I recently bought a MODX7 and became really frustrated with the way (at least) the ASDR curve is handled amongst different presets.

Congrats on your purchase - in time I think you will be happy with the extensive control you have over the sounds it can create.

BUT - your frustration is understandable. As it happens there are often several places where parameters can be modified but only ONE of those places changes the parameter directly. The other places only apply an OFFSET to the parameter.

As you, unknowingly, discovered the Quick Edit screen is one of those places where changes apply an offset to the actual parameter rather than change the parameter itself.

Afaik I'm supposed to control ASDR for all elements of a part through Quick Edit screen, which works well enough for acoustic piano and generally all "blue" coloured presets in the category search.

Yes - and No - The Quick Edit screen can apply 'offsets' to 1) parameters for ALL parts if the 'Part' dropdown selection is set to 'Common' or 2) parameters for a single part if the 'Part' dropdown select is set to 'Partn' where n is 1-16 (p.35 of the reference doc).

The ADSR parameters shown on that screen are just SOME of the envelope parameters. The 'Attack' parameter shown is an offset to the 'AEG Attack Time' (not level) that is applied to ALL elements of the selected part or, if 'Common' is selected for ALL elements of ALL parts.

So the value you select on this screen does NOT change the attack time itself but is used to 'offset' whatever attack time has been set on each for each of the individual elements involved. This is described on page 36 of the doc:

Attack (AEG Attack Time)

Determines the speed of attack from the time a key is played until the maximum initial level of the AEG
is reached. This parameter determines the offset value of the AEG (page 123, page 143, page 157) for
the Element/Drum Key/Operator.
Settings: -64 – +63

If you set a value of +63 on this screen but the actual element value for Attack Time (page 123) is 127 the value won't actually change at all since 127 is the max possible value.

And if you use -63 on this screen but the element value is 127 the resulting attack time will be 127-63 or 64.

NOTE: Attack, Decay and Release on the quick edit screen are 'time' values - the screen does NOT have 'level' values for those parameters. Sustain on the screen is a 'level' value and NOT a 'time' value. Confusingly there is no 'sustain' parameter on the actual element edit screen (p.123) since it is the 'decay' values that determine the sustain level.

Confusing? Yes - so don't beat yourself up about it - there is no way you could have known that offsets are being used.

In the meantime I figured most / all blue coloured presets would support all ASDR parameters as expected, but there are also some green coloured ones that WOULD response to an attack adjustment under Quick Edit / by using the knobs on the left hand side.

And now you know that the Quick Edit screen does NOT 'support all ASDR parameters'. It only supports some of them and even those apply offsets and do NOT change the actual parameter value.

So it's not like I'm not using the ASDR functionality correctly.

It's more a question of learning how it works so you can decide if that is the best way to do what you are trying to do.

Can anyone please explain to me why this is (due to different effect types?) and if it's still possible to adjust attack for the "Hard Drive" distorted guitar somehow?

Yes - it is possible to adjust the attack action for that performance. But using Quick Edit may not be the best way to try to do that. You may want to adjust the attack for each element individually on the 'edit element' screen.

Work with one element at a time by muting the other elements. Then adjust the envelope for that one element until you get the results you want. Adjust each of the other elements one at a time.

Because Quick Edit makes changes to ALL of the components of a part it often won't work well for things like ASDR where each elements envelope may be radically different from each other.

On my Montage M8X that performance has one part and that part has 7 elements.

Every element has a DIFFERENT envelope for AEG - only the envelopes for elements 2 and 3 are identical.

So if you use Quick edit to modify ASDR you are change all seven envelopes. And you are applying the SAME offset to each of those envelopes even though the envelope parameters have different starting values. On my instrument the attack time parameter values for the seven elements are: 57,57,57,28,39,65,39.

If you apply an Attack offset of -39 on the quick edit screen you effectively wind up with: 18,18,18,0,0,26,0.

It can get even stranger if you select 'Common' and there are multiple parts in the performance since that offset of -39 will be applied to ALL elements of ALL parts.

If you haven't come across it yet the various 'volume/level' parameters also use offsets as described above. In addition, control assignments can each have an individual 'curve' that can apply offsets in unexpected ways.

