Synth Forum

Notifications
Clear all

Key Doubling/Repeating

11 Posts
3 Users
0 Reactions
3,649 Views
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

I am trying to setup a doubling, repeating or pulsing note for an individual part in a performance on my MODX. I would like to have the ability (for example) to control the pulsing to result in 2 eighth notes or 4 sixteenth notes sound when I press the key for one quarter note, and/or have the sound continue to pulse on that same basis if I continue to hold the key down. I have not found a method for this in any of the manuals or online resources, and I have tried to experiment with LFO settings, but changes to the LFO parameters do not seem to have any impact at all. For reference, I am seeking this to create several different types of sounds on this principal - like holding down a key and creating a banjo strumming sound, simply doubling up (or similar repetitive patterns) on the note which sounds each time I press the keyboard, or emulating some old school synth sound patterns (like several obvious songs by The Who).
Thanks for any guidance on this.

 
Posted : 16/03/2019 7:37 pm
Jason
Posts: 8259
Illustrious Member
 

A banjo sound has a strong attack on each repeat. Doing this with an LFO is not going to necessarily happen because you cannot easily change the "attack" sound when you open up whatever is being controlled by an LFO. It's easier to generate repeated notes without such a strong attack using amplitude modulation. The LFO needs to target amplitude if you want to do things this way. There are others - like arpeggios which can actually create multiple note attacks and accomplish something more banjo-like.

To accomplish an LFO type repeat - lets start with some sound as the basis. Recall the preset "The FM DX7 Organ". I'm picking this because it will sound "forever" as long as I hold down the keys - something which is a characteristic of most organ sounds.

1) From the home screen, touch PART 1 (the only PART), touch "Edit" when the next popup menu displays.
2) Open menu "Mod/Control" -> "2nd LFO" (accessed on left-hand side of the screen). If you do not see these, make sure the lower-left button "Common" is pressed.
3) Set "LFO Wave" to square. The default is triangle. If we used a triangle amplitude - the effect would be a crescendo/decrescendo. I want just on/off - which is what the square will accomplish.
4) There is a table of destinations. Focus on the row showing "Amplitude Modulation". Change the depth to 99. You have to know a little about the FM-X carriers to get the next step right - but this alg. it's OK to set all OPs (1-8) ratio to +7

This isn't "perfect" since the LFO does not seem to be in phase for all notes. Key on reset can help fix this. That's the basic idea of LFO as a gate.

Or you could use ARPs

Recall the same Performance (The FM DX7 Organ).

1) From the home screen, touch PART 1, touch "edit"
2) Open the "Arpeggio" -> "Common" menu. Turn on both PART and Master ARP.
3) Open the "Arpeggio" -> "Individual" menu. Touch "name" for Arp 1 - it will say "off" now. Then choose "Category Search" when the menu pops up.
4) Choose MA_Wavetable8th for 8th notes

Or you could use motion control. Recall the same Performance.

1) From the home screen, touch PART 1, touch "edit"
2) Open the "Mod/Control" -> "Control Assign" menu. Choose the source as "MS Lane 1" and destination as Part Param > Volume. Set the curve type to square, ratio -64, Param 1 as 6, Param 2 as 5. What this sets up is that when MS Lane is sending 0-63, the volume is not affected and 64 and higher the volume should be cut off (subtracted). The exact point of 64 may be off by one - but that's the general idea here.
3) Open the "Motion Seq" -> "Lane" menu. Turn Lane 1 on. Press "Edit Sequence"
4) From edit sequence: Change the pulse A type to "Square". Prm1 as 6, Prm2 as 5. This will set the pulse to keep the volume starting with default volume then half of the pulse will cut off the sound. Set the amplitude (parameter at top of screen) to 127. Move slider 1 from the bottom to the very top. This will set pulse 1 to "127". The default is 64. Next, change the cycle count to 1 (from 16). This is the "Cycle" setting just to the left of the amplitude setting.
5) Make sure the "Motion Seq" button is turned on.
6) You can go back to the "Motion Seq" -> "Lane" menu and change the speed to your taste. You can also change key on reset if you want the pulse to restart every time you strike a key.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 17/03/2019 12:42 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

The Element LFO can be used to create the effect you are after... a Sawtooth Down Wave shape... this gives you an immediate attack but allows also for a bit of decay in the Level after triggering. A Square/Pulse Wave will give you the immediate attack you’ll need but the note duration will remain at the initial volume giving an entirely different effect. Even at rapid speeds you’ll feel that difference.

