Now:
When the external controller plays on channel 1, I hear only part 1 (works fine as expected).
When the external controller plays on channel 3, I hear only part 3 (works fine as expected).

These are two UNTRUE statements. And likely the best clue to the cause of your issue.

You should NOT EXPECT to hear anything via MIDI IN when MIDI I/O Mode = Hybrid, Ch15... because you actually would have nothing assigned to MIDI IN Channel 1, nor do you have anything assigned to MIDI Channel 3. You say you are using “Hybrid Ch15”... if that is true, you should expect to hear NOTHING on either channels 1 or 3... those two Parts are now set to Ch15.

True statement: each Part of a MODX Performance is set so the 16 Parts have a correspondingly numbered MIDI Channel
True statement: when using MIDI I/O Mode Single or Hybrid, your KBD CTRL Parts will be addressed on the selected Channel
True statement: Hybrid Mode differs from Single Mode, in that Hybrid allows the non-KBD Ctrl Parts to continue to be addressed on their default channel (with exceptions, outlined below).

Hybrid = MIDI IN/OUT Mode. You set Parts 1 and 3 to channel 15. This means they receive and transmit on Ch15.
So therefore if you're setup properly, you should expect your MODX to be able to Receive via MIDI IN on the following Channels, respectively:
15, 2, 15, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, !, 16 — two Parts will sound when you transmit In on Channel 15... ie KBD CTRL Parts 1 + 3

The MODX has nothing assigned to Channel 1 or Channel 3. And Part 15 shows a warning: !15
When you *select* either Part 1 or 3, your keyboard will transmit Out on MIDI Channel 15.
When you select any other Part, if it has a MODX program in the slot, it will transmit Out on the correspondingly numbered Channel... means: selecting Part 2 if occupied Transmits on Channel 2, selecting Part 4 if occupied Transmits on Channel 4, selecting Part 5, if occupied Transmits on Channel 5, etc., etc. etc.

What to do:
While your Performance is active, please navigate to your [UTILITY] > “Settings” > “MIDI I/O” screen
The MIDI SIGNAL FLOW diagram should read “Hybrid Mode” in bright blue and “MIDI In - Ch 15”, “MIDI Out - Ch 15”

— if not, if you do not see your Signal Flow diagram reporting “Hybrid Mode”, then you have overridden the settings you think you have made.
The Audio and MIDI Signal Flow diagrams are dynamic and will show the current routing situation for the MODX.

The most common user error in this regard is thinking that you can use both Zone Master functions and MIDI I/O Modes Single/Hybrid... at the same time... you cannot.

Rule: You cannot activate “Zone” switches in your Performance while using “Single“ or “Hybrid“ MIDI I/O Modes. If you activate a Zone Switch in any of the current Performance Part slots, this action will override what you have setup for Hybrid. By setting a Zone Switch On, you are asking the MODX to engage multiple I/Os for this Performance.

The NO ZONE Rule or Zone Switches automatically means Multi I/O
“Single“ and “Hybrid“ I/O Modes are only activate when No Zone Switches are activated within the current Performance. Or a better way to view it: when you activate a Zone Switch within a Performance, you would do so because you want to Transmit and Receive according to the Zone Master Settings that you configure. Doing so overrides other MIDI I/O Settings for this Performance.

By definition, when set the MIDI I/O Mode = Hybrid, Ch 15 what you, literally have done is set the current KBD CTRL Parts 1 and 3 to Receive (IN) and Transmit (OUT) on Channel 15... by this action, your Performance has nothing set to Receive (In) on Channels 1 and Channels 3.

Additionally, any MODX instrument program you place in slot 15 is inactive for MIDI IN — you will notice you can play Part 15 only if you directly *select* it and you use the MODX keys to trigger it.

When setup properly selecting HYBRID and setting Channel 15 for the MODX, MIDI data arriving on 15 will NOT trigger the internal Part 15. It will trigger only the KBD CTRL (Keyboard Control) linked Parts...
If you scroll through the Hybrid Channel options, you will notice only Ch1 and CH3 appear without the exclamation mark, indicating Parts 1 and 3 are the KBD CTRL linked Channels that will respond to the selected channel...

If you have an internal Part assigned to Part slot 15, it will NOT sound via incoming MIDI, It will however sound, if you *select* it directly and you use the MODX Local Keys to play it.

Hi Bad Mister,

First of all, thank you for the very detailed answer. it is very appreciated ?

Checking the MIDI Signal Flow diagram I see “Zone Enabled” appears at the upper left corner and after I turned Zone Master to Off then the Hybrid Mode got activated and Part 1 and Part 3 responded correctly to the MIDI notes that came from channel 15. This is exactly as you explained.

