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Topic starter
My goal is to play a sound file on my computer, route that audio to the Motif's assignable output via FW, which via connection to the A/D input would then be used to operate the Vocoder effect for a sound playing through Main L&R.
Is this possible in theory? I have managed to get the sound file playing through assignable output, but the vocoder effect does not seem to be working and after attempting to monitor A/D input I seem to be getting some kind of feedback of which I cannot determine the source.
Posted : 26/09/2017 9:43 pm
First, figure out where the feedback is coming from ... Feedback is the source being routed around in a loop.
For example, audio from the computer arrives in the XS (I assume you returning it to AsgnL&R), then you are connecting the analog Asgn Outs to the A/D Input. The A/D Input is routed to the Vocoder (but you don’t mention if the A/D Input’s OUTPUT SELECT is still assigned to the Main L&R... which would dutifully Return the signal to the computer... which would then start the process all over again.
Result = feedback loop
Suggestion: I was always taught to uncomplicated things as much as possible. When you are feeding the Output of something back to its input, you want avoid thinking you’ve found a perfect solution. Feedback is a result of just such routing (if you are not careful) and with a Vocoder involved please be very, very careful with your volume. (I say that because it is human nature when attempting to route signal to assume that when it is not working, it must be a volume issue. So the volume settings at each stage are inevitably CRANKED. “Maybe it’s just that it’s not turned up” is the common conclusion... so then when you finally discover that one setting that was the actual culprit and you correct it... WHAM! You take your own head off with all that maximum volume.) Be extremely careful - you only get the one set of ears (not to mention your speakers - which can easily be replaced).
Remember: the Vocoder (Voice encoder) allows the A/D Input to be a modifier for a synth sound... but it is not just routing it there...you must additionally/simultaneously gate the signal by using the Keyboard. In other words, you must press a key or keys to make the Vocoder manifest sound. You are modifying a synth sound, the key press will determine the pitches produced.
Posted : 27/09/2017 1:17 pm
Topic starter
Bad Mister wrote:
First, figure out where the feedback is coming from ... Feedback is the source being routed around in a loop.
For example, audio from the computer arrives in the XS (I assume you returning it to AsgnL&R), then you are connecting the analog Asgn Outs to the A/D Input. The A/D Input is routed to the Vocoder (but you don’t mention if the A/D Input’s OUTPUT SELECT is still assigned to the Main L&R... which would dutifully Return the signal to the computer... which would then start the process all over again.
Result = feedback loop
I've triple checked to make sure this is not the case, and I really do think I've set it up to avoid such a loop.
On the computer end, only the single track which contains the sound file is being Returned on AsgnL. System audio remains Returned on MainL&R. Therefore, even when I carefully try to monitor A/D input via [Utility] -> [Voice Audio] -> [Output], changing Output Select from 'Ins L' to 'Main L&R'... I don't think this should cause feedback? Besides the single track Returned on AsgnL, the rest of the setup does not seem to differ from the norm and it's not as if I've ever run into a purely digital feedback loop over FW in the past. I can't imagine why the keyboard's FW MainL&R output to the computer would end up coming back on the AsgnL Return, which is I believe what would be required for feedback? That is, the only audio ever travelling the Return to AsgnL should be my sound file sitting on the track.
Bad Mister wrote:
Suggestion: I was always taught to uncomplicated things as much as possible. When you are feeding the Output of something back to its input, you want avoid thinking you’ve found a perfect solution.
Far from it! During this process I'm constantly cursing my luck for having found my way to an edge of Yamaha's design -- a fork in the road where the average use-case (microphone + vocoder) and my own (prerecorded-audio + vocoder) diverge. I'd love to be able to play with the Vocoder without resorting to A/D (and D/A) conversion, but alas...
Bad Mister wrote:
Feedback is a result of just such routing (if you are not careful) and with a Vocoder involved please be very, very careful with your volume. (I say that because it is human nature when attempting to route signal to assume that when it is not working, it must be a volume issue. So the volume settings at each stage are inevitably CRANKED. “Maybe it’s just that it’s not turned up” is the common conclusion... so then when you finally discover that one setting that was the actual culprit and you correct it... WHAM! You take your own head off with all that maximum volume.) Be extremely careful - you only get the one set of ears (not to mention your speakers - which can easily be replaced).
Good advice. Whenever I've gone to monitor A/D Input I've been careful to lower both my speaker volume knob and the Gain knob next to the A/D Input. Then I slightly increase the Gain and follow with a slight increase in speaker volume: abnormal clicks or tones are quickly apparent. Surely a frightening audio signal with either knob turned much further.
Bad Mister wrote:
Remember: the Vocoder (Voice encoder) allows the A/D Input to be a modifier for a synth sound... but it is not just routing it there...you must additionally/simultaneously gate the signal by using the Keyboard. In other words, you must press a key or keys to make the Vocoder manifest sound. You are modifying a synth sound, the key press will determine the pitches produced.
