@HSL are you outside the timeframe for a full refund option of your purchase?

Until there is a fix (if ever) - is there anything that can be done in the meantime?

What's sending the CC120? Does it have to do this (or can they be removed/filtered)? Is this something embedded in the MIDI files downloaded - or is this sent from a physical device?

Until there is a fix (if ever) - is there anything that can be done in the meantime?

What's sending the CC120? Does it have to do this (or can they be removed/filtered)? Is this something embedded in the MIDI files downloaded - or is this sent from a physical device?

Jason, Andrew,

as I already said in a previous post:

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The PC will send midi data on all the 16 midi channels allowed by the spec (since it needs 16 different parts at the same time), and will also include CC120 (as allowed by the spec) on possibly any of the 16 midi channels as needed. The need to send CC120 is to stop sound tails before changing a DSP setting, and/or the channel volume (or pan) so that it does not pick up and affect past dead notes (who are still producing sound in their "release" ADSR envelope), but only the new ones your are going to play afterwards. This is a perfectly legitimate use of CC120, and also the only way to achieve the effect.
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CC120 is sent on purpose to achieve the effect of immediately stopping the sound for a part (any of the 16 allowed). So there is no workaround.

My MODX is still under the legal warranty, so, if despite advertising a functionality, it does not honor the specification (it does not even have to be explicitly written, as it is the case here, it is also enough to be a "reasonable" use the user might expect from the product) then it is technically "not conformant" and must be "repaired" under warranty.
If it cannot be repaired (or it is too costly) then alternatively:

1) It has to be substituted with a brand new replacement (same, or better model). This is not applicable here, since all the MODXs (and probably Montages as well) have the problem as soon as they leave the production line (firmware bug).
2) The consumer must receive a full refund and return the broken/not conformant product.
3) The consumer may accept (= if he agrees) a price reduction and keep the faulty product.

These obligations are due by the dealer (seller). But if the product is already defective when delivered by the manufacturer (as this is the case here) the seller has still to honor the contract with the consumer but he has the right to transfer the liabilities to the manufacturer (i.e.: he can ask the manufacturer the full price that has been reimbursed to the consumer).

This is what the Law says in EU (European Union) countries. But I imagine every civilized country in the world has a similar law for consumer protection.

I understand the theory here - but I'm wondering what specific configuration sends the CC120 and if there is a way to sidestep this. First for you and your short-term goals before there is a fix (if ever) and secondly to learn what configurations would have this issue so that myself and others can more easily identify this issue.

Just a made up hypothetical - say there's some software like bitwig and pretend like, by default, it is configured to periodically send CC120 back to the keyboard. It would be useful to know that it is this part of the configuration that is root cause of the problem and that the workaround is to go into some configuration menu in bitwig (in this pretend example) and turn off this feature. That would be helpful more specific information to know.

Presumably you are facing a problem of having CC120 messages sent by something (not just the science experiment of inducing the issue by brute force). I'm interested in what piece of your setup is introducing this problem.

I completely understand the value of science experiments. I think it's good to generate a test that has 100% repeatability through a brute force method. I'm just trying to focus on identifying the original problem and what part of the setup sends the CC120 actually. VSTi? Which one? DAW? What flavor? Other plugin? etc ... That's helpful detail.

Meanwhile I (still) think it's worthwhile for Yamaha to characterize this behavior and explain the detail which supports spec adherence (which I see a strong case for) or spec violation. Even with spec adherence there are annoying things that can happen like, for example, valid aftertouch messages hosing up the system due to an overflow of some sort. It's not a direct analogy but just saying even adhering to the spec can cause usage problems under certain specific conditions.

Jason, I suspect HSL is only going to be satisfied by a significant option 3 discount, or option 2 (full refund) and that that's been the intent from the get-go, hence my question about the return time frame and HSL's disinterest in work arounds and concessions.

HSL, you're probably right, and this is by no means the only inference or implied capacity of the MODX/Montage line that's borderline.

If we're being practical, you're probably better off taking advantage of the second hand market's current state and selling it if this issue is really troubling your endeavours.

