It’s not a bug.

What you need to know:
The Note Limits you set on the HOME screen determine what notes will sound from a Part. By setting the Note Limit here to F#2 you are (strangely) limiting the acoustic piano to only sound from F#2 and below. And depending on what Arp Phrase you have selected, that could be tragic... you may miss half of the Phrase because nothing will sound above F#2.

Normally, this Part Note Shift parameter is the setting for when YOU are directly playing the Keys... but YOU are NOT, Arpeggio is “playing” the Keys — you are only inputting Control notes. Unfortunately, you don’t mention what Arp Phrase you are using, but do yourself a favor and set the Part Note Limit, here, to C-2 through G8. This way the Arp can sound from any notes it needs, across the piano range

The (other) Note Limit parameters you set within the PART’s “Arpeggio” screens (Press [EDIT] > select “Part 1” > touch “Arpeggio” > “Common”. This set of Note Limits determine what range on the keyboard will input control messages to the Arpeggiator. (Quite different).

Here the ARP Note Limits determine what notes on the Keyboard control the Arp. Here is where you set it if you want to control the Arp with your left hand... set the range here to C-2 through F#2. This range will determine what chord quality plays... only notes pressed in this range will determine major, minor, dominant, augmented, etc.

The Octave Shift parameters on this Arpeggio screen determines how the Arp Phrase sounds. If you want the Phrase two octaves higher, set the Octave Shift = +2. This shifts the Arpeggio Phrase.

The Note Shift you used Shifts the tone generator when YOU are directly playing the acoustic piano... but remember it’s NOT YOU, it’s the Arp that is ‘playing’ the piano. The Octave Shift will shift the Arp Phrase. Make sense?

It’s not a bug! You need to appreciate the difference between:
_ the Part Note Limits — what notes sound
_ the Arp Note Limits — what notes, when input, will control/trigger the Arp Phrase

No, no, no, no! 🙂

I wasn’t clear. I understand how arp works. What I say is: I press a key that’s OUTSIDE the allowed range, a key that should trigger the upper part only. But it also triggers the lower part and still plays an arpeggio and it’s a non transposed one (although the lower part is set to +24). Please, read my description, see the screenshot and try it! It’s definitely a bug.

P.S. I reread my initial post and it’s not clear that I mean pressing keys outside the range. Apologies.

Sorry, can you be specific... which Arp are you using? There are too many to draw conclusions about all of them.

While we review this....
Did you try the corrections as I recommended?
You have set a Part Note Limit that cannot play any piano Arp that I find... C-2 thru F#2 — That simply cuts off most of the notes used in the Arp Phrase. Please set the Part Note Limit to C-2 thru G8.

The Part Note Shift is not what you want either (that is the error)... you *thought* this would *fix* the notes being cutoff at F#2, but that just compounds the issue...
You want to leave that PART NOTE SHIFT at +0... most likely.
If you want to change the transpose of the Arp Phrase use the Arp Octave Shift.... Not the Part Note Shift.

Can’t be plainer than that.

The arp doesn't matter, I can reproduce it with any arp, including those that just repeat the same note and don't span octaves.

Let me state my use case once again and you tell me if I'm doing something wrong.

I need to split the keyboard and use two parts, one in the left that goes up to F#2 and one in the right that starts with G2. The one on the left needs to be transposed up with 2 octaves. Also, the one in the left I play as a simple (non-arpeggiated instrument) but also, when needed, with arpeggios by switching the arp button on. Also, regarding the arpeggios, I don't care how much they span, they can be complex ones and go 8 octaves above what I play, I don't mind and I don't want to limit that in any way. I only want to limit which region of the keyboard controls that part, namely the region below and including F#2.

The MODX is not in front of me, I'm currently at the office but I can reproduce it from memory pretty easy:
- From the category search select piano sub and choose the first single-part (green) piano you see
- In the Live screen click on the second (empty) part + button to add another part and then from the category search choose the pad subcategory and select the first single-part (green) pad you see
- In the live screen, limit the range of the left (first, piano) part to F#2, I use the keyboard control for automatic selection of upper limit
- In the live screen, limit the lower range of the right (second, pad) part to G2, I also use the keyboard control to automatically select the lower limit
- In the live screen, enable arp only on the left (first, piano) part
- In the edit screen of the left (first, piano) part go to pitch and set it to +24 semitones.

