With MTC each device is running at its own set tempo, so that they can be run independently as far as tempo. The fact that they are remaining consistently separated is a good thing (actually) what you will need to do is offset the Clock Start so that they agree where Measure 001, Beat 01 is located.

Typically, the MTC Clock Source will allow you to create a preroll (count-in) before start of top of Song. You want them to agree on where the first downbeat occurs.

On the Yamaha Hard disk recorders you would set up a two Measure count-in at the Time Signature and Tempo of the audio recorder... then the MTC Clock Start would be sent to external devices. This would ensure synchronization when needing both to reference the same tempo and Time Signature. It created a situation where you designate where Measure 1 Beat 1 is and that is where the slave device would start its count.

Hi Bad Mister,

Thank you for your response. It's nice to have some new leads on this.

Can you recall how, specifically, the Yamaha recorders allowed for the creation of a two measure pre-roll before beat 1 bar 1? I browsed through a manual for the AW2400 looking for something along these lines but didn't find it yet.

In my case, I do have MTC offset available on both the XS8 and the VS2000. But not sure what other tools might be available. Perhaps there is something equivalent to the Yamaha recorders. I'm happy to give anything a try!

By the way, I only recently bought this XS8 and haven't done a factory reset yet as I need to transfer some songs off it for the previous owner. But could it be possible that some setting made by the previous owner is throwing me off?

---

A couple of extra questions as I work to get my head around these issues:

* Is it normal for a MTC slave device to lag behind the master and never catch up? I've heard before of the common practice of leaving a couple of empty bars to allow for a MTC slave machine to lock into tight sync. But I guess I just don't understand how the slave machine (XS8 in this case) could continue to play so late when it is receiving a stream of 'current' time code information. Unless the slave device itself has some serious internal latency.

* Is "MTC offset" designed for use in situations like this (i.e. to correct for system lag?). I had an earlier understanding that it was for when, say, a composer wanted his or her sequence to begin alongside a particular scene in a film, rather than starting at the beginning.

...could it be possible that some setting made by the previous owner is throwing me off?

Anything is possible, but let me say that this is extremely unlikely. Extremely.

Is it normal for a MTC slave device to lag behind the master and never catch up? I've heard before of the common practice of leaving a couple of empty bars to allow for a MTC slave machine to lock into tight sync. But I guess I just don't understand how the slave machine (XS8 in this case) could continue to play so late when it is receiving a stream of 'current' time code information. Unless the slave device itself has some serious internal latency.

It is not normal for when it is working properly... but you could certainly get two devices referencing MTC to do that. It is designed for use with film... where often a certain amount of music must be used to hit certain cue points. So, this is just the kind of thing you can do with MTC.

Each device is locked to 120bpm so they stay exactly out of sync (if you will) you need to deal with the Start Point. Fail to do that and they will both be very consistently out of sync. Once they agree on the start time the sync you want will happen.

In general, your audio recorder is the fixed item... it is going to have to play at the tempo it was recorded in order to maintain original pitch (law of physics). I assume you recorded using a metronome so that your recorder shows Measures and Beats. You need to locate the exact point at which Measure 1, Beat 1 occurs. That is the point at which you want the synthesizer Sequencer to start... you will need to configure the MTC OFFSET. That is its purpose. Your devices are syncing, they just disagree about the initial downbeat.

You are not doing film, why not use standard MIDI CLOCK? Does the recorder send MIDI CLOCK?
MIDI Clock is easy, the slave device has no choice but to start and follow the master clock

MTC is SMTPE time code configured to travel down a MIDI cable. So Hours, Minutes, Seconds, and Frames are used to locate visuals in the film.
You are scoring the movie and need to know precisely the frame the bad guy jumps from behind the curtain scaring everyone in the theatre. You can adjust your MIDI TEMPO so that if you have 2minutes of music building up to the scare frame, you can make necessary tempo adjustments (MIDI being so tempo flexible) this way the big crescendo lands properly, at the exact frame it should.

It isn't not better sync, (urban legend) it is different. Sync is one of those things that IS or ISN'T. There are no degrees of good or bad, it does or it doesn't sync.

I'll try to find the article I wrote on how the AW's allowed you to establish sync. If I recall the AW had a Measure and Beat counter, and you could create a two Measure count-in from the clock start point...
The key is to use the OFFSET function so that both devices agree on the significant musical start point. Pre-roll is recommended because count-ins allow for more flexible creativity (adding things like pickups) plus as mentioned sync is quick but immediate (it does not have to be... if you leave a little space in front)

If I find it I will attach it as a zipped PDF (it maybe helpful)...