Any long winded effort to get a full refund might work if you have public sway of some sort. - that is huge. Otherwise, you're up against Yamaha. They make vehicles for end consumers and engines for third parties - things that move across time and space, and can lead to injury and death. If you think they're not experienced in legalities of liabilities and obligations, you've picked the wrong musical instrument brand to battle.

A discount would be likely provided by your retailer, which it sounds as though has already happened, and that you might be the dealer struggling to get reimbursed by Yamaha. If that's the case, then good for you in honouring the customer's right to get what they thought they were getting, and refunding them when they didn't, and all the best of luck with Yamaha.

There is a more general case for misrepresentation, I think, in terms of the 16 parts, that Fernando brings up for fun, somewhere around here.

These things are inherently underpowered, I think, and that's the reason for the slow touchscreen and lack of note editing sequencer-like functionality for all manner of things. And the highly constrained shapes of motion sequencing and envelopes, too.

If that's the case then as a community we may miss out on the valuable feedback of exactly what "real world" software/hardware/etc. can induce this problem. That's where my primary interest given I haven't run into this yet - it may help say influence a decision between this or that software or hardware since there are so many equivalents out there that are similarly classed but may either have a fatal flaw you can't turn off (not sure) or just the need for a reminder to configure around this particular issue.

I'm perfectly OK with whatever decision is made ultimately - we all have our tolerances. The Montage 8 was too heavy for me so that sent it back to the dealer. CC120 response is as fair as any - we've all got our cut-lines. I'd like to capture the information if there is any to gather.

In modern music, there's a raft of situations where this would be a problem, especially if you're using your DAW and MODX/Montage as a sequencer and sound source to play along with on the keyboard, and record this at the same time.

This is almost exactly how my daughter uses her combo, but she's nowhere near hitting the part and polyphony limits.

So I can see what HSL is getting at, and understand the odd choice of 0 velocity for note off from Yamaha's perspective, and the issues with MIDI's inherent simplicity as a signal.

It always stuns me that we're not far past (in terms of structural issues with MIDI and DAWs and external instruments) the approaches of the 90's.

Jason,

I use the MODX with a self developed C++ program that listens to MODX 1 output port for user played notes + computer UI for user input, and then generates midi sequences (sourcing from a database + some on the fly adjustments based on user interaction). The midi sequences are sent to MODX 1 input port to be translated into audio. CC120 is needed as I already explained in previous post.

To say it all, while developing this program I have found MANY bugs that I could sidestep with some workarounds. But this is HUGE and cannot be avoided. Honestly, in 30 years of career I have never seen an instrument so plagued with bugs.

Andrew,

I do not want a full refund or a discount. My plan A is to have the bug corrected. I paid my MODX 1000€, and if I count the work-hours spent to identify this bug alone (not counting the many others I have previously found) I have already spent MUCH MORE than that money.

Money that should have been spent by Yamaha to release a reasonably bug-free product.

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What really makes me think about this issue is the total SILENCE of Yamaha. In this forum we have a person -- Bad Mister -- that carries the "Yamaha" badge. He usually makes thousands words long posts (even when a shorter answer would be much more appropriate) but this time he says nothing. Not even "We are sorry". Which is not enough, but at least to start with, it would be better than nothing.

This is not the right attitude for a company. And says a lot about their business practice.

And if the company is big and a market leader, then this is even worse. Trying to escape their own responsibility towards the paying customers simply by ignoring them is stupid and would not bring them much far.

Especially in an international forum (or a facebook group) where thousands of potential customers worldwide will immediately see how the business is carried on and will judge accordingly with their future purchase decisions.

Very short sighted policy!!

A serious company would promptly apologize for the inconvenience and propose a solution with a clear and short time frame. At least this is how I was taught to carry on a business, but I am pretty old school ...

HSL, my apologies. I misinterpreted your writerly way as someone prepping for a legal approach, a disgruntled retail partner, I wrongly presumed. SORRY!

My new assumption (yes, I'm an ass) is that you're probably a German programmer. And I'm truly sorry you're experiencing this much grief with this product.

Don't doubt your claims about bugs. I've seen my fair share of weirdness with the MODX, and I'm barely pushing it.

And fully know the pain of time and torture that is programming against a coalface of bugs: I use Unity.