Now, ARP button is not enabled, so there's is no arpeggio, the keyboard is split, piano on the left, pad on the right, the piano is +2 octaves. You play it and it's OK. If you play the G2 key it will play only the pad as expected.

Now, enable ARP button. If you play keys below F#2 (inclusive), it works as expected, you hear the default arpeggio and it sounds transposed, as expected. If you select a complex arpeggio that spans multiple octaves, it will play OK, that's expected and I'm OK with that, I don't want to limit the arpeggio range.

Now, play any key from G2 to F#3. You will hear both the right (second, pad) part but also the left part arpeggiated. This is unexpected. This part of the keyboard is not allowed for the left part. This is a bug. (Expectedly or unexpectedly in this octave the arpeggio will not sound transposed +2 octaves. But it shouldn't sound there at all.). If you play G3 and above there's no bug, you can hear only the right (second, pad) part.

I don't want to mess with arpeggio octaves and stuff because as I said I want to be able to play the left part without arpeggios when needed (ARP button off) and with arpeggios (ARP button on), and for that reason I need to have the pitch control set to +24 semitones and not the arpeggio controls. The left part actually plays exactly as expected. The problem is in the first octave of the second part that erroneously triggers arpeggios on the first part.

I’m not doubting what you are saying... but there are different types of arps (some that have high and low Note wrap-around points that come into play, others do not; some respond to single Notes and play complete phrases, others require more information to interpret chord qualities, and others have built-in octave jumping behavior, Some cover one octave, others play phrases across 4 octaves, some interpret 4 notes, others interpret all held notes, etc., etc.). Also if you do not properly Note Limit your Arp Control range, you can adversely impact the results when dealing with a split keyboard. You have undoubtedly found yourself in one of those corners of the system where time and space warp...

Better put, the instrument does not prevent all illogical input... it may not prevent you from doing a particular assignment even though it does not result in a practical result. It may have a very limited use, or it might well be considered a bug or cause a bug. There are scores of these... but if it is a situation where when correct entry of the settings is available and works, one should endeavor to use it (that’s my point). With 10,239 Arpeggios there is more than you can imagine from first glance (they are not all the same, nor do they behave the same).

I will pass along your finding (if/when I can get mote specifics — it is more likely to be understood). Please, when you get in front of your gear, let us know... I’m not sure I follow exactly what you are trying to do (sorry). I’m sure it would help if I heard what you’re hearing

Without specifics about which Arp Type name and/or number, there maybe an explanation and there may not.

Edit: just a thought...
Rather than switching the Arp On/Off and playing that Note Shifted Part in a region best used to configure what the Arpeggiator is tasked to do, seems you could switch Scenes to a setup that allow you to play the part manually, on the keyboard, when you desire.

I'll try to record a video of what I'm doing. Actually, I found that bug on the very first rehearsal I had and I was quite embarrassed but thought it was me not very familiar with the instrument yet. What I wanted to do is a pretty simple and basic scenario: to have a pad on the left and a lead on the right. I set up the split point, transposed the pad 1 or 2 octaves up and then discovered the pad was triggered from keys that are assigned to the lead. It turned out it was a pad that also had arpeggio enabled (for a nice moving sound). And it turned out that the transpose is the culprit. If I remove the pitch transpose, the bug disappears. I forgot about that scenario but last night suffered the same bug. There are workarounds, I agree, such as creating scenes where one is with non-transposed part and arpeggio enabled and octave shift used for the arpeggio and the other is with the part transposed through the pitch shift and arpeggio disabled but that is all two awkward, you must agree, a bit non-intuitive. I'm pretty positive it's a bug related to the combination of part transposition and arpeggio and is not related to particular arpeggio but is instead something global and easy to fix. But I will try to record a video anyway.

Do you know the difference between the terminology TRANSPOSE and NOTE SHIFT? As used in the MODX (They are not interchangeable).
I can only speak the terminology of the product. We have been discussing NOTE LIMITs and NOTE SHIFT, the word “Transpose” is an entirely different thing.