Attached is the PDF that covers MIDI Sync, MTC and Synchronization of the Motif ES and AW1600 (circa 2003)
Hope it helps. Your recorder may not have the same function but will have something similar. Let us know.

Many thanks Bad Mister.

The guide you wrote gave an excellent run-down, and illustrated where I was going wrong. I was not previously aware that MTC would be unsuitable for use while attempting to record sequence data. This most likely explains the strange issues I was seeing with note recording and playback.

So this leaves me with the option, as you said, of using MIDI clock instead.

I have tried MIDI clock sync between the XS8 and VS2000 now, and it works to a reasonable extent. The weakness I'm seeing is that it takes quite a few bars for the two devices to play well in time. Specifically, the Motif starts out behind and takes anywhere from 4 bars to 10 bars (!) to get into good sync.

----

I never thought I'd be considering this, but...

* When using MIDI clock, my QY700 sequencer locks instantly, from the very first beat of the first bar.

* When using MTC, my QY700 has a 2nd set of MIDI ins and outs that can be used to keep timing data separated from note data, and everything works as expected with recording

This might all be leading me down the path of giving up all the modern-integrated-workstation wonderfulness of the XS8 and going back to the QY700 as my sequencing hub. After all these years, it's still hard to beat for sheer solidness [very limited compared to a modern, integrated solution in many other ways, of course].

Sorry, but what you say doesn't sound right at all. You should be able to use either MTC or MIDI Clock, and you should be able to get excellent results. And there is no reason that your current keyboard doesn't sync right away like the QY700. That's a fact. You may have resolved yourself to giving up but I wouldn't.

Let me ask you a couple of questions which you still have not revealed
1) Does your audio recorder show accurately the Measure and Beat as it plays back?
2) Does it start the musical count accurately at Measure 1, Beat 1 where music actually begins?

Thanks for sticking with me on this, Bad Mister. I'm definitely hoping it will turn out that I can keep using the XS8 sequencer and get great sync performance.

Yes, the VS2000 shows beat and measure accurately while playing back. In fact, it displays both measure/beat information and absolute time. The measure/beat changes exactly with the VS2000's metronome (as far as my eyes can tell).

Using MIDI clock sync:

- I can initiate playback from the VS2000, starting from any position in the song, and the QY700 immediately plays, in the right position and in perfect time

- Under the exact same circumstances, the XS8 starts with a lag and takes between 4 and 10 bars to get into time. After that it is ok.

Sorry, I can't write more now, but would be happy to follow up later with a video to illustrate.

Hi again (and thank you once again for reading).

I've now done a video, which should be live soon. Video link will be https://youtu.be/8BmrxTD4M9c

The video has one major issue, which is that the lagging XS8 metronome cannot be heard as clearly as it should. I didn't have the relative levels set quite right and everything was a bit quiet generally for the phone recording, as my baby girl was asleep. If you cannot hear the lag I'm talking about, I will understand and will do a new video showing it better tomorrow.

In the video (2:55 length), I show how the equipment is configured and do three quick demonstrations:

1) Play, listening to the VS2000 metronome alone to demonstrate that it is in time with the displayed measure/beat
2) Play, listening to the VS2000 metronome and the QY700 metronome to demonstrate that they are immediately in time
3) Play, listening to the VS2000 metronone and the XS8 metronome to demonstrate that there is an initial lag of the XS8, which goes away after about 8 bars in this case

Use no pre-roll at your peril.

Let's do some basic fact finding:
Try syncing just the QY700 and the Motif XS - make the QY700 Master Clock, the XS the slave. (eliminate the VS altogether)
Convince yourself there is no lag or verify that MIDI SYNC between these two has an issue.

If there is a problem? Next eliminate the box in between responsible for MIDI IN/OUT... In other words run a single MIDI cable between QY700 OUT and XS IN. What I'm looking for is if the XS just simply cannot Sync... which will lead to our next step...

Let us know.

Hi Bad Mister,

I've done the suggested tests and the results are somewhat revealing (I think).

1) Making the XS8 slave to the QY700 via MIDI clock: this time, the XS8 picks up and plays perfectly in time, right from the first beat. Very nice to hear!

