How can an attack time of 78 be at all useful in that Marimba sound I discussed that will surely come and go before the attack gets anywhere near 78?

That is what I am trying to understand.

Attack Time is 98, Attack Level is 78 or am I reading your post incorrectly?

Op3 Attack Time is fairly fast (transient). An Attack Time of 78 would, indeed, be fairly non-useful in the case of a percussive instrument like mallets on a marimba. But Attack Time is 98!

It is the Attack Level that has been lowered by the programmer to 78 (this makes it difficult for those not knowing what to listen for to hear its contribution). That’s why I had you defeat Velocity, and increase Attack Level to exaggerate it for your ears.

I recommend you increase the Attack Level
Identify what it is contributing to the sound
Then lower it to the amount that sounds right to your ears!
It is (again) adding a roughness (FM’ers refer to it as “stuff”).

Attack Time is 98, Attack Level is 78 or am I reading your post incorrectly?

Those are for the FM Marimba perfo Jason said he was using. My other thread, and most of this one, refers to the DX7#1A:22 MARIMBA performance in the "DX7 Rom 1-4.X8L" library file provided by Yamaha as a free download.

This is what I posted in the other thread and the top of this one:

Teaser: here are the envelope parameters for the op 3 modulator:

Attack Decay1 Decay2 Release
Time 95 35 42 98
Level 78 78 0 0

So I don't understand what you just said at all

Op3 Attack Time is fairly fast (transient). An Attack Time of 78 would, indeed, be fairly non-useful in the case of a percussive instrument like mallets on a marimba. But Attack Time is 98!

My understanding is that, on the Modx, the larger the (attack) time value the longer it takes to reach peak attack level. When you increase the value the graph shifts to the right AWAY from the initial KEY ON point.

And you say that 78 would be non-useful but 78 is FASTER than the 95 value so I don't understand what you say.

How can op3 Attack Time be 'fairly fast (transient) at a value of 95 which is what the Modx version of the DX7 MARIMBA performance has? On the DX7 a RATE value of 95 or 98 would be fast but the DX7 uses 'rate' and not 'time' and the manual says this on page 15:

A 0 setting produces the longest (slowestk) RATE, and a 99 setting produces the fastest RATE.

So on the DX7 to be transient the value has to be high and on the Modx the value has to be low.

Since the value for op 3 time on the Modx library version of the DX7 MARIMBA performance is 95 I have to assume
that the original DX7 value was 4 since a 99 on the DX7 (fastest) is 0 on the DX7 (fastest).

One of us is confused - I just hope it isn't me.

I would expect the op 3 envelope attack to be transient which is why the high value of 95 surprised me. As I said in the other thread when I copied op 3 to an op 1 carrier that 95 value caused it to take several seconds before ANY sound was heard - that isn't a transient.

Do yourself a favor and don't try to figure out anything in that ZIP file. I don't know how those were created - but they're not right. The times aren't right. I was looking for a patch sheet of ROM-1 A #22 MARIMBA but couldn't find one to see if the levels and times are the exact same as the DX7 or somehow translated.

The FM Converter which is one way to produce these has limitations.

"FM Marimba" is the same exact patch but is correct where that library's Marimba is not correct.

Listen to https://www.synthmania.com/Yamaha%20DX7/Audio/INT/INT22%20MARIMBA.mp3

This is a recording of the DX7 playing this ROM sound -- so it's the right representation of what it should sound like. Try to play the same notes using the DISK1-4 zip file library. Doesn't sound the same. Now play "FM Marimba" and notice that sounds the same.

The "FM Marimba" and ROM-1 A #22 MARIMBA are the same thing. Same algorithm, same OP usage. The difference is in the times for sure. The library file has longer times than what's in "FM Marimba".

If I knew the FM Converter always did this kind of thing then I would use the differences between the wrong library MARIMBA and FM Marimba in order to calculate how the times should all be adjusted from the FM Converter. I don't know that the FM Converter made this or not but you can find the SYX files for the same ROM and make your own FM Converter version and see if it's the same or different (better). If it's the same - then this is all FM Converter's "fault" and someone forgot to carry a 1 or some such thing.

Trying to understand a screwed up translation of a DX ROM sound is going to be a losing battle.

Do yourself a favor and don't try to figure out anything in that ZIP file.

Yep - something funny is going on with those contents. But the 1A stuff seems to be the same as the SysEx download here
https://yamahablackboxes.com/collection/yamaha-dx7-synthesizer/patches/

Notice there is a ROM3A 07 MARIMBA. When I download and load that one the parms for op 3 are

0 20 40 98
78 78 0 0

The attack is zero and you get a quick hit like you would expect.

My bad luck that I just happened to pick a DUD to dive into. I had no particular reason to pick that Marimba sound - it just sounded like it would be a simple one to start with.

On the plus side I was able to recognize pretty quick that something was wrong and that is definitely a good thing.

Assuming you had images of the envelopes for op3, op4, op5 and op6 laid out in front of you I still don't see how you map one envelope to each of the others in terms of timing.

The IDEAL would be to show the time as a bright dot on the graph so you could see how it moves on each envelope at the same time. Not gonna hold my breath on that one.

Thanks for taking the time to try to sort this out. I knew I was confused but when the whole thing confused both you and Bad Mister it meant something, somewhere was seriously wrong. Turns out we were probably all looking at different versions.

I downloaded the ROM 1A SYX from somewhere and used FM Converter and got the same broken Marimba. That said, when I look at the original SYX file imported to DEXED - DEXED ends up having similar timing as the broken Marimba on the MODX/Montage from the FM converter. I think they're both wrong -- but I don't have an original DX7 to isolate the OPS (just 6 in the DX7 -- and different numbering). When I used DEXED to isolate things, everything "acts" like the FM Converted (bad, IMO) data on MODX/Montage. On DEXED you could watch each stage of the envelope happen. It doesn't animate the marker between start and end of each phase (which would be cool) - but you can visually see how long it takes to get from the start to end of each (attack, decays, release). And this would be cool if I knew it was representative (in its sound output) to what the same patch on a DX7 would sound like. I have my doubts although the DEXED Marimba sounded better than the FM Converted one. There can be a lot of reasons for this -- apples and okra.

So go back and rewind taking a look at the "FM Marimba" which is a better representation of this sound in the MODX/Montage FM-X era. The comments I made were all about it and should make more sense if we're on the same page.

I think they're both wrong -- but I don't have an original DX7 to isolate the OPS

My final thought is that the first MARIMBA is one of the first sounds they created and the later version fixes the problem.

Because it was on a ROM cartridge you can't really 'fix' anything - you have to create a new one.

There are a couple of interviews they did with Gary Leuenberger and Dave Bristow where they talk about being under heavy pressure to increase the number of voices for the DX7 programming they did.

Dave says that he and Gary were initially ask to do 32 sounds and they had done those expecting to be able to tweak them when they got to Japan. But then at the last minute Yamaha told them they wanted 128. So they did the rest of the sounds in only a few days.

Odds are good that they never got the chance to 'tweak' those first 32 and MARIMBA just happens to be one of those.

The one with Gary was a Behind the Synth done by Yamaha
https://www.yamahasynth.com/learn/behind-the-synth/behind-the-synth-gary-luenberger-synth-chat

This is the 'Dave Bristow: Programming the first DX7 Presets' at the 2 minute mark where he discusses this time crunch.
https://youtu.be/JVsV6wAB5Gg?t=131

I talked to Dave last week and he offered to help with any questions or issues I run into so I will mention this next time with him and see if it was he or Gary that did the Marimba sounds.