Sorry for the length but the whole concept of 'offsets' is central to understanding how things are done in the Modx, Modx+, Montage and Montage M models.

Don't hesitate to ask more questions as you start working through this. You really need to wrap your head around this if you want to get the most out of your instrument. Many of the presets can do some weird things when you use the super knob, control knobs and sliders and many of those things are the result of the way offsets are used.

Thanks for the very detailed response! It cleared up a few things for me.

(even though I should probably expect something that detailed from a person who's likely a Yamaha employee. I mean... the very first sentence gives away that much lol)

Anyway, as far as I understand now the Quick Edit "Attack" will effectively only control the offset. That's strange though, since I could use it on the default CFX acoustic piano to control the Attack time (attack works the same as a fade in here, as I would expect). It also works identically on all blue coloured distorted guitar synths (the ones at the very top in category search).

What's so special about the blue coloured samples that Quick Edit / Attack knob works here to adjust the attack time?

So either I don't understand something correctly in your response, or I guess there's more to the Quick Edit screen  / the sample types than you told me?

I get that each element having a different amplitude ADSR curve may complicate matters a bit for the Quick Edit screen. But still, I have trouble imagining having to adjust all 8 elements (at worst, for e.g. CFX piano) is the "intended way" by Yamaha. Like, even in FL Studio you can just adjust attack by a simple knob for each sample.

I read somewhere in the manual you at least can copy paste curves from one element to another, but this requires pressing some physical buttons and cannot be carried out solely through the touch screen? Is there no easier way to do that?

Also, there's another major issue that I ponder sending the MODX back for – it's the fact I cannot adjust screen brightness on the MODX. Afaik this cannot be solved by a firmware update since Yamaha cheaped out on the transistors / electric components that makes any sort of PWM dimming impossible.

Not sure if other users in here had the same issue before / if you know some kind of foil / natural dimming sheets that would be suitable to tape over the screen so I can work on the MODX at night with only room lighting on? All sheets I can find have at least 50% dimming ratio, which is way too much... I'd need 30% or less and availability in Europe / Germany, but I'm only able to find US retailers that offer ND sheets with these properties.

I know you can attach external screens using an old DisplayLink adapter (I got several here that I initially bought for a multi monitor setup), and apparently even external touch screens are supposed to work... But what kind of DisplayLink adapter / screen type would you need for that?

Posted by: 90110n

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Hello everyone,

I recently bought a MODX7 and became really frustrated with the way (at least) the ASDR curve is handled amongst different presets.

Afaik I'm supposed to control ASDR for all elements of a part through Quick Edit screen, which works well enough for acoustic piano and generally all "blue" coloured presets in the category search. 

Yesterday I attempted to create a heavy distorted guitar sound with a smooth attack, and figured "Hard Drive" (green coloured) under guitar -> distortion was pretty much ideal as a base sample. Much too my dismay I figured something as simple as an attack parameter (that should literally just fade in volume!) wouldn't do shit, decay also seemed to be without effect, only sustain and release would somewhat work as expected.

In the meantime I figured most / all blue coloured presets would support all ASDR parameters as expected, but there are also some green coloured ones that WOULD response to an attack adjustment under Quick Edit / by using the knobs on the left hand side. So it's not like I'm not using the ASDR functionality correctly.

Can anyone please explain to me why this is (due to different effect types?) and if it's still possible to adjust attack for the "Hard Drive" distorted guitar somehow? 

I really don't understand this, since the MODX is just supposed to fade in volume and that's all I'm asking for... Why does this have to depend on the effect type / the inner workings of the effect creation? The attack should be applied on-top of the processing, heck, I'd be fine with it being applied as kind of master FX on top of the performance itself if that's possible somehow.

I also figured I can adjust pitch and amp curves for each element, but there's nothing similar for the entire part? That feels even more ridiculous, as many presets use like 3+ elements and I don't want to adjust the parameters for each element but rather for all at once, but the simplified quick edit screen is all we got there?

Thanks in advance

 

There's a lot to unpack here mate, so I'll just give you a gentle shove in the right direction.

First... Start Small.  Don't bite off more than you can chew.  

Those Green vs Blue Presets.  Green Presets are "Single Part" Performances. Blue are Multi-Part Performances, where there is a LOT more going on.