For banjo like strumming or quick picking — you should try the “trill” Arpeggios. However, for The Who-type effect, a very analog rapid repeating Element LFO will sound most like their classic recordings... in the attached example... the Element LFO (Sawtooth) applied to Amplitude is used to recreate the note repeats... two different speeds are generated for Elements 1 and 2 (below D3) versus Elements 3 and 4 (above D#3)...

The Element LFO (Sawtooth) is applied to Amplitude giving shape to the resulting pulsing sound.

Extra Credit:
When looking for classic recreations of historic keyboard sounds... be it matching Waveforms, Effects, behaviors, etc., I highly recommend the programming found in the DCP (David Polich) collections. Dave is one of the longtime programmers (many of his sounds are found in the Presets of the MONTAGE/MODX and he goes as far back with Yamaha as the late 1980s/1990s) his ability to capture the essential flavor of historic/classic keyboard sounds is uncanny! I have several DCP sets as permanent resident Libraries in my personal MONTAGE and MODX.

Attachment is a zipped MODX CONNECT program...

Attached files

Baba O'Riley.X8B.zip (1.8 KB) 

 
Posted : 17/03/2019 3:57 am
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

Awesome stuff – thank you Bad Mister.
A few observations and follow-ups:
It appears the LFO method works great for FM sounds, but not AWM. I can even adjust the speed to get the level of control I was looking for on the pulse rate. If there is a way to use this approach for AWM sounds, please advise.

For the Arp method, both the eighth note and sixteenth note are also useful, and can be used on both FM & AWM, which is great. Previously, I was able to create and save my own Arps using your tutorial (thanks for that also) but is there a way to edit the parameters of the existing Arps (similar to changing the speed in the LFO method)?

The third option (MC), while complex, worked like a charm to nail the vintage synth pulse approach. I saw your second post on this – ironically, it was the Dave Polich Vintage Keys library that put me on this quest, as he nailed the sound for “Won’t Get Fooled Again” but that Performance is missing the pulsing effect, which I can now easily add in, thanks to your guidance. I am now going to move on to your MODX connect download and second post, but wanted to give you a big shout out for the fast and useful reply.

 
Posted : 17/03/2019 4:17 pm
Jason
Posts: 8259
Illustrious Member
 

Yes, MC worked best for me. I chose FM-X more for the property of the sustain more than anything else. You can use AWM2 if you want.

1) Recall "The Basics" - it's a single PART organ
2) Open menu "Mod/Control" -> "Part LFO"
3) For this sound, I don't want to ADD to the volume - just subtract. This is part of why the "ramp down" was suggested before. I wouldn't advise this as the ending. "Ramp down" does show a general pattern for what you want. You're going to want to make a user waveform with a square that never crosses past the middle line (in height). This will create an LFO that only subtracts and doesn't add. Touch "Edit User LFO" then change the ramp to "off", Cycles set to "2 Steps", touch the left-most icon (a line) which will set you with both cycles 1 and 2 with the middle-point line. Then touch cycle 2 and rotate the DATA DIAL around until it reads -64. The 1st cycle reads 0 - and this is correct. You should now have a subtract-only square waveform. Press the [EXIT] button to return to the Part LFO screen
4) The first destination reads "Level". This is fine - edit this row. Set depth to 127 and the next 8 element ratios to 127.
5) Set the "Loop" parameter to ON

Like before, you can modify the speed of the LFO to match what you want. Or change to tempo sync'd and choose 1/8, etc. Speed is absolute not caring about the tempo and tempo sync will divide your set tempo. This way you can change the tempo and the pulsing will track.

I'm choosing Part LFO here because "Level" is a destination. FM-X doesn't provide amplitude as a destination in the FM-X PART LFO so for FM-X I went to the 2nd LFO.