Note that the Hybrid mode is documented in the Supplementary Manual (Page 59) and there was no mentioning that it is active only if no Zones are used. It is described as a totally standalone feature. This is why in my question I wrote that I expected Part 1 and Part 3 to receive MIDI notes from both their default channel and also from the Hybrid mode (this is what Hybrid means, no?).
Maybe Yamaha can consider adding this explanation to the official documentation?
A side note – I asked this question on a few other popular MODX forums but no one knew the answer.

You wrote

“… you will notice only Ch1 and CH3 appear without the exclamation mark…”.

Can you please tell on which screen exactly can I see the active MIDI channels with or without the exclamation marks? I didn’t find it.

After understanding the above, now I’m facing a new problem, here is my setup:
- The MODX serves two roles, both a master and a slave.
- Each MODX Performance sends MSB/LSB/PC once activated to the other device to set its program (using an active zone).
- The MODX can also send and receive MIDI channels using the split/layer flexibility.
- The sustain pedal is connected to the other keyboard, sending its commands (CC #64) on MIDI channel 15 and using the Hybrid mode it is controlling well what I’m manually playing on the local MODX keyboards (like as it would have connected directly).

So – on one hand I need to activate the Zones and on the other hand - make several parts respond to the same MIDI channel. Looks like a dead-end.
Is there any built in solution for that?

BTW, to my opinion I don’t see any contradiction between Zone activation and Hybrid Mode, they should work together as a real Hybrid mode so activating the Hybrid mode will let the kbd ctrl parts to receive from ‘additional’ channel, not replacing other channel. This might resolve the lack of flexibility here.

Checking the MIDI Signal Flow diagram I see “Zone Enabled” appears at the upper left corner and after I turned Zone Master to Off then the Hybrid Mode got activated and Part 1 and Part 3 responded correctly to the MIDI notes that came from channel 15. This is exactly as you explained.

You only needed to deactivate any Zone Switches inside your current Performance. You deactivated the entire function.

The [UTILITY] > “Settings” > “Advanced” > “Zone Master” can remain On. This global setting enables you to choose to use Zones when you need to... And when you don’t need Zone, the instrument reverts to your choice of setup — either Single or Hybrid. By definition, enabling Zones within your Performance means you want to select “Multi” as your I/O Mode. N’est pas?
Zone use overrides the Single/Hybrid function.

It is 100% true when Zones are used you are going to address more than one device (By definition this is the equivalent of MIDI I/O Multi).
Activating a Zone Switch in any Performance immediately makes what you’re doing ACTIVE. The Zone Master Switch (the one found in Utility) is just that, a Master Switch.

as the article on Zone Master points out:

Here you can both set the Zone Master to On, and select the “MIDI I/O Mode” that will apply overall when you have not configured a specific Zone setup for a Performance. You will need to understand these two settings and how they work together.

• The "Zone Master" is all about what gets transmitted from the MONTAGE/MODX as the master MIDI keyboard from your current Performance. This can be configured on a per Performance basis.
• The "MIDI I/O Mode" is about what is both transmitted from and received by the MONTAGE/MODX, globally. If/when there are no Zone Switches active within a Performance your MIDI I/O Mode setting will apply and determine what goes Out via MIDI and how the tone generator is set to receive MIDI coming In.

When the I/O Mode is “Multi“ the MONTAGE/MODX is able to transmit (8) and receive (16) on multiple channels simultaneously; when set to Single it transmits and receives on a single, selectable channel. You can use either I/O Mode as best serves your particular system setup requirements. When set to Hybrid the KBD CTRL linked Parts can be set to transmit and receive same as Single, but additionally the non-KBD CTRL linked Parts will continue to transmit and receive as usual in Multi. Literally, it combines the behavior of Multi and Single to be a Hybrid Mode.

When the global Zone Master function has been activated, all 2739 Factory Preset Performances start with a neutral setting - the 16 local Zone Switches in each Part are set to OFF, by default. There is no data setup for the "Zone" functions in any Parts of the Factory Performances. Changes can and must be stored to USER locations.

Shown below the ZONE SETTINGS screen for PART 1 from the "CFX + FM EP" Factory Preset. Each Part has a Zone Switch On/Off and can function as a Zone setup.

Turning even one of these Switches ON in your currently selected Performances means the Zone Settings you make will apply.
If No Zone Switches are ON in your currently selected Performance, this means your Global “MIDI I/O Mode” setting will apply!