Commiserations!

After more thought and more analysis and more thought... my deepest commiserations.

I've dug a little deeper into parts of the MODX and Montage that I don't use much (daughter uses these parts a lot) to find that there's a myriad of issues with claims vs reality, and that much of the discourse around this was during 2016/17 and the Montage.

I had a moderate disdain for the Montage (I had one years ago for a few months and poked at the FM animation) due to not thinking it was worth anywhere near what it was being sold for. The MODX I considered perfect for daughter, so got her one. Sometimes I twinkle too long with the FM-X engine, making animated stuff, and finding ever more issues with the ways the envelopes and motion lanes can and can't control and/or be relied upon to do that control in a timely manner.

These are experiments, and not fundamental to the reason we have one here. It's primarily an 8 part keyboard with an 8 part VST for daughter and her composition endeavours, despite originally thinking it was a 16 part instrument...

Fool me once.

I've since learnt to do some basic DSP, and been doing increasing amounts of AM and FM sound design with low level code within Unity - which I bring up for one particular commiseration: the naive presumption is that Unity is the best, most popular game engine in the world, from a company of good standing and reputable in manner. If you were to believe this, you might spend a couple of years further from where my DSP experiments have led to making something for sound for Unity and its users.

This would be a mistake. The general view of those serious about making games is that Unity is their editor, most everything else they do is done custom to their requirements, and they're not at all interested in 3rd party plugins or feature add-ons for the core engine, as they no longer use anything other than their highly customised branches, most often based on very old versions of Unity.

Yamaha seems to be somewhat akin to this, in that the initial impression most get of the company is that they're the stalwart incumbent of the musical hardware business, and make good faith, best effort endeavours with their leading products, and therefore can be relied upon in all manner of ways for all sorts of community and product stability and consideration.

Sadly, that's not true.

We're living through the golden age of neo-analogue and the height of software sound plugins. Sadly, DAWs are a complete pain in the arse and miles off the pace.

If you can, I'd consider what it will take to port your endeavours to targeting a PC/Mac as the sound engine, via plugins and a MIDI controller for live play. You'll get really real polyphony AND really real control as you want it.

Yamaha aren't going to fix your issue, nor anything much else. They're busy figuring out how to survive in a new economic era where there's almost no market for live musical instruments, their primary sources of income.

While submitting a Titlebuy research paper as a college application is exciting, it also requires a lot of time, effort, and study. This type of essay necessitates a lot of concentration and time. A well-written college essay has the ability to leave a lasting impression on the institution admissions committee to which you wish to apply.

It seems this unresolved thread has been resurrected by mistake, by Mark.

Anyway, I didn't know that when I first started reading it.

I spent most of my working life as a 3rd Line Technical Support and later, Technical Consultant, for very large Global Corporations in Telecommunications.

Reading the fault Case History thoroughly, is important, but to save anyone else the time-to-read, this "fault" would have been closed off as:-

"Reported Fault arises through use of non-supported, 3rd Party Proprietary Software. Customer was advised to use only Supported Applications, or otherwise prove fault exists in Supported Applications. No Fault Found in Yamaha product, product behaving as per design intent".

The evidential corollary would be:-

"Customer advised that he sees the problem when using a self-developed C++ Application. Yamaha advised customer of inappropriate use of CC120 MIDI message in unsupported, 3rd Party Proprietary Software".

Summarising, CC120 is a Global Instruction to the MODX Tone Generator to STOP ALL SOUNDS. In this case the MODX was behaving as expected and STOPPED ALL SOUNDS.

The Customers intent was to curtail any previously played but still sustaining notes, either due to long ADSR Release or due to any current Delay or Reverb tails. In this case, CC120 is an inappropriate mechanism to achieve this result. As a 3rd Party software developer, it is his responsibillity to research appropriate methods to achieve his required goals. I recommend that the customer makes a formal request to Yamaha for technical support, to aid the development of proprietary software.

This sad story finally came to an end.