What would be MORE helpful than a video would be the specific Arp Type Name/Number ....

OK, I'll provide details later today.

I use the term "transpose" because that's the musical term and because that's how it's called by virtually everybody. Except for Yamaha who decided to call it "note shift" 😀 Tomahto-tomayto as you English-speaking people say.

On a totally unrelated note, is it only me or this forum is really buggy? Although I choose to be remembered, I have to enter my credentials way too often and it will say they are invalid most of the time and I have to re-enter the same credentials multiple times, then it would randomly just redirect to the main page and not the forums and then I navigate back to forums and then the web-session is again lost and I need to re-enter. I tried my iPhone and my Mac and with two different browsers and it's always the same. Is it like that for other people?

I use the term "transpose" because that's the musical term and because that's how it's called by virtually everybody. Except for Yamaha who decided to call it "note shift" 😀 Tomahto-tomayto as you English-speaking people say.

No, no, no... it is definitely NOT that.

We know it’s a musical term! Would you rather we call it by something else? Yes, both change the Key, but we needed a way to differentiate between Keyboard Transmitting and Tone Generator Receiving. Call it “blue” and “red”

Blue changes the Key by sending a different MIDI Note Number
Red does not change the Key in the same way, it changes the sound eminating from the Synth.

If you Transpose the Keyboard all receiving devices change key
If you Note Shift the Tone Generator only the one Part changes key

There is an important difference... we know, that’s why the product makes (to you) an arbitrary difference. But fail to understand it at your own peril.

If you Transpose the KEYBOARD, your Split point physically moves position.
If you Note Shift the TONE GENERATOR, your physical Split point remains where you placed it. Only the sound changes key.

It is definitely not a “Tomahto-tomayto” thing, at all. It’s a synth thing!

On a totally unrelated note, is it only me or this forum is really buggy? Although I choose to be remembered, I have to enter my credentials way too often and it will say they are invalid most of the time and I have to re-enter the same credentials multiple times, then it would randomly just redirect to the main page and not the forums and then I navigate back to forums and then the web-session is again lost and I need to re-enter. I tried my iPhone and my Mac and with two different browsers and it's always the same. Is it like that for other people?

When you click SIGN IN, you must enter your Yamaha account...., it returns, showing same SIGN IN, again, give it a couple of seconds about 5-8 seconds, click on this second SIGN IN box... it should Log you in straight away without additional info...

I’m not a web person, but that seems to work. Just FYI.

OK, I experimented the whole night and I can confirm that there is no bug and everything you said is correct. Apologies.

However I swear this is the most counter-intuitive decision I’ve seen:

There are two parameters:
1. Part note limit
2. Arp note limit

If you need to split the keyboard you should change “part note limit” in case you don’t trigger arpeggios. If you decide to trigger arpeggios, you have to revert that setting and change the other one.

Intuitively one expects “part note limit” is where you should limit what keys can control the part. Instead it determines what notes will sound from that part.

Also, intuitively one expects “arp note limit” is where you limit which notes will sound from an arpeggio phrase (that can span multiple octaves if allowed). Instead, it determines what keys are allowed to control the arpeggio.

IMO these two are reversed. All my “issue” would not have existed if they were reversed.

Apologies again for bothering you. You are right and the manual is right but I’m a senior software engineer with a lot of experience behind my back and I still find it difficult to work with the MODX after a month. It’s the most unintuitive music instrument I’ve had. Take this as a suggestion for improvement 🙂

Thanks again for the patient answers!

Just to rephrase why that’s counter-intuitive for people who need to read a summary.

You are in the main performance screen and see the note range (limits) for each part displayed with a bar.

You see a part that has the full range bar and you think it can be triggered across the entire keyboard? No, you MAY be wrong if the arp button is on. It may (or may not) react only to the first half of the keyboard. Depends on a similar setting buried within the edit screens.

You see a part that has a range with a bar on the left and you think this part won’t sound in the right part of the keyboard? No, you MAY be wrong if the arp button is on again 🙂 There’s another setting in the arp edit screen that determines it and you may hear the arp phrase oddly cut off.