This way on a Performance-by-Performance basis you can determine what your situation is going to be.

Within your current Performance set the Zone Switch = Off (for each of the 16 possible slots)

Can you please tell on which screen exactly can I see the active MIDI channels with or without the exclamation marks? I didn’t find it.

First, you can see what MIDI Channels are active on the HOME screen. Press HOME
While your cursor highlight the Performance name you can see the KBD CTRL icons on Parts 1-8 — if a KBD CTRL icon is green (active) for a Part 1-8, then you are transmitting on that MIDI Channel. The original post said that in this Performance KBD CTRL was active on Part slot 1 and Part slot 3.

Now, if you go to [UTILITY] > “Settings” > “Advanced” > “MIDI I/O Mode” > set to “Hybrid” now you can select a single MIDI Channel on which the KBD CTRL linked Parts will Receive (In) and Transmit (Out). If you scroll through the Channels you will see an exclamation mark on the Parts that will be considered unlinked.
1, !2, 3, !4, !5, !6, !7, !8, !9, !10, !11, !12, !13, !14, !15, !16

This points out by setting either “Ch 1“ or “Ch 3” as your Hybrid Ch, will allow you combine these two Parts on a single channel without having to sacrifice an additional Part. You can go ahead and select any Channel you desire... but if you do, you lose that Part via MIDI IN.

The original post you chose Channel = !15. Fine, Parts 1 and 3 will receive on Channel 15, but Part 15 (if occupied) will not respond via MIDI IN.
Also by setting it to “!15”, Parts 1 and Part 3 when *selected* will cause the Keyboard to transmit Out on Channel 15, meaning, if you record this data to a sequencer and play it back they will respond. However, *selecting* Part 15 directly on the MODX (if occupied) will allow the MODX keys to trigger Part 15 directly.

So – on one hand I need to activate the Zones and on the other hand - make several parts respond to the same MIDI channel. Looks like a dead-end.
Is there any built in solution for that?

No, not built-in. Here’s what you need... an external controller that transmits on multiple MIDI Channels. That is not built-into the Slave device. It is built-in to the MODX.

Synths do not address their own engine with MIDI. Rather, they generate MIDI messages that when documented will recreate your performance.
MODX does/can, however, Output via MIDI everything you *perform* on the instrument — so that when captured and played back will recreate exactly what you performed. This includes notes you’ve played and controllers you’ve moved. Normally, it does this by generating messages on a separate MIDI Channel per each Part. This ensures you can use things like multiple Arpeggiators...

But if you set the MIDI I/O Mode to anything but “Multi” (namely “Single” or “Hybrid” ) the Arpeggiators cannot be Output via MIDI.
What many folks don’t understand or don’t see, is this very thing... if you setup with all the KBD CTRL Parts on a Single Channel, how does this not effect your ability to control the MODX from a Keyboard that only transmits on one channel?

How is it possible to do what you do on the MODX, if your external keyboard only transmits on one channel.

If you think the MODX addresses itself with MIDI you would be confused... it does not. It generates a message for each *action* you perform. All of those can be documented on a single channel. Of course, the Arpeggiators do not Output MIDI when you select “MIDI I/O Mode“ = Single or Hybrid, what is recorded is exactly what YOU played. You must capture what YOU play and feed it back to the MODX during playback to rearmed Arpeggiators. The MODX will see your controlling trigger notes, and recreate the Arp during playback.

Exactly like when you attempt to play a Multi Part Performance from a one channel controller... set MIDI I/O Mode = Single or Hybrid and you can address the MODX exactly like the MODX keyboard does. Exactly. Think about it - the MODX has only one set of keys.

Motion Sequences also are not necessarily output as MIDI. When you controlling/triggering data is played back to the MODX they cause the Motion Sequences to run and apply their automation to the playback. When you trigger the MODX via an external controller it can control/trigger the MSEQs same as the local keyboard.

Because of all of the newness, — a synth that both transmits and receives on multiple MIDI Channels— can cause much head scratching when some of the “old tricks” no longer work the same. The solution, as it stands now, is if you want to control the MODX engine with the ability to play KBD CTRL linked Parts on a single channel, AND you wish to combine other Parts linked together... (on the same channel) since that is NOT a function of the system... You need a ‘KBD CTRL-equivalent’ for your external ‘master’ controller... it simply needs to transmit on multiple MIDI Channels. Solved! Or augment your master keyboard with something that enhances its ability to control... hope that helps.

Camelot Pro software — did you see yesterday’s Tech Talk Live?
Will help your external controller address multiple, non-KBD Ctrl-linked Parts - the issue is really not reception, but one of transmitting.

