The only way I've found to prevent this is to turn off Loop, and not use a count-in when recording, instead use "Key On Start" (turned on).

Then you'll get a clean one bar loop, without extraneous stuff at beginning or end.

Slightly related trick, you can set start time for "Key On Start" to the beats of a bar, via the forward/back arrows above the Play and Stop buttons. So you can do a primitive kind of step record on whole beats, this way.

@Andrew ... are you saying Yamaha are aware, and this a known and documented "Bug"?

Or are you saying you have noticed it also, but never reported it because you found a workaround?

When the first Pattern Sequencer update was launched, a bunch of "influencers" tried to use it. None of them successfully, because it's such a cranky, byzantine and mislabelled and poorly designed "sequencer". During their videos, several of them demonstrated the kinds of knowledge of this workaround that could only have come from Yamaha themselves, in the way they described it.

So it might be the kind of "bug" that's "by design".

The second part, about cheatingly using it as a step sequencer, I've never seen anyone do this. This was something I "discovered" out of my desire to actually hit the beat. My playing skills are... KRAP!

I have noticed something weird in MIDI and Pattern Recorders.

Say you want to Record 1 Bar, 4/4 time, with a 1 Bar count-in.

You set up the Recorder to record 1 Bar, Arm the Recorder and start playing.

You assume anything you play after Bar 1 Beat 4 ( i.e. Bar 2, Beat 1 onwards ) will not be recorded.

You assume incorrectly. Anything you play will be Recorded as long as red Record light is lit steady and the Play function is green. This is pretty much how any sequencer works.

The sequencer, once placed in RECORD, does not stop recording unless you instruct it to stop recording as follows:
__ Press [STOP] to end Recording. Red Record light goes out. Green Play light goes out.
__ Use the Punch In/Out “RecType” to automate Record in and out Measure points. Red Record lights when Punch In point is reached, and goes out when the Punch Out point is reached. (Data within the region will be REPLACED).
__ Press the [RECORD] button while actively recording, to drop out of record without stopping the transport. [Record] button flashes to indicate rehearse mode. Play button remains green.

The Performance Recorder has three functions “MIDI”, “AUDIO” and “PATTERN”. You are discipussing MIDI recording so we’ll leave Audio out of this discussion. There is no bug.

MIDI is linear recording to a Song location 001-128
PATTERN is loop-based recording to a Pattern location 001-128, each Pattern has 8 Scenes (sections) which can be “chained” into a linear playback structure.

Basically linear record (MIDI Song) and loop record (Pattern).

When you are recording to a linear “MIDI” Song, the LOOP settings refer to playback only. The sequencer remains in record as long as the Record light is lit and the transport is running (Play).

When you are recording to a “Pattern” Scene, the sequencer automatically Loop Records to the LENGTH as set on the Record Standby screen… unless you set LOOP = OFF. When Loop record is On this allows you to add new information to existing information as it cycles around. If Loop is Off this will automatically end recording once the LENGTH has been reached. Combined with “Key On Start”, this LOOP = OFF setting allows you to begin and end recording with precision.

When recording to the Loop-based Pattern Sequencer, using Key On Start and Loop = Off, will ensure that your first key strike lands exactly on Measure 1, Beat 1, Clock 000. And it ensures that anything you play after the set LENGTH is ignored (because it stops). As a human you are not that accurate… let the technology handle Start and End Point. The Hihats you hear is you going over the bar line, past the designated Length setting.

When using Punch Record (in MIDI Song) you can designate the Start (IN) and End (OUT) point — all data within this region will be REPLACED. This is used when recording Performances multiple KBD CTRL-linked Parts with multiple Arpeggios, combined with real-time playing… it punches IN “ALL TRACKS”.

@Andrew. NASA... the Space Shuttle's were downed and people died (in both cases) because those who spotted/realised the flaws in advance, assumed someone else reported it because it was so obvious. Same happened in the Apollo missions in the 60's. In reality, those who did squeak got drowned, and the others decided to just shut up. So, there was also a NASA managerial culture of "shooting the messenger" added to the problem. With 20/20 Hindsight... it was all avoidable. But it will happen again. With big human organisational entities, the clock always resets to Ancient Rome business models... that is... Brawny Ignorant Slave Drivers + Slaves gets stuff done.

