Notifications
Clear all
Topic starter
TLDR in Post #2
I apologise in advance for being a noob.
In my Guitar background, I'm nearly always in Mono, and where applicable, Effects (Pedals) have a simple Mix Control that Blends in a Volume of the Wet (affected) signal with your Dry (unaffected) signal.
Usually, Mix = 100% means the Wet signal is equal in volume to your Dry Signal (50/50).
In a few cases, Mix Wet/Dry = 50/50 occurs at some nominal value, and increasing the Mix Value from this point starts to decrease the Dry level to get a 100% Wet, 0% Dry mix.
I have a most basic awareness of Sound recording where some effects (Reverb mainly) are placed on the mixing console "Bus" such that each instrument or vocal can be mixed accordingly, allowing all "tracks" to sit neatly in the same Reverb "Space".
So, I am getting a bit confused about whats happening at the Master (Performance Level) Effects... Var and Rev. I would like to understand it better, so I can make better use of it.
I notice that every Part has a VAR Send and a REV Send Level. Also that every Performance has a "Master" VAR Return and REV Return Level.
If I look at the Performance MIXING, I see that all Parts by default have a DRY Level of 127. I can also see there are controls for VAR and REV Send for each Part, and single VAR and REV Return Levels to the far right MST column.
To add, the VAR output (Return) has a second option level "VAR to REV" in the Routing tab (default 0). I presume this allows VAR to be put in SERIES with REV.
Lastly, I notice there are no individual Mix (Dry/Wet) controls in any effect category that can be assigned to VAR or REV.
So, I presume that the VAR Effect, and REV effect, by default, route in PARALLEL to the Dry Signal? Only with use of "VAR to REV" are they in SERIES? Is this correct?
If I wanted to run VAR Delay INTO REV Reverb (In SERIES) I would need to set "VAR to REV" level to "127", REV SEND to "0" and VAR Return to "0"? Does that mean the REV is only receiving INPUT from VAR (Delay) or will it still also receive direct DRY input from the PARTS (including any INS effects).
What is the general "Best Practice" for using this "Parallel" or "Series" Bus type set up?
To exaggerate:-
Is it best to set Return Level to 127 and then use individual PART Send Levels to vary the "amount" of Reverb per part.
Or...
Is it best to set SEND Levels to 127, then vary the amount of REV for everything by adjusting the REV Return Level.
Or
Is it best to set REV Send and REV Return to some Medium Value and adjust the "Mix" by adjusting the Part DRY Levels.
In reality I suspect it is a combination of all 3... DRY Level + VAR/REV Send + VAR/REV return.
This is where I am struggling (and I haven't even got to INSERT effects yet).
Case Example:-
I have created a Multi-Part Performance for Pink Floyd's Shine On You Crazy Diamond. The intro section is the most complex and comprises:-
- Bass
- String Pad
- Brass Lead
- Incidental Sound FX
- Crystal Wine Glasses
With all effects OFF, I can Balance all the Part levels in the MIXING window. So the "Dry" level for each Part is different (Not 127).
Some of the Parts (Wine Glasses for example) require individual FX... in this case Delay, so I create an INS effect for this.
Now I have a Performance with various PART Levels and some with INS effects.
The whole original recording is very "Ambient" with Reverb AND Delay (Binson Echorecs). So, I use VAR (Delay) and REV (Hall Reverb). I think the Delays were run into Reverbs (In Series) at the studio mix down.
The end result (as per the record) is that the whole performance should sound "distant" but with some parts more "Present" in the mix (Closer vs Further away).
I am having difficulty/frustration in trying to achieve this ambient mix.
I suspect it all lies in knowledge of how to use BUS FX Send and Return Levels effectively. But at the moment I feel like I am just randomly tweaking controls and not getting any closer to what I can hear in my head.
Please can you help.
Posted : 21/12/2021 3:18 am
Topic starter
TLDR...
Use of Send, Return (VAR & REV) to level and balance ambience/reverb across multiple parts is confusing me.
I am not familiar with this method, and I am struggling to make multiple parts "sit together" in 3D space.
I am hoping someone can suggest best practice or typical method for approaching this. Maybe suggest a link.
It seems if I get one part "balanced" right then another part now sounds wrong. I adjust that "wrong" part, then something else now sounds out of place.
Its like chasing your tail, nailing jelly to a wall etc.
I realise this is my inexperience, not an issue with MODX.
Posted : 21/12/2021 11:31 pm
Argh... I didn't initially understand what you were on about, but was mightily impressed by your analysis, which matched mine. In your second post, I discover why... we have the same problem!
I completely understand and commiserate.
Unlike you, I think this is an issue with the MODX architecture - that it's "get what you want with the inserts on most parts, and one or two parts can also exploit the Performance Level Effects, if you pre-think it all."
And the reverbs... I don't tend to use... despite spending enormous amounts of time testing and trialling them, as there's so many of them. With some effort, I've made some good ones for pianos, to put them in a space, largely because they absolutely just must have them. All synth sounds I make are formed in a way that doesn't need any of the onboard reverb, because the onboard reverbs aren't really up to it.
Since you're a guitarist, you've been spoilt by a lifetime of access to the world's best reverbs....
Posted : 22/12/2021 12:22 am
TLDR...
Use of Send, Return (VAR & REV) to level and balance ambience/reverb across multiple parts is confusing me.
I am not familiar with this method, and I am struggling to make multiple parts "sit together" in 3D space.