I have indeed been pressing the keys while the sound file is playing on my computer, in order to see if it is working. No sound results. In the Vocoder settings page I tried lowering the 'Mic Gate Threshhold' value until I heard sound. This worked, except what is heard is the original synth sounding relatively unmodified. A bit of a static sound is added but no 'robot voice', just the standard organ-like amplitude envelope. Almost as if the Vocoder was being modulated by feedback noise? But that would mean a feedback loop is occurring in the background even when A/D Input is not being 'monitored' via changing route from 'Ins L' to 'Main L&R'. Perhaps it's not feedback noise that is modulating the sound, but the inherent noise of back-to-back D/A and A/D conversion? But, in that case I would expect to hear some sort of proper modulation coming from the Vocoder on the way from -45dB to -60dB Mic Gate Threshold.
Judging from your response, it seems that although this is unusual and potentially dangerous, it is not theoretically impossible. Today I'll try and set this whole thing up from scratch again to see if I can identify any errors in my process that I may have failed to communicate or entirely missed.
Thanks, as always, for your time and help.
Posted : 27/09/2017 4:49 pm
Topic starter
Success! It appears it was nothing but human error. Additional thanks are in order.
For the benefit of anyone arriving via search engine, here is (I believe) my full process for setting this up using the following:
[list]
- Open a new project in Reaper.
- Insert a new track.
- Drag the audio file (which you will be using to modulate the Vocoder) from Windows Explorer to the track.
- Click on the Route button on the track (between Volume and Pan knobs).
- Under "- Audio Hardware Outputs -" click the drop-down labeled 'Add New Hardware Output'.
- Select 'Motif XS8 Asgn L'.
- Important: uncheck the box labeled 'Master send'. This ensures that when you hit Play in Reaper, the track only plays to the newly added Hardware Output and not through the main path to your speakers.
- You should hit Play in Reaper to ensure that you don't hear anything (assuming you don't yet have anything connected to the Assignable Output jacks of the Motif). You can also temporarily connect a speaker to the Asgn L jack to ensure that the clip is being played through there.
- On the Motif, select the sound which you would like to be modulated by the Vocoder. I chose an organ preset: "St. Peter" [PRE 2 : A06]. (Anyone familiar with the classic Mac 'Pipe Organ' text-to-speech voice?)
- Now to setup the audio routing on the Motif. Press [Utility] -> [F2] (I/O).
- Ensure that under 'Input' - 'Mic/Line', 'line' is selected.
- Press [F4] (VoiceAudio) -> [SF1] (Output).
- Under 'A/D Input' change 'Output Select' to 'ins L'.
- Now [Exit] back to the Voice screen and press [F6] (Effect) -> [SF1] (Connect).
- In the top-right quadrant between the two Insertion Effect selectors, change 'INSERTION CONNECT' to 'ins L'.
- Press [SF2] (Ins L) and change 'Type' from 'Thru' to 'Vocoder'.
- Now comes the dangerous part, if things hasn't been set up properly. Don't assume! An improper setup escaped my triple-checking yesterday. As a precaution, first turn your Speakers down to zero and then reach behind your Motif and turn the little Gain knob next to the A/D Input down to zero as well.
- Connect an audio cable from the Assignable L jack to the A/D Input L/Mono jack.
- Press Play in Reaper (consider looping if it is a short sound clip).
- Press and hold a key (say, middle C) on your Motif's keyboard. A sustain pedal can be handy since you'll be using your hands in a second to carefully raise input gain and speaker volume.
- Slightly increase the input gain using the little knob next to the A/D Input jacks. Then slightly increase the volume of your speakers. Keep doing this until you hear something: hopefully your chosen Voice being modulated by your sound file in Reaper. If you start to hear any clicking or unusual tone, turn both knobs back to zero, disconnect the audio cable from both A/D Input and Asgn L, take a deep breath, and reevaluate your routing setup.
Proof of success attached. ¡Viva la Vocoder!
Posted : 27/09/2017 9:34 pm
Topic starter
Today I've figured out another method of operating the Vocoder. Rather than relying on your DAW to provide the audio, it is possible to send ALL system (Windows) audio to the Vocoder. The modulated synth tone is heard via DirectMonitor and can be recorded into your DAW via FW MainL&R.
This allows you to quickly browse different audio clips (to be fed into the Vocoder) in any program such as a web browser, iTunes, or the media browser of your choice. Via the previous method, each clip had to be loaded into a track in the DAW; the system audio method allows for much greater inspiration for me, at least.
To route Windows system audio to the Vocoder:
- Open the Yamaha Steinberg FW Driver control panel. This can be done by right clicking the YSFW icon in the Windows taskbar.
- Under 'WDM' click 'Audio Routing...'
- Under 'Output', change 'Ports' to 'Asgn L/R'
- Click OK
Then, steps 8 through 21 above still apply. Just replace "press Play in Reaper" with "play an audio clip in the program of your choice".
I've attached an example of feeding music from YouTube into the vocoder and applying it to the preset Voice 'Wood Panel' [PRE 5 : 075(E11)].
Another reminder to take great care in avoiding and verifying the absence of feedback.
Posted : 28/09/2017 8:53 pm
Excellent!
Posted : 29/09/2017 12:15 pm