In any case, start by working out what you want to do with an "Instrument" (e.g. Part) while it is still in its Green Single Part Performance.  In other words, get it set up and Store it, before you merge it into a Multi-Part (Blue) Performance.

In your case, the Single Part Performance "Hard Drive" is where you'd want to start. 

But,  since I don't have my MODX in front of me,  instead I recommend you start with an AWM2 Normal INIT for some practice. 

Open the INIT and change the Part 1, Element 1 to waveform "Saw".   It's a very bland, rudimentary sample, but it serves this exercise perfectly. 

Edit Part 1, Element 1, and go to the AEG (Amplitude Envelope Generator).  

For the sake of this example Set Attack Level = 127,  Decay1 Time = 0, and Decay1 Level = 127... we won't be using them.

Now set Decay2 Level = 127, and Decay 2 Time =0 ...  more on that in a minute. 

Whilst repeatedly playing a note, adjust the Attack Time.  You will notice that as you increase the Attack Time,  the note starts to Fade In, or "Bow" (as in Violin Bow). 

Now,  decrease Decay2 Level to 64. This is the defacto "Sustain Level" in Yamaha's Envelope Design.  

Now increase Decay2 Time... this is the defacto "Decay Time" in Yamaha's Envelope Design. 

You'll see the graphic now looks like a traditional ADSR Envelope.  

Attack Time = A

Decay2 Time = D

Decay2 Level = S

Release Time = R

Mess around with these 4 controls only, to get a feel of what's going on. 

The Decay1 Time and Decay1 Level are an additional Envelope Stage that can be used to create more complex Envelopes when desired. 

If you flip over to the FEG (Filter Envelope Generator) Tab,  you'll find something similar, which controls the Filter Cutoff.  This is why I chose "Saw" as a good example waveform,  because you can clearly hear what the Filter is doing to the Saw waveform. 

The most notable addition of the FEG compared to the AEG, is that you get an FEG Depth Control,  which is the same as the "Envelope Amount" or "Sensitivity" on traditional ADSR Synths. 

Now here's something you probably won't like...  the AEG, FEG and PEG are "per element".  So as you surmised... yes, you need to set Envelopes for each Element. 

Down the line, you will figure out how to use the Element Copy & Paste functions to quickly set Envelopes for all Elements, but that's a different topic. 

As previously mentioned, the Top Panel or Quick Edit  "ADSR" controls are not actually changing the core Envelope Parameter values.   They are adding or subtracting "Offset" values from ALL Envelope Parameters... that's ALL Elements/Operators, in ALL Parts. 

So, if you plan on using the High Level Offset Controls for "ADSR" its important that you get ALL your Ducks In a Row first... and that means setting all EG Parameter beforehand,  so that changing the Offsets has the right effect on ALL the Parts.

Finally.... going back to the "Hard Drive" Single Part Performance. 

Again, I have no MODX in front of me, so this is general advice. 

The problem with setting ADSRs against sampled "real instruments"  is that very often, the Sample itself is a recording of the natural Attack, Decay, Sustain and Release of that instrument. 

In the case of a Guitar, it would have no Attack (A "Pluck"), a very quick decay, followed by a low Sustain, and a long Relesase. That's it Natural Envelope. 

If you try and superimpose an Artificial ADSR over the top,  the results may not be as expected or desired. 

To overcome this,  the MODX has "Offset" Samples to use instead. 

For Example:-

Normal Guitar Sample  = "Guitar"

Offset Guitar Sample = "Guitar_Of"

The "Offset" Samples are basically looping samples of an instrument "In Sustain".  The Attack, Decay and Release portions of their natural sound are excluded. 

This allows you to set your own ADSR, as you wish to do.  

There's a lot more funky stuff you can do in AWM2, but I'll leave it there for now.  That's plenty to chew on. 

Kind of summarizing what's already been said ...

The customary ADSR controls allow for increasing or decreasing the time of A (ttack), D (ecay), and R (elease) as well as the level of S (ustain).

Elsewhere there are programmed values for parameters that these controls do not offset.  Namely the Attack Level, Decay Level, etc.  Depending on these levels increasing or decreasing the time may not do what you want.