But turn arp button off and those limits you see visibly in the performance, suddenly represent what you intuitively expect.

I can sympathize. My first experience with this learning process was with the MO6 and had a similar reaction to my first walk through the land of note-limits. On the MO6 - there's a little less screen space to give you context - so MODX is a little better. But I agree that having multiple note limits displaced in various buried menus can lead to this initial stumbling block. Many many years later and I haven't made the same mistake again - so it's a bicycle thing. Once you learn ...

How this is presented to the user could probably be rethought and cause less confusion - but it's probably not the highest on the list relative to other usability "shortfalls" (taking an objective view).

This is one of those I'd agree that it's one of those areas of study that will translate back to just about every Yamaha pro synth/workstation for decades. And perhaps changing many GUI items is more disruptive (today) than the benefits.

This is a bug.

I get it, Yamaha has always had this bug, by design, in its architecture. But it's a bug, in design, no matter how long it's existed.

I came across this a couple of weeks ago. It was only because I'd analysed how the "Pattern Sequencer" actually works, and discovered how broken, un-designed, counter intuitive, unintuitive, user hostile, nasty, brittle and deceptive the "Pattern Sequencer" actually is, that I took a longer look at what it was doing with the key range.

But, like the OP, my first response was "Oh... a bug..."

Then I spent a little time tinkering, in my mind, and gained the ability to imagine myself as a misanthrope responsible for un-design, in a strongly hierarchical company lead by entitled offspring of the founding class with undiagnosed NPD. In this state, I transported the results of this type of leadership to the way the head of a programming team might think in an environment such as this.

In this state, I gained a new perspective.

From there I could see... argh... this is a note filter. Not a range setter, and because a note filter is super easy to code, whereas a true keyboard range split facility provision would involve considering the user and the state of the keyboard's split AND its transposition state, the choice was made to rebrand this primitive note filter as a range setting tool, instead. Because market demands, driven by pesky upstarts like Casio and other meddlesome cutthroat contenders to the musical sphere had unfairly created demand for splits and layering, that's no reason to make it fun and enjoyable. Just a checkbox to fill on the marketing literature with the most rudimentary possible legal satisfaction of the facility. In this context, the choice is simple in its genius desire to do the least possible. User hostile, yes. But so simple to code. So... Done. Lunch!

This was likely shoehorned in much the same way the Pattern Sequencer once was, since those seem to be popular. Having added keyboard splitting in this way, despite the fact that the very next most likely thing to do, after creating a split, is to adjust the pitch, means the user is screwed. Because there's no way for the user to intuit the behaviour, at all, and Yamaha can't admit to rebranding a lazy note filter as a means to provide range selection and keyboard splitting.

Cascading problems, from there...etc. etc. etc.

Andrew, I can't agree more with you. The "note limit" functionality is so awkward it must have been created by software engineers who don't use the keyboard at all.

Can anyone from Yamaha give me an example of a real scenario, or of an existing performance that actually needs limits of the arpeggio notes? This will most probably destroy the pattern since some of its notes will get cut out. And why?! Who would use that?! And even if someone for any weird reason needs it, why is this in the main performance screen?! And at the same time the actual keyboard limits (i.e. which keys can send control to the arpeggiator) are buried in the menus.

Extending this, can you give me a single example of why a regular (non-arpeggiated) part would accept keyboard events from the entire keyboard all the time but will produce only notes for the allowed "note limits"? What's the purpose of that? The much more intuitive way would be for this to be a keyboard input limit, which is the main reason behind splits.

I've been told it's hard to persuade Yamaha to introduce a change, but the hope dies last. Please, Yamaha! Could you please replace the current "note limit" functionality with "keyboard input limit" functionality and call it whatever you like. Then the arpeggiator will use it as expected. And you can then introduce the "note limit" functionality in the buried arpeggiator menu for whoever needs that although I highly doubt it.

This way I will be able to create a simple split in the simplest possible way: set keyboard limits for the two parts and be able to enable/disable arp without the need to go into menus or create scenes, etc. If anyone thinks the current way is OK, then probably there's something pretty wrong with me 🙂