You haven't figured that out yet? Yamaha will have a rethink when one of their expensive "Ships" goes BOOM!!. and not before. Not because one of their "worker ants" had a "good idea" and certainly not because "Andrew said so". No matter how many times you say it.

Is your purpose in never-ending criticism to "Advance Space Flight" or just constantly P!$$ on Yamaha for the hell of it. Are Roland paying you a corporate espionage Brown Bag Salary? You change nothing dude. Yamaha aren't hearing you. You are only pi$$ing on your peers and would-be helpers in this forum.

@BM... thanks for the reply.

I understand everything you wrote.

However, this does not explain why, when Playback looping 1 Bar of a recorded performance (MIDI or Pattern) has double tracking on the first beat in the following scenario:-

Scenario: You record 50 Bars, and you accidentally continue playing into the 51st bar. This assumes you did not accurately and dexterously reach the Record, Stop or Play button in quite enough time to stop the recording by the very end of Bar 50 Beat 4.

Regardless. If you choose to Playback & LOOP Bar 33 Start, Bar 34 End (a sample from the middle of your recording) the 1st Beat of that LOOP will be Double Tracked (or Double overdubbed or whatever is going on).

This is 100% Reproduceable.

By contrast, if you stop playing well BEFORE Bar 50, then casually and comfortably hit Stop/Record/Play or whatever before Bar 50, the Playback LOOP works (and User Arps) whether you loop 1 Bar or 20 Bars. Whether you start from Bar 1 or Bar 13.

I will gracefully admit right now that it is probably related to some setting or misunderstanding of the Manuals, but it happens to me all the time.

@Andrew. NASA... the Space Shuttle's were downed and people died (in both cases) because those who spotted/realised the flaws in advance, assumed someone else reported it because it was so obvious. Same happened in the Apollo missions in the 60's. In reality, those who did squeak got drowned, and the others decided to just shut up. So, there was also a NASA managerial culture of "shooting the messenger" added to the problem. With 20/20 Hindsight... it was all avoidable. But it will happen again. With big human organisational entities, the clock always resets to Ancient Rome business models... that is... Brawny Ignorant Slave Drivers + Slaves gets stuff done.

You haven't figured that out yet? Yamaha will have a rethink when one of their expensive "Ships" goes BOOM!!. and not before. Not because one of their "worker ants" had a "good idea" and certainly not because "Andrew said so". No matter how many times you say it.

Is your purpose in never-ending criticism to "Advance Space Flight" or just constantly P!$$ on Yamaha for the hell of it. Are Roland paying you a corporate espionage Brown Bag Salary? You change nothing dude. Yamaha aren't hearing you. You are only pi$$ing on your peers and would-be helpers in this forum.

I suspected your question was an attempt at a 'gotcha', but it didn't matter, as I answer and respond truthfully, and from the heart.

What you've written above is some really odd stuff. I hope you have at least some of the self awareness you presume I'm lacking.

However, this does not explain why, when Playback looping 1 Bar of a recorded performance (MIDI or Pattern) has double tracking on the first beat…

Please pick one or the other since they work differently… are you referring to MIDI or Pattern?

Just to add...

I first experienced this problem 6 months ago or so.

That time I was trying to record very specific User Violin Arps. Listening to them immediately after recordings, I noticed something was "Off", not sure what, but I was happy they played the right notes.

That was until I started using them in the whole Band "Ensemble". (I would play Guitar until the Violin Chorus... which I Arp'd). The Arp's should have started a "new cycle" each time I pressed a new Key (it was 8 bars of D, followed by 8 Bars of C). The "Org Notes" Arp was 8 Bars... so i thought.