Also, for AWM2, this amplitude envelope is superimposed over a sample.   Therefore, if the sample has its own envelope inherit in the recording then superimposing another envelope over one that's already there may not do what you want.  The sample's inherit envelope may dominate particularly if you're trying to slow the attack - if the sample has a fast attack then you can only make the attack faster - not slower with a superimposed envelope.

What you really want to have control over a sample is to have the sample act as just a loop at a constant level (no real inherit envelope) so your superimposed envelope can dominate.

There are ways to also get a slow attack on even samples that have a fast attack - but that involves delaying the attack by keeping the attack level at zero, having a "long" time for attack, then use Decay 1 as the attack instead which would rise after the sample's recorded attack.  Then you'd also have to play all of these notes early so the delayed attack lands at the intended spot.   This is probably easier to manage with sequences (getting the notes to line up) where the other alternative of reprogramming the Performance to use attack-less samples may be easier for live performance.

Posted by: Jason

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Also, for AWM2, this amplitude envelope is superimposed over a sample.   Therefore, if the sample has its own envelope inherit in the recording then superimposing another envelope over one that's already there may not do what you want.  The sample's inherit envelope may dominate particularly if you're trying to slow the attack - if the sample has a fast attack then you can only make the attack faster - not slower with a superimposed envelope.

There are some Sample Waveforms,  that are recorded without Attack, Decay and Release portions.  These are called "Offset Samples" ( I learned this from Bad Mister), and they are looping samples. 

Example Waveform Numbers are

903 Violin1 St Of

904 Violin1 L Of

905 Violin1 R Of

"Of" = Offset

Unfortunately,  there aren't any Offset Samples for a Guitar - I checked.

My presumption is that 99% of the signature sound of a Guitar is in its Attack and Decay,  its a "Plucked String" instrument. Therefore,  there would be no need for a Guitar Sound without its "Attack & Decay" signature.

However, all is not lost for OP,  because he is looking for Distorted Guitar sounds. 

A Distorted Guitar in Sustain is not that much different than the sounds of other Harmonically Rich Instruments (e.g. Cellos, Violins, Violas, Saxophones, Trumpets, Trombones etc).  Therefore Offset Samples of these instruments, with appropriate AEG ADSR, and maybe FEG ADSR could be used to mimic a Distorted Electric Guitar. 

Alternatively,  there is the option of using classic Subtractive Synth Oscillator Waveforms (e.g. Saw and Pulse waveforms), again with appropriate Filter,  AEG and FEG. This is the classic "Keytar" method (e.g. Roland AX-Edge). 

This all about getting into sound design with features AWM2 Offers. OP would obviously need to experiment. 

The INITIAL level needs to be taken into account when working with ATTACK. The ATTACK time is an OFFSET that changes how long it takes to go from the initial level to the attack level.

The Hard Drive performance on my M8X has 7 elements and the attack level is 127 (the max) for all of them. But the INITIAL level is also pretty high:

#1 = 88, #2 = 127, #3 = 127, #4 = 88, #5 = 73, #6 = 37, #7 = 73

So elements #3 and #4 are already at max so they can't increase at all. And #1 and #2 don't have far to go to get to max - their volume starts really high to begin with. Even #5 and #7 are over halfway to max when they start. Only #6 is going to have much effect and that is the Distortion FX waveform.

You will need to check the element settings for the perf on your Modx since they may be different.

Anyway, as far as I understand now the Quick Edit "Attack" will effectively only control the offset.

Yes - and only the time - not the initial level or the attack level.

That's strange though, since I could use it on the default CFX acoustic piano to control the Attack time (attack works the same as a fade in here, as I would expect).

Yes - but how it works is dependent on the actual parameter values it is working with to offset. For the elements I showed above it won't have any effect at all if the initial level is already 127 since it can't go any higher no matter what the offset is.

It also works identically on all blue coloured distorted guitar synths (the ones at the very top in category search).

What's so special about the blue coloured samples that Quick Edit / Attack knob works here to adjust the attack time?

The only thing 'special' about the color is the number of parts in the performance. Green is for single part performances that are designed to be used as a single part - either by themselves or by adding that single part to your own performance.