I am hoping someone can suggest best practice or typical method for approaching this. Maybe suggest a link.
It seems if I get one part "balanced" right then another part now sounds wrong. I adjust that "wrong" part, then something else now sounds out of place.
Its like chasing your tail, nailing jelly to a wall etc.
I realise this is my inexperience, not an issue with MODX.
A noob myself, so following your path with interest as it's similar to mine.
That being said: as a general principle, I think Montage/MODX effects approach is pretty much identical to a multi-track DAW with insert effects and an FX bus.
So any mixing docs / book / net tutorial should apply, and there's tons of them. A book that I got for this purpose is "The Mixing Engineer's Handbook 4th Edition" by Bobby Owsinski, but as I said there are tons.
Some docs from Yamaha on the topic:
An issue of Music Production Guide: http://www.musicproductionguide.eu/MPG/MusicProductionGuide_2017_08_EN.pdf
(the whole collection is full of valuable info re: Montage/MODX from 2016 onwards): https://www.musicproductionguide.eu/mpghistory/history_en.htm
There's also a TechTalk video series on Effects:
https://www.yamahasynth.com/learn/events/tech-talk-spotlight-montage-modx-effects
Posted : 22/12/2021 9:38 am
Topic starter
TLDR... @Darryl... thanks for the links, I'll read them. @Andrew... good outboard effects are not exclusive to guitarists, many Synthists use exactly the same models.
‐-------------
Thanks for the replies. I was worried my posts read like total nonsense and I was missing something very obvious/basic.
@Darryl.... yes indeed, I guessed the "Send" effects were specifically done this way by Yamaha to allow "Pro Mixing" of multiple parts. And applause to them for doing so. My problem is I have never used this "system" before, so I guess I am asking for tips.
I had already done a bunch of searches and got loads of hits, but 98% of them are "how to create an FX Send Bus in Brand X Daw", " Why to use a Send Bus... workflow, uniform FX processing, reduced CPU load"... I already get all that. Then the remaining 2% "In Use" give immediate disclaimers "There is no right or wrong way" then proceed to demo some plugin, with no explanation of their thought process or philosophy. Thanks for the links, I will read them.
@Andrew.... Guitarists don't have exclusive access to great effects. If you look on YouTube there's usually a good percent of "Guitar FX" being demoed by "Synthists". Over the years I was a big Line6 fan (now owned by Yamaha I hear) and I encountered many Synthists on the Line6 forums.
Around 2013/14 I scraped together enough cash to Part Exchange my Line6 DL4 delay for a Strymon Timeline. I was blown away by the Timeline, and eventually saved up enough to buy a Strymon Mobius and a Strymon BigSky as a priority. They've been worth every penny and paid for themselves in money and time saved. Strymon positively market to the Synth community now, having realised their attraction in that market. Take a look at the Strymon NightSky and Strymon Magneto if proof were needed.
As things stand, I've also been blown away by the Yamaha FX on the MODX. I had no idea about these when I bought it, so it came to me as a massive bonus. Not least for practicality. It meant I didn't have to dismantle my guitar setup to access a very similar range of effects (no cables, no power supplies, no re-levelling, no re-EQing etc). I have every intention of maximising the MODX effects, and only if I hit a limit would I resort to cannibalising my guitar gear. For what its worth, 99% of my Reverb patches on Guitar are basic "Bread and Butter" Reverbs like Room, Hall and Plate. The trick to getting more Depth, Space and general mileage out of Reverbs is to run multi-tap delays into them. You set the delay EQs quite "dull", tap tempo them (so they sit behind your played notes), keep the feedback high-ish (7-8 repeats) and the mix low-ish (30/70 Wet/Dry),
Anyways... seeing as the MODX has a Send FX bus, I figured I'd try and make proper use of it. I know what its for, I just can't make much sense of it at the moment (I'm trying to do the Delay into Reverb trick.... VAR --->> REV).
Posted : 22/12/2021 2:00 pm
The A/D input can be treated just like any other part in terms of FX, so you can use the MODX as a multi effect processor for your guitar.
Posted : 22/12/2021 2:07 pm
Topic starter
This is one of those questions I eventually figured out myself by just working on it.
Here is the mistake I made i.e. the bit that caused me confusion:-
The DRY LEVEL is NOT the PART VOLUME (EDIT - PART - COMMON - Part Settings - General)
There are TWO separate Parameters:-
1) VOLUME - Overall Part Volume as controlled by the Sliders, relative to other Part's Volumes.
2) DRY LEVEL - This is just another parameter as per RevSend and VarSend.
The DRY Level combined with both RevSend and VarSend establishes the Wet/Dry Mix for the PART in the MASTER EFFECTS Section (not to be confused with per Element Insert Effects).
If you are Interested you can try this out for yourself
Set both Insert Effects A and B to "THRU" and set RevSend = 63 and VarSend to 0.
Set up a HALL Reverb in the Master Reverb Effects, and give it a fair amount of Decay Time.
Set VAR = THRU
Set REV Return to 63 (50%)
Set VAR Return to 0 (0%).
Play the Part all the while adjusting DRY LEVEL.
The Lower you set DRY the more washed out the sound.... but the Volume (controlled by Part Volume stays the same).
Set Dry Level = 0 and you will hear only the Reverb wash.
Obvious with Hindsight.
Posted : 09/01/2022 8:38 am