I think I now fully understand the overall architecture and the limitations.

My two keyboards needs to be synchronized for each song that my band is playing. So each and every custom user performance I load must send the MSB/LSB/PC to the other keyboard once the performance is loaded in order to load and sync the matching program on the other keyboard. This is a common MIDI setup used between keyboards.
Therefore - I'm forced to always enable at least one zone in every user performance and so I can never use the Hybrid mode and cannot use the remote sustain pedal.

So as I see it - the Hybrid is really a good feature but I cannot use it. I really believe it could have been designed differently to be active even while some of the zone modes are also active as there is no contradiction between the two features. In any case that is the implementation.

Suggesting to buy an additional external software or hardware to support a basic operation (sustain pedal) is really surprising for a modern machine like MODX which tries to be very versatile and flexible. Note that other keyboards do support selecting a 'global' MIDI channel which responds well to Pgm changes, notes, CCs, Bulk sysex etc.

So now I will try to reverse the setup and connect the sustain pedal directly into the MODX instead of the other keyboard, hope it will work.

If you scroll through the Channels you will see an exclamation mark on the Parts that will be considered unlinked.
1, !2, 3, !4, !5, !6, !7, !8, !9, !10, !11, !12, !13, !14, !15, !16

Sorry but I still did not find it. Where exactly do you mean by "scroll through the Channels", scroll where?
At home screen it just shows the part numbers, not the MIDI channels.
At MIDI Signal Flow I don't see a list of MIDI channels.
Maybe you are referring to a drop-down list somewhere?
Can you show a snapshot?

In any case thank you very much for your prompt assistance, I truly appreciate it 🙂

Eldad

Now, if you go to [UTILITY] > “Settings” > “Advanced” > “MIDI I/O Mode” > set to “Hybrid” now you can select a single MIDI Channel on which the KBD CTRL linked Parts will Receive (In) and Transmit (Out). If you scroll through the Channels you will see an exclamation mark on the Parts that will be considered active, but unlinked.
1, !2, 3, !4, !5, !6, !7, !8, !9, !10, !11, !12, !13, !14, !15, !16

Above the current Performance is using the "Multi/GM" template as the starting point - all 16 slots are occupied. Parts 1 and 3 are KBD CTRL. All others are not.
How can you NOT be seeing this "!15"? If you are setup as you told us - you should see the above.

If you have nothing applied to a Part slot it will, of course, not have an exclamation mark.

Sorry, I don’t understand your issue with the sustain pedal. When you have a master keyboard (the one you are physically playing on) it is consider the “Keyboard” — this includes the keys and all of its controllers (MW, PB, FC, Sustain pedal, etc., etc) the Sustain pedal ‘goes’ wherever the Notes go (ie, on the same channel)... so your sustain pedal should be plugged into your master ‘controlling’ keyboard, normally.

I don’t understand how you are working or what is not working concerning your sustain pedal...

Now I understand that by "scroll through the Channels" you meant to select MIDI channels in "MIDI I/O Ch." entry field and I do see now the exclamation mark of the unlinked channels. Thanks!

Sorry, I don’t understand your issue with the sustain pedal. When you have a master keyboard (the one you are physically playing on) it is consider the “Keyboard” — this includes the keys and all of its controllers (MW, PB, FC, Sustain pedal, etc., etc) the Sustain pedal ‘goes’ wherever the Notes go (ie, on the same channel)... so your sustain pedal should be plugged into your master ‘controlling’ keyboard, normally.

I don’t understand how you are working or what is not working concerning your sustain pedal...

I am using two keyboards connected to each other: MODX and Nord Stage 3. Each serves both as a master and a slave to have a flexible programming options (each keyboard can have a split for any of the keyboards).

The connections:
MODX MIDI IN --> NS3 MIDI OUT
MODX MIDI OUT --> NS3 MIDI IN
The sustain pedal is connected to the Nord, sends MIDI CC64 on MIDI channel 15 to the MODX.

Also the Live Set function in MODX is much better then the equivalent in NS3 ("Song Mode") so the MODX uses the Zone mode to send the correct program out of each performance.

When you have, as you have stated, a situation where ...“each serves both as a master and a slave”, I don’t think you should be offended when some one suggests you’re ready for an additional piece of gear to better accomplish what you are struggling to accomplish, particularly, if that device was designed with what you are attempting in mind. It might, just might, bring new ease-of-use to your particular setup.

