I know this pain!

Not least, my eyes! Exhausted from looking at that overly bright, un-dimmable bloody screen!!

You'll need both MIDI Learn _and_ Sysex Learn -- and here's the bad news... many things in MODX/Montage aren't sending or receiving either of these.

I think Jason knows a lot about this, most of what's possible to know.

Of those that can help:

At the top end, with MIDI and Sysex "Learn", and multi-mode operation, and generally amazingly wonderful:

https://electra.one/

An alternative you might be able to pick up second hand for a reasonable price, that is the "extra panel of sliders and knobs" approach:

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0245

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EDIT: Should add: with any software on a PC that can do Sysex and MIDI routing, ANY kind of controller (including another synth) can be used as a "Learning" controller for MODX/Montage.

And there's Lemur on iPad and other Controller-like apps for the iPad that can do this sort of thing. Although tedious. None of them have got this to "just work".

If you want to suffer the indignity of being a Yamaha user, search for the Modal Argon and Cobalt apps... and wonder aloud why Yamaha hasn't done something similar.

Operator level is already quickly dialed in using the sliders. That was a good idea to use the 8 sliders as data entry one per op. This could be extended (hypothetically) but is not as visual as the editor you're referring to which brings many more parameters out to a 1:1 type interface.

Anything with knobs that map to CC or Sysex you could feed into Ctrlr(.org) and then a script to send the Sysex back to MODX and fancy front end ("panel" ) to help the visualization. So anything with 8 knobs and maybe a few more controls (like a cheap MIDI keyboard) could be used as the hardware interface along with clicking on the "panel" to make the knobs apply to different areas. You could realize the DX7 hardware (style) editor this way.

Jason & Andrew, thanks for the quick response.

The problem does seem to be MIDI compatability... at least this is what I understand from your replies.

I would most definitely prefer a directly plugged in controller (USB preferable, but could also stretch to MIDI cables). I don't like the idea of having to go through a PC/MAC "Translator".

Immediately apparent... does the MODX allow for direct MIDI access/control to its FM-X parameters? Or would you have to set up internal Control Assigns and then have the external MIDI Device just control the Assign Knobs?

(Also, if I remember correctly, the MODX Sliders can not be controlled via external MIDI?)

@Jason...

the main reason I was thinking external hardware MIDI Controller is because the MODX has only 4 Sliders, 4 Knobs.

What frequently happens is you forget to switch from 1-4 to 5-8 and vice versa. So, while you think you are editing Op7 for example, you are in fact editing Op3. Therefore, while you are "listening" for the resultant effect of changing Op7, the effect you are actually hearing is the change of Op3. Moreover, if you have already carefully edited Op3 to your liking, confusion arises further down the track to find Op3 has different values than you recall entering, and, you can no longer remember how you set Op3 to begin with.

To overcome this I have got into the time wasting habit of saving the Performance with an incremented Version Number each time I make a parameter change... talk about tedious.

My reasoning was that an "8 Lane" controller would help visualise where everything is actually set, and without having to keep checking back to the MODX Home screen.

Plus, it could double up as a general Synth controller.... Draw Bars, ADSR, LFO Rate & Depth etc.

I hasten to add... this is not a whinge about the MODX, I am very happy Yamaha sought to include so much.

This is just a case of personal preferences, perhaps accomodated with potential 3rd party solutions.

The computer in my suggestion is a way to shave a lot of money off the solution. For off-the-shelf, you've got to find something that is fluent in flexible Sysex in order to target everything and a reasonable interface to set what the knobs do (the knobs on this external gear).

I wouldn't route through assignables. I'd use direct Sysex manipulation. This is the "right" way to do it since you can reach everything directly.

@Jason...

the main reason I was thinking external hardware MIDI Controller is because the MODX has only 4 Sliders, 4 Knobs.

What frequently happens is you forget to switch from 1-4 to 5-8 and vice versa. So, while you think you are editing Op7 for example, you are in fact editing Op3. Therefore, while you are "listening" for the resultant effect of changing Op7, the effect you are actually hearing is the change of Op3. Moreover, if you have already carefully edited Op3 to your liking, confusion arises further down the track to find Op3 has different values than you recall entering, and, you can no longer remember how you set Op3 to begin with.

To overcome this I have got into the time wasting habit of saving the Performance with an incremented Version Number each time I make a parameter change... talk about tedious.

My reasoning was that an "8 Lane" controller would help visualise where everything is actually set, and without having to keep checking back to the MODX Home screen.

Plus, it could double up as a general Synth controller.... Draw Bars, ADSR, LFO Rate & Depth etc.

I hasten to add... this is not a whinge about the MODX, I am very happy Yamaha sought to include so much.

This is just one of the many reasons an UNDO operation, with history, is necessary for creative, explorative sound design, motion design and the integration of the two. And should be. Not a whinge, just a statement of fact. Recall is not Undo, and only exists because of the completely insane ways the Category button "works". Don't be misled, this lack of Undo is indicative.

It's legit to complain about these things. Greatness is not an enemy of good - especially once "good enough" has already been achieved and shipped.

The MODX is good, and it's somewhere near 80% of the way to being great. That last 20% is, sadly, unlikely to happen. Especially because IdeaScale exists to hide the deficits between good and great.