Blue is for performances with more than one part. Those performances can, and often do, have parts that will NOT work properly by themselves. That is, some parts are designed to work together with the other parts in the 'blue' performance. If you copy that one part to your own performance it may not appear to do anything at all because it won't have the other parts it needs to work with.

I get that each element having a different amplitude ADSR curve may complicate matters a bit for the Quick Edit screen.

It can complicate it quite a bit for ADSR because the common level quick screen parameters is applying the same offset to ALL parts and ALL of their elements. So unless those elements and parts are designed specifically to be controlled from the top level it isn't going to work as you expect.

But still, I have trouble imagining having to adjust all 8 elements (at worst, for e.g. CFX piano) is the "intended way" by Yamaha. Like, even in FL Studio you can just adjust attack by a simple knob for each sample.

Ok - but on the Modx each 'sample' is an element. And there are SEVEN of those in the one part in the Hard Drive performance. And on the Modx you can also 'adjust attack by a simple knob for each sample' by doing it on the Element Edit screen.

But on the Quick Edit screen you are doing it for ALL of the elements at the same time. And, for the element values I showed earlier, that isn't going to do much of anything for most of those elements.

I read somewhere in the manual you at least can copy paste curves from one element to another, but this requires pressing some physical buttons and cannot be carried out solely through the touch screen? Is there no easier way to do that?

No - there is no way to copy ADSR envelopes at all. The best you can do is copy one element to another element. That copies the entire element and not just parts of it.

Also, there's another major issue that I ponder sending the MODX back for – it's the fact I cannot adjust screen brightness on the MODX. Afaik this cannot be solved by a firmware update since Yamaha cheaped out on the transistors / electric components that makes any sort of PWM dimming impossible.

Brightness can't be adjusted on any of: Modx, Modx+, Montage, Montage M. And all the reports I have seen say that the films available interfere with the touch screen sensitivity.

On a real guitar to create a slow attack sound you roll the volume knob as you pluck the strings.   Like the beginning of Alex Lifeson's solo on La Villa Strangiato (Rush).

You'd start with the volume knob at 0, pluck the note then roll the volume after the attack has already happened.  Which is fast (the guitar's intrinsic attack).   

So, on the keyboard, if you have an attack time long enough and attack level at 0 then slowly raise Decay 1 to the new slow attack then this will simulate rolling the volume after the attack.

When you do this on an actual guitar all of the notes are detached since you can't do both legato and remove the attack.

So, on the keyboard, if you have an attack time long enough and attack level at 0 then slowly raise Decay 1 to the new slow attack then this will simulate rolling the volume after the attack.

And doesn't that pretty much mean that Quick Edit isn't the way to do it? Wouldn't you want to use Control Assign for this type of thing?

The elements in that performance (on the M8X anyway) are already at a high initial level so, as I alluded to above, there isn't any room to really go anywhere.

Because the Yamaha Envelopes are multi-stage,  and multi faceted, there are many ways to skin the cat for the same end result.

For example, the Decay1 Level and Decay1 Time can be used as a secondary "Attack" Stage (you'll see this a lot on Synth Brass Parts). Just because its labelled "Decay" doesn't mean it must only be used as a Decay Stage.

For a lot of Factory "Real Instrument Sample" Parts, the Designer will have set what is known as an "Organ Envelope"  in the AEG.

The purpose of the Organ Envelope is such that at "Key On",  the Sound is immediately played at Full Volume (No Attack Time, No Decay Time, Maximum Sustain Level).  

At Key Off, the sound is immediately muted (No Release Time).

This is in effect, the sound an organ makes... sound is only produced when the Key is ON.  There is no sound when the Key is OFF.  Hence the name,  but it is also known as a Gating Envelope. 

Designers were free to employ Organ Envelopes in whichever manner they saw fit, maybe adding some embellishments for effect (e.g. adding a little release time). 

In traditional ADSR envelopes, they would be achieved thus:

A = 0

D = 0

S = Max e.g. "127"

R = 0

In Yamaha Envelopes,  the Stage Levels also need to be defined.  This makes Yamaha Envelopes more complex,  but also more versatile. 