I officially asked the seller (big shop) to honor the legal warranty and either:

1) Repair the MODX
2) Refund 100% of the money paid and take back the faulty unit

He tried to obtain assistance from Yamaha with the usual way (anybody can have access to): webform on European support site. I already did it, and the result was the same: NO ANSWER. Actually the answer was to "contact an authorized support center". They forgot to mention where is the list of authorized support centers (on Yamaha site there is none), the shop (that was in the business for the last 50 years) was not aware of these support centers either. Clearly the web form site does not provide any assistance, they just copy & paste useless pre made answers even without understanding the problem reported.

The shop then asked Yamaha Italy Sales Manager (the guy they buy instruments from, and that sends invoices at the end of the month) to give an answer. The Sales Manager made me talk with a freelancer that works also for Yamaha. He claimed to be part of the Montage sound designers and to personally know the development team in Japan. I could make him consistently reproduce the problem on his MODX. Initially he tried to convince me that this behaviour is normal; then I asked him to test the same pattern on other Yamaha keyboards he had in his studio. He tried and (surprise! surprise!) ALL the other Yamaha keyboards did NOT behave so erratically (= no CC120 sent on note off). Then he had to decide if the MODX was OK, and all the other keyboards were buggy, or the other keyboards were OK and after all was the MODX buggy.
He wisely decided to minimize the damage and that, everything considered, the MODX was definitely buggy. He asked me to provide a detailed description of the bug (in English) that he will send to his comrades in Japan for a fix.

I did it the very same day, and also included a few others bugs the MODX has (there are so many that I had to be selective in order non to be too verbose). It was April, this was the last time I have heard something from Yamaha.

In May, and finally 10 days ago I contacted again the shop, asking for a full refund (under the terms of the legal warranty) since he could not provide a repair. He contacted Yamaha Italy CEO (or may be just "boss", since I doubt there are more than 5 employees in all). After some checks he replied that Yamaha Italy cannot guarantee that the bug will ever be solved.

The shop then immediately called me asking to return the keyboard and that he will provide a full refund. I have got the full refund (100% of what I paid in 2020 for the new MODX) on my bank account today. He also told me that he will have his money back from Yamaha.

* * *

My personal considerations about all this story are:

1) Yamaha assistance is NON existent. In their company there is simply no people, anywhere, paid to solve problems.
2) Montage/MODX product line is already on the sunset boulevard (= in the coffin). They probably have already abandoned the products long ago, there is no one allocated even for fixing simple bugs. They are milking as much as they can: sell as much as you can and do not even answer the customers for complaints.
3) MODX/Montage firmware is so full of bugs, and software in general to support the platform so weak/non existent, that probably they are outsourcing all development to some third world country to inexperienced teams (both in software development and also product understanding). This will also explain some fundamental errors in software design (and gratuitous limitations) that plague the Montage/MODX.
4) Yamaha? Never again!!

@HSL..... whether your MODX was buggy or not, I have no idea.

However, your observations regarding technical support do ring true.

Unfortunately it is not just Yamaha. The same can be said of any large, global corporate firm these days.

Sometime in the late 90's, the God of Profit, that is the Harvard Business School, deemed Engineers to be a "Necessary Evil". To wit, Engineer Salaries are a heavy burden on Profit Margins, and rarely add value, therefore companies should strive to employ "Technical People" only on a "Per Project" basis.

I, we, are no longer "Engineers". We are "Project Engineers". Cast to the wind and the fortunes of chance, we are professional "vagabonds" in the Sea of Commerce. The world is entirely run by "Business People" who's only motivation is Profit... and by implication, Greed. They have no clue about anything "techy".

Your hope for support was futile, it was never there, nor will it likely be in the near future. Lip Service is a cheap operational cost. They train minimum wage monkeys to do it 24x7. They're called "Call Centre Monkeys". And even the Monkey's will soon be out of a job, as the Robots/AI aka "intelligent answering machines" take over.

When the world comes crashing down, then we'll be hired, again, on a 3 month Probation, 6 month rolling contract.

LOL.

I used to work for NEC.... amongst others. Complain all you like... nobody is listening. Nobody Cares. I mean that empathetically, sympathetically, and sincerely. We live in the world of Trumps and Putins.

BTW.... rumour has it the MODX is discontinued. You might want to keep hold of it and find a workaround, because whatever you think you'll buy next (likely on 18 month back order) probably won't be any better.