The computer in my suggestion is a way to shave a lot of money off the solution. For off-the-shelf, you've got to find something that is fluent in flexible Sysex in order to target everything and a reasonable interface to set what the knobs do (the knobs on this external gear).

I wouldn't route through assignables. I'd use direct Sysex manipulation. This is the "right" way to do it since you can reach everything directly.

I appreciate your ideas. I'm certainly not trying to scorn them. You make me realise its probably more difficult/fussy than I first anticipated.

SysEx. How is that fed to the MODX? Via USB no MIDI... (like the old I/O data "user console" bus). Via USB MIDI? Via MIDI IN (5 Pin DIN) ? Does the MODX need to be configured to recognise and accept SysEx?

Can the MODX Send SysEx to the Controller, such that the controller can display current settings? I notice some Controllers have Value Indicator LEDS, or even motorized Sliders (Behringer XTouch for example).

@Andrew... I see the Behringer BCR2000 is long since discontinued, much to the annoyance of many would be purchasers in Behringer's Review comments.

I also note a heck of a lot of controllers are currently "Not In Stock", with no listed $RRP.... global supply shortage I guess?

One of the ones that caught my attention was the Livid DS1... but I'm not even sure they are still in business.

I had a look at the Ctrlr.org site. Could this be used on an iPad connected directly to the MODX? This might be the most easily reached solution, especially if you can make your own GUI. I have some programmimg knowledge, but its not my day job. Is it fairly accessible or do you need a Masters in C++ & XML?

Antony, yes the BCR2000 long discontinued, but often available second hand. Hence my comment, and knowledge of it, as it's a popular controller, precisely because it's good at control, and good at learning.

Let me know which way you're leaning, in terms of controller, and maybe we should argue back and forth, because I'm strongly thinking of getting one for very similar reasons to your own, and it would be better (I think) if we both had the same one, and could each figure out and create different means of making it better (coding/scripting connectivity etc).

The choice that has to be made is as Jason paints it on one hand (use a computer as the middle man) or find controllers that can learn Sysex and MIDI... as some of the controls we'll want to get at require Sysex. Many of the most useful, in fact, are only Sysex. Again, Jason knows this list much better than I do.

Similar to you, ideally, I don't want a computer playing man-in-the-middle. I'd like something I can plug in and put on that bit of space to the right and just twiddle away with, as I get ever more into sound design.

I have some programmimg knowledge, but its not my day job. Is it fairly accessible or do you need a Masters in C++ & XML?

Few thoughts:

• one device I'm looking at (not necassarily for the MODX, but if I'd have it, I'd try to do what you want to do as well) is the Studiologic Mixface SL. It's small, the CC's are programmable, has the right number of sliders and buttons and the price is OK.
• John Melas Performance Editor is quite nice. Might want to check it (doesn't answer your question, but it is an approach worth mentioning);
• the BEST companion software for the MODX, IMO, is Loomer Architect. There is a learning curve, but the possibilities are infinite. The fact that you do have some programming/tech abilities will help. It can do everything, from the most elaborate sequencing you can imagine, to having a control panel for the MODX, to live triggering of patterns etc. Check the quick start guide pdf at the link above. Also, an exchange I had with the dev on their support forum regarding this workflow https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=572629 . And here's an example of an editor for a complex synth done in Architect: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=568331

To elaborate on the above a bit, I'm pretty sure it would be possible to have Mixface SL fed into Architect, have it's CC info processed and translated into the required SysEx on the fly and transferred to the MODX.
Of course, all this would require a lot of experimentation, but I'm sure it's doable.

After looking at this a bit, the best option might be if we work together to build an Arduino "Bypass Controller" that connects to MODX/Montage on one side, and passes through to ANY controller on the other, and has a button that says "learn".

Press that "learn" button, then move something on MODX/Montage through its entire range - "Bypass Controller" acknowledges this, then awaits a corresponding knob/slider/button on the Controller, activated through its full range, and then "learns" that anything from the controller means "send to that other thing on the MODX", scaled based on the range on one to the range on the other.

Some kind of facility required to edit mappings.

My programming "skillz" aren't great, not even very good, and I hate doing it, but if I must, I've done:

Years (decades?) of Objective-C, Swift, C#/Java

- a bit of DSP and controller stuff in C and lower

- Lua & JavaScript :: self confessed lover of Lua

-- Pros: very good at reading and discerning APIs and their writer's intentions and limitations

-- Cons: full-time crumpy gunt

A web forum discussion about Architect, with mentions of SysEx editing for the Yamaha FS1R:
https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=15735706&postcount=2

I'm not sure where Ctrlr is today - but last I created Ctrlr based MIDI "widgets" (that's my term, not theirs) - the scripting was done in Lua. At least to prototype it provides a quick environment to iron things out. Ctrlr doesn't support iOS devices.

Myself, I would tend to roll the hardware myself since that's my expertise. That would be more than most would stand. But certainly the most flexible and possibly a lower overall cost depending on the amount of finish you're after.

Sysex would be targeted to MODX through MIDI and would need to either be connected to the active MIDI bus (there are two modes: USB and MIDI - so connected to whichever is currently selected) or connected to the 5-pin DIN MIDI bus while the bus is set to USB and then a USB-connected device (computer, tablet, etc) would need to echo back port 3 to port 1 ("connecting" the external 5-pin DIN device to the internal MODX MIDI bus).