EDIT: If LFO was not working for you before with AWM2 - then you were missing a key ingredient. If I had to guess, I would say it would be the ratios for each element since this is the most "know your patch" type setting. It's OK to peanut butter spread all elements to 127 when we are doing "down" type waveforms that only subtract. If we went above the center-line for "The Basics" - we would be turning on features that we had set off. Like different drawbars or excessive leakage noise. However, which of these parameters you were missing is difficult to really nail down. AWM2 defaults with "Loop" OFF for this Performance - so maybe that was it. You need to turn loop on for the waveform to repeat or else it will be one-shot (through your count of cycles, then stop).

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 17/03/2019 6:10 pm
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

Jason - thanks so much for your response - I actually started programming based on your original response first and continued right into Bad Mister's response, so I missed thanking you as well. Your follow up post is right on the money for editing the AWM sounds. What I meant in the FM vs AWM comment originally is that the editing steps aren't the same between the 2 - at least in the several I have tried, the menus are different for AWM vs FM when you hit the edit menu for a performance, (like no Part 2 LFO) but your follow up post is giving me the same effect with the ease of adjusting the speed as needed for AWM sounds.

 
Posted : 17/03/2019 7:41 pm
Jason
Posts: 8259
Illustrious Member
 

I'm not too proud to get bent out of shape over something like credit. The important thing is that you get from point A to point B and have a set of tools/procedures you are happy with.

It's true that FM is different for LFOs - which I kind of wish some of the more global destinations were available in LFO1 for FM-X like AWM2. But that's where MC is probably a better overall tool since it doesn't change between FM-X or AWM2 - at least in the big picture for modulating PART volume. And I mean a better tool in that it's just easier to remember one thing than two different things. Better, in practice, really depends on much more than this. Having many ways to do the same sort of thing allows for you to juggle resources or pick a favorite or decide any other metric for choosing. I personally like having many ways to do the same thing - it's better than having zero ways to do what you want.

Some of my comments were trying to backtrack to your initial work where you attempted to get AWM2 LFOs to work on your own. It's important to bridge that gap so you can use LFOs more effectively for other AWM2 things in the future - as whatever was going wrong initially for amplitude is likely to creep up if you try to make an LFO for other parameters.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 17/03/2019 9:50 pm
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks again for all the options posted on this topic - all are very helpful. One item I ran into that I have been unable to solve:
I setup one dedicated part with an Arp to play a repeating note, and set the keyboard range on both the part and the arp to trigger the repeating note on/off when I press just the one key assigned - exactly what I needed for this case, so I just have to hit that one key to start/stop the repeating note as needed, and the rest of the keyboard is free to use for other parts. The problem is all the other keys have no effect on the Arp toggle on/off (exactly as I want) but when I touch the sustain pedal, the Arp turned off - is there a way to disengage the sustain pedal for this part or the Arp?

 
Posted : 07/02/2020 7:15 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

I setup one dedicated part with an Arp to play a repeating note, and set the keyboard range on both the part and the arp to trigger the repeating note on/off when I press just the one key assigned - exactly what I needed for this case, so I just have to hit that one key to start/stop the repeating note as needed, and the rest of the keyboard is free to use for other parts. The problem is all the other keys have no effect on the Arp toggle on/off (exactly as I want) but when I touch the sustain pedal, the Arp turned off - is there a way to disengage the sustain pedal for this part or the Arp?

If you have set the the Arp “Trigger Mode“ = “Toggle” and you set the “Arp Hold”= “On” ...

On the Part’s “Arpeggio” > “Advanced” screen set Trigger Mode = Toggle
On the Part’s “Arpeggio” > “Common” screen set Hold = On

...then pressing the Arp “Trigger Note” will start the repeating note, it will repeat until you press that Note again. It will be impervious to the action of the Sustain pedal.

 
Posted : 07/02/2020 8:59 pm
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

Hi Bad Mister-
I selected the part, pressed "Edit", then pressed "Mod/Control", then pressed "Receive SW".
I then turned off both the "Sustain" and "FS" options (the sustain pedal is plugged into the Foot Switch>Sustain port) and stored the updated settings in the performance, but the sustain pedal is still turning the Arp off when pressed.

 
Posted : 07/02/2020 9:08 pm
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

That did it - thanks much!
In my case, I did have Trigger Mode set to Toggle, but the Arp>Common>Hold was set to "Sync-Off" - changing that to "On" fixed it.

 
Posted : 07/02/2020 9:20 pm
Share:

© 2024 Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.    Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us