MIDI protocol selected the terms “master” and “slave” (after some contemplation, I would imagine) to create an image in the mind’s eye that there is one master per system. Now, creativity causes rules to be broken (almost as soon as they’re made), and that is usually not a problem, unless you don’t recognize/respect that what you’re attempting is just a bit outside that original set of rules.

If you find yourself in a situation that defies the basic “one master—multiple slaves“ paradigm, you should probably embrace the solution that folks like the makers of Camelot Pro are offering. One device that can instantly recall your desired configuration... because it is addressing each device in your system and it lets you configure these things (pretty much) to your heart’s content. I think it would be a disservice not to point you in the direction of a solution.

The sustain pedal is connected to the Nord, sends MIDI CC64 on MIDI channel 15 to the MODX.

When the Nord is playing the role of the the master and transmitting on Ch 15, the MODX sound in Part slot 15 will respond to sustain pedal along with Note-On events when you have the MODX set to an appropriate MIDI I/O Mode. You can set the Part 15 “Receive Switch” for Sustain to Off, to prevent it. But if the controller is in touch with Part 15 that means all MIDI Channel message on 15 will work (unless Receive Sw = Off).

Also the Live Set function in MODX is much better then the equivalent in NS3 ("Song Mode";) so the MODX uses the Zone mode to send the correct program out of each performance.

When the MODX is set to be the Master then you’ll use the Zone Settings within that Performance, and when MODX is the Slave then because no Zone Switches will be active in the Performance, the MIDI I/O Mode = Hybrid setting will apply... allowing MODX to Receive KBD CTRL linked Parts on a single, selected channel, and all other Parts to receive on their own correspondingly numbered channel.

You seem to be getting in trouble when you try to use the MODX as both Master and Slave at the same time. Or you’re looking to have one send recall settings to the other, but then not control it further (ie, looking for a mode that doesn’t exist). I’m not discouraging you, I’m just pointing out where you might want to look for a solution. You need something that can ‘conduct’ your system (one ring to rule them all). At least now you know about what it is, I’m not completely clear on your requirements (don’t have the details) but from what you’ve mentioned thus far, Camelot Pro seems relevant.

Hope that helps.

I don’t think you should be offended when some one suggests you’re ready for an additional piece of gear

Your suggestion is really fine and rational, all is fine of course, I was not offended. Furthermore I’m familiar with software solutions but currently I do try to find a proper solution without adding more devices to the setup.
I moved the sustain pedal to MODX as Nord do support receiving MIDI channel data passed to all keyboard sections which solved my problem.

To emphasize my point, MODX do support simultaneous MIDI input and output (simultaneous master and servant). MODX also supports the Hybrid feature, so looks to me everything is already there.
I understand the limitation but I do not understand why Hybrid mode and Zones are mutual exclusive to each other, as their logic is really independent. For example if some part (e.g. Part 16) has Zone mode active then why other parts with Key Ctrl (e.g. Parts 1 and 3) can’t receive the Hybrid mode MIDI data of MIDI I/O channel?

I hope my point is clear now 🙂

From Yamaha documentation:

• When MIDI I/O Mode is set to Hybrid:

Receiving MIDI Data
• MIDI data received via the channel that is set in the MIDI I/O Channel parameter is received on Parts with Keyboard Control
Switch set to ON.
• MIDI data received via a channel other than that set in the MIDI I/O Channel parameter or on Parts with Keyboard Control
Switch set to Off, is received via the corresponding Part.

So according to Yamaha documentation there is no mentioning of the dependency of Hybrid by the Zone mode, so this dependency can be interpreted as a bug. Maybe it is actually?

Not a bug, just a poorly documented feature.

The MODX reference manual documents:

MIDI I/O Mode
Determines which MIDI I/O mode is used for data communication between this instrument and an external
device.
Settings: Multi, Single
Multi: Transmits MIDI data such as Note On/Off messages for each Part.
Single: Transmits MIDI data using only the channel specified in “MIDI I/O Ch.”

MIDI I/O Ch. (MIDI I/O channel)
Determines the MIDI channel to be used for data communication when “MIDI I/O Mode” is set to “Single.”
Settings: Ch1–16

When this parameter is set to “Single,” Arpeggio data is not transmitted to the external device. When the Zone
function is active, the Zone setting for the Performance is given priority over the “MIDI I/O Mode” setting. You can see
which setting is active from the MIDI Signal Flow in the MIDI I/O display.

... so you have to combine the supplemental manual's new information with existing reference manual documentation. The underlined portion above is what is applicable here.

I wish these "gotcha" modes weren't there and more manual control was possible. That said - with the limitations we have today - the "gotcha" modes provide you with some advantages under certain narrow situations.