2) Making the XS8 slave to the VS2000 by direct cable (bypassing the UM880 MIDI patchbay): no good, same behaviour of the XS8 starting out behind and catching up over a few bars

What does this suggest? Something peculiar about the VS2000 MIDI clock output or MMC commands as it starts playing? Something that the QY700 can handle but the XS8 doesn't like?

...

Regarding pre-roll, I can of course leave 8 blank bars at the start of every song. However, the lag-and-catchup behaviour with the VS2000 and XS8 happens no matter where in the song I initiate playback. So the way things currently work, I'd have to listen through several bars of loosely-timed playback to listen to or overdub MIDI in ANY section of a song. A bit of a groove killer.

...

Anyway, to finish on a positive note, I feel like these tests led to some progress and I appreciate your determined support here.

There usually is a cause, just have to find it.

Clearly it is something between the clock of the VS and the XS specifically. Interesting.

No pre-roll is necessary with MIDI clock - as the Slave is not using its own clock. With MIDI clock there is NO wiggle room. Unlike MTC, with MIDI clock only one device is responsible for clock. The Slave device has no choice but to follow the settings of the Master clock device... or so it should be.
Clearly the XS can sync, when sent MIDI clock from the QY700 => XS things work.

That was my fear, I have no way to continue to help, as I am unable to test anything...

Let me think on it for a while.

Thank you Bad Mister,

Given all this, I'm inclined to try reconfiguring my setup to use a DAW instead.

I bought this XS8 secondhand and didn't get a Cubase disk or licence key. If I'm going to get Cubase, I'm wondering what version(s) to go for. From reading old threads (that you also contributed to), I gather that some Cubase versions "broke" the close integration with the XS, but this may have been remedied by later versions (?). Anyway, those threads were some time ago.

If you're still following what works and what doesn't, how would you advise someone starting afresh? Which version of Cubase will give me the fullest integration with the XS8 and the least hassle? I don't mind buying a legacy version of Cubase if that is the best bet.

Don’t get a “legacy version” get the most current. Software is not really purchased outright, you are buying a subscription- because as your computer updates, so must the software you run on it. And there is no benefit in this situation to buying an older legacy version. Even though the XS is ten years old, it is still completely supported.

Buy the Cubase software version that meets your needs, they all integrate with the XS. They all run the EDITOR VST, They all have MediaBay Sound Browser to organize your Voices and Mixing setups. Cubase Pro is the top of the line, and there is the most flexible when it comes to audio routing. Take your time and do some research based on how you envision using the software.

If you are going to make extensive use of the 16 bus FW audio Outputs, the Cubase Pro version offers very advanced and customizable routing and processing possibilities.

One is not really any easier to operate. Once you get configured it all starts to make sense - configuration if done properly is only necessary once... then you can “teach” the software how you want to work.

There usually is a cause, just have to find it.

Clearly it is something between the clock of the VS and the XS specifically. Interesting.

No pre-roll is necessary with MIDI clock - as the Slave is not using its own clock. With MIDI clock there is NO wiggle room. Unlike MTC, with MIDI clock only one device is responsible for clock. The Slave device has no choice but to follow the settings of the Master clock device... or so it should be.
Clearly the XS can sync, when sent MIDI clock from the QY700 => XS things work.

That was my fear, I have no way to continue to help, as I am unable to test anything...

Let me think on it for a while.

I'm back to give an update/some more info.

Recap:

Last time I was here I was experiencing an issue with the XS8 sequencer syncing via MIDI clock to a hardware multitrack (Roland VS200CD). The XS8 as MIDI clock slave (via its MIDI DIN input) would lag behind the beat for up to 8 bars before finally coming into proper sync with the hardware recorder (video in thread above). QY700 in same position would sync immediately. We tentatively concluded it must be an issue with the hardware recorder's clock output.

Update:

Yesterday I tried syncing the XS8 again in an entirely different hardware configuration. No hardware multitrack. Windows computer running Reaper, using entirely different MIDI path than before (but still using the XS8 MIDI DIN input). The outcome: exactly the same sync issue as before. Good sync between DAW and XS8 clicks is not established for around 8 bars. Exact performance in first 8 bars varies every time I press play, and is sometimes quite wildly off the beat. So now it seems this problem is not tied to specific MIDI clock source hardware.

I wonder whether anyone else is slaving their XS sequencer to MIDI clock through MIDI DIN input? If so, could you comment on how you've found the sync performance? I'm wondering whether my XS8 is typical or whether it might have an issue that could be fixed.

All the best,

Michael