As Toby pointed out, instead of setting Attack Time as Zero, some designers decided to set Initial Level to Max, effectively skipping and negating the Attack Stage (1 way of skinning a cat).  The net result is the same as setting...

Initial Level = 0

Attack Time = 0

Attack Level = 127

versus...

initial Level = 127

Attack Time = Whatever You Want, Makes No Difference**

Attack Level = 127

or, in traditional ADSR, simply,  A = 0. 

(** Its a Shortcut.  Set Initial Level = 127, and ignore whatever value Attack Time is set to).

The benefit, or problem, depending on how you look at it, is that setting Initial Level = Max,  makes the Envelope Attack Portion "immune" to Offset Changes on the Top Panel "Attack" Control.

This is why I suggested starting with an "INIT" Preset, to start getting "a feel for it". 

In the INIT Patches, the Envelope Defaults, are set (mostly) in an "as intended" useage, including the default AEG "Organ Envelope".

In the Factory Designed Performances,  the structures are often strewn with "Designer Preferences",  which often serve only to confuse a new user trying to "Reverse Engineer" the Preset to learn. 

When encountering such difficulties, I will often start with an INIT, and start "fetching in" only the design elements I need from a Factory Preset. 

Thus, I am able to rebuild Factory Presets in a fashion that makes sense to me. 

At first, this was quite labour intensive. However,  with the experience gained, I can now eliminate "unusual to me" designer preferences quite quickly. 

To be fair,  the Preset Designers were mostly 3rd Party Veterans with lots of Yamaha experience.  Everyone has their own way of doing things. They were not obliged to create within "user friendly" norms, only to produce interesting "end results".

So beware. In Factory Presets wou will find all manner of shortcuts and "dead wood". These have no impact on the Final Sound,  or make any logical sense, but regardless need to be negotiated when trying to understand how the Preset works. 

I was suggesting editing the full AEG to achieve the desired guitar-like rolling of the volume knob.  If you wanted both "regular attack" guitar and "slow attack" guitar then I'd copy the guitar elements, change the AEG on one set and use XA to have an [ASSIGN] switch (latched) to toggle between the slow and regular attack elements.

If you wanted both "regular attack" guitar and "slow attack" guitar then I'd copy the guitar elements, change the AEG on one set and use XA to have an [ASSIGN] switch (latched) to toggle between the slow and regular attack elements.

I think I follow that. Sounds like a good idea since you likely only want an occasional use of one or the other. And on the M elements come pretty cheap compared to having to copy parts.

This is a MODX7 (not M) but the suggestion remains.

If for the starting guitar (Hard Drive or other) doesn't have enough free elements then I'd copy the Part and apply the same XA control suggestion.

To be honest,  you don't need a second set of Elements to execute this with an Assign Switch.

To OP,  I'd suggest doing the following to the Guitar Elements in "Hard Drive".

1) Change the AEG for each Element to the following "Gating Envelope"

Initial Level = 0

Attack Time = 1 (or something small see N4)

Attack Level = 127

Decay1 Time = 0 (see N1)

Decay1 Level = 127 (See N1)

Decay2 Time = 0 (See N2)

Decay2 Level = 127 (See N3)

Release Time = 0 (or some small value)

N1 - Decay1 is the extra "Stage". Setting these values eliminates its influence, for a more traditional "ADSR" approach.

N2 - Decay2 Time is the defacto Decay Time "D" in ADSR

N3 - Decay2 Level is the defacto Sustain Level "S" in ADSR. 

N4 - Setting a small value to Attack Time removes any audible "Clicking" or "Popping" artifacts at the start of each note. This may or may not be present. If it is not present, you can set Attack Time = 0. 

2) In the Control Assign System, assign "Assign Switch 1" to destination "Element AEG Attack Time".  Set it as Unipolar, Positive, Linear.  Adjust the Ratio until the Assign Switch "ON" is providing the correct amount of "bowing" to the Front of each note. 

3) Test it. Make adjustments to the "Assign Switch"  Control Assign Ratio where necessary,  but there is no need to adjust the Envelope Parameters. 

Note: Be careful of "Portamento" and/or "Legato" settings in the Part.  These can alter or override Envelope behaviour. Ideally these should be switched off until such a point as you know they are required for effect.