I stopped using it because (apart from Band members complaining I played it wrong):-

a) The First Bar 1st Beat, regardless, always sounded "double tracked"... like a another 16 Violin players suddendly remembered it was "their part".

b) When I changed notes (Piano Key press from D to C) it sometimes felt like it was still playing D, or starting 4 Bars too late on C to G (normally a change from Csus2 to Gsus4.... All inclusive... less than 16 different notes).

Back then I totally assumed I was doing something wrong so I shelved it.

There's something going on here.

Yes, it may be something I am doing wrong.

Whichever it is, please don't tell me "Screw it... use a DAW".

I do not want to use a DAW.... end of argument.

I bought a musical instrument, not a hardware peripheral to a pre-requisite multi thousand dollar IT suite.

I don't produce and record. I play.

Dear BM...

It is both.

Dear BM (I want to address you as Phil, I am Tony)

I already spent hours figuring out how to record and make Drum User Arps (see my tutorial).

I spent enough hours during this to realise that I needed to find a workaround for this issue, lest I spend another 10 months with analysis paralysis.

I understand your position, I too have worked corporate 3rd Line Technical Support. From what I have been doing, I am confident to say it is 100% Reproduceable with either the MIDI or Pattern Recorder.

I gave plenty of runs at it, using both recorder types, and working my way up from 1 Bar to Multiple Bar Recordings.

I looked at "Undo Media Record" functions, various Record or Playback/Loop Start/End parameters both before and after recordings.

The workaround I found is to just STOP PLAYING before hitting any "Recording Window" expiry parameter you have set prior to Record or "a good amount of time" before hitting the Stop/Start/Record button to stop recording. In MIDI Recorder there is no setting for "record window" but loopback allows you to set a Start Position and Start/End LOOP window.

I thought may be that if you play just too (millisecond) early for Bar 2 Beat 1, that key press will be included (heard) in the loop. But why does it appear (double tracked, lagged) on Beat 1, not Beat 4, and why does Quantize (1/16th) not shift it to a 1/16th beat, instead of a 1/32nd or 1/64th slap back?

I don't know. Probably something I missed, but it is driving me crazy.

I tried to cram in valuable MODX learning time over a rare Xmas 2 week break. As ever, too many other things grabbed my time as soon as they knew it was available, so this us the best I can report. I have ran out of time.

Consider it my parting query. I am back in the trenches 3am tomorrow.

BTW.... The "Band" is no more, which I am entirely happy about, I am sick of 30 years of guitar... and want to concentrate on Synths.

I tried to reproduce starting with the MIDI Recorder (not pattern recorder) - but there's not a way to set the length, loop, or start on key press so not enough of the procedural steps to reproduce were lining up to feel like I was doing something close to the same thing. Abandoning that, I moved on to the pattern recorder.

I recalled the "Init Normal (AWM-2)" Performance
Pressed the record button in the transport area
Set the loop to off, length to 1 measure, key on start

Then I pressed one low note - then waited for a sec and then started playing the same high note 16th notes.

Soon, I heard the low note come back around and sounded "split" by the 16th notes. Not layered - but as if it was strangely gated by the 16th notes. Not playing anything at all the system kept playing something that sounded regenerative evolving over time. The interface was locked up. I couldn't press buttons or the touch screen. I left the keyboard alone and when I came back after an hour or so I saw an error message "Song/Pattern Data Overload" (or similar).

I went in trying just to reproduce but ran into something worse. Note I've tried to reproduce this first try "getting lucky" with a crazy error and haven't been able to.

Maybe despite having the precount set to OFF - I still see there's a precount even with key on start set. Maybe the error was because I was starting the pattern in the precount time AND when the recording started maybe I was "in the middle" of a 16th note so only the note off (with no note on) was recorded by the Pattern recorder which cratered the system. Maybe - I'm not sure. I wasn't doing anything spectacular.

I posted about an issue I encountered some time ago, which I feel is somewhat connected?
https://www.yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/recording-midi-from-daw-into-pattern-sequencer-missing-first-note

Just to add, when the problem described at the link occurs, you can faintly hear a bit of a "ramp up" of volume as the beat 2 note is produced after the missing 1st note.