playing synth, in the 70's, with a Smal Stone Mk2. It was a long, long time ago and I got rid of it many time ago too. That's the reason why I'm trying to simiulate this effect and to get as closest as possible.

Thanks again.

 
Posted : 27/08/2021 6:52 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

Awesome! Start with the 4-Stage Presets… applied as an Insertion Effect.

From the Synthesizer Parameter Manual:
Mode — For VCM Phaser Mono and VCM Phaser Stereo, this parameter determines the phaser type, or more specifically, the factor for forming the phaser effect.

 
Posted : 27/08/2021 7:56 am
 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks again Phil

 
Posted : 16/09/2021 12:48 pm
Share:

© 2024 Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.    Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us