Bump!

Anyone has any suggestion regarding the issue in the original post?

The Modx only supports 44.1Khz as far as I know. Some Motif models support 48Khz.

It definitely supports importing of 48kHz samples, even 96kHz samples, which was the funny part with a particular highly regarded 3d party sound library.

Of course there is no point of using 96kHz because it downsamples to 44.1 internally anyway.

There is something about the number of samples in a waveform and if they are mono or stereo, but I hoped there will be some sort of official answer.

You can also try to break an Olszak perf by sticking one of your samples into it (replace one of his) and see what happens.  Rather than trying to construct your own perf entirely leverage what's working with over 128 keybanks and surmise what properties do or don't break those existing perfs.

Blake or another Yamaha insider would have to spell out what the boundary conditions are on MODX and if down sampling is a feature or not since in the output stage MODX is only advertised to work at 44.1kHz.  I haven't seen any spec or clarification on the samples themselves.  At least not to the level of granularity to answer your question with authority.

I myself have a Montage (classic) so the rules may be different.  And I don't think MODX+ would deviate from MODX but ultimately these details would be helpful for all post-Motif synth variants (MODX, MODX+, Montage Classic, Montage M).

Calling/emailing support may get you somewhere but this would be best aired out in the open for the benefit of all.  Maybe try support and report back to the forum if they offer helpful info.

Posted by: ITB-Music

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The only difference that I see is that the samplerate in those other examples is 44.1kHz, while my samples are 48kHz, but then again they load fine in MOXF

Just to jump in here: The issue is 48kHz. MOXF loads samples that are 44.1kHz/16-bit. MODX too. I'm not sure that you're correct with your sample rate, but this is the reason as far as I can see. 

Posted by: Blake Angelos

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Just to jump in here: The issue is 48kHz. MOXF loads samples that are 44.1kHz/16-bit. MODX too. I'm not sure that you're correct with your sample rate, but this is the reason as far as I can see. 

Hey Blake, first if all, thanks for replying. Unfortunately, the sample rate is not the problem. After all, the famous "Rhodes Affair" sound library uses 96kHz/16bit samples and is loading just fine.

The problematic file (X6V) with a waveform containing 162 stereo samples/keybanks, 48kHz/16-bit, loads perfectly in MOXF8. In MODX7 it returns an error "Illegal File" and literally freezes the synth upon loading.
After splitting the same waveform into two, one with 128 keybanks and one with 36, again stereo, 48kHz/16-bit, it loads correctly in MODX.

So, obviously there is some limitation in MODX that was not there in the much older MOXF. I just wonder what exactly it is?

From my own tests, it seems that in MODX you can load a waveform with up to 256 mono samples or up to 128 stereo samples. Or it could be something else I have failed to find yet. It would be great to have some official clarification.

Posted by: Jason

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I myself have a Montage (classic) so the rules may be different.  And I don't think MODX+ would deviate from MODX but ultimately these details would be helpful for all post-Motif synth variants (MODX, MODX+, Montage Classic, Montage M).

I can send you the problematic file if you are interested in testing it on your Montage.

The limit for Modx is 256 mono, or 128 stereo, 'samples' per waveform. A stereo wave file counts as 2.

From my own tests, it seems that in MODX you can load a waveform with up to 256 mono samples or up to 128 stereo samples.

That is my understanding as well. 

One workaround would be to split the waveform into two pieces and use a separate element for each piece. You will need to examine the mappings of the original to figure out the best way (for you) to create two waveforms. You could do a split by note ranges or velocity ranges.

Then you would use one element for one set of note ranges and another element for the other set of note ranges.

I'm sorry, I have to be clear:

• MOXF with flash boards installed loads samples with a maximum sample rate of of 44.1 kHz 16-bit and no higher. MODX is the same. MONTAGE is the same. Not 48 or 96 kHz.
• Regarding Rhodes Affair: The MOTIF XF/MOXF/MONTAGE/MODX versions are NOT 96 kHz. They are 44.1 kHz. They may have been initially recorded at 96 kHz, and there may be VSTi versions that have full 96 kHz files, but for Yamaha products listed they are 44.1 kHz. (Case in point: the total size of the Rhodes Affair sample package is 468.6 Mb. If that was at 96 kHz it would be MUCH larger.

This is an important point that much be understood in this thread: 44.1 IS THE MAXIMUM SAMPLE RATE that MOTIF XF, MOXF, MONTAGE and MONTAGE M can load. 

Everything else (like a stereo waveform takes two notes of polyphony...which by the way, MONTAGE M spec is 128 STEREO polyphony for internal, 128 STEREO polyphony for flash memory) is all correct. 

I'll add this: IF there was a 48 kHz that loaded then you were hearing it out of tune because the file would play back at 44.1 kHz. I have never gotten any 48 kHz file to work myself, but if YOU did, it wasn't playing back at 48 kHz. The system isn't designed to do that. 

Posted by: Blake Angelos

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I'll add this: IF there was a 48 kHz that loaded then you were hearing it out of tune because the file would play back at 44.1 kHz. I have never gotten any 48 kHz file to work myself, but if YOU did, it wasn't playing back at 48 kHz. The system isn't designed to do that. 

Once again, thanks for responding. I understand that using samples above 44.1 kHz might fall into the "unintended use" category, but I find it perplexing when sound libraries hosted on the official Yamaha store, such as the free CS80 - MONTAGE are in fact using 48 kHz samples and are sounding perfectly in tune.

Please check the attached screenshot, it shows the the CS80, the Rhodes Affair and another Yamaha provided library - VP1 for Motif XF from the 10th Anniversary Pack, all of them using samples above 44.1 kHz. The screenshots are made in Melas Waveform Editor, officially endorsed application that was part of the Yamaha boot a few years ago and upon exporting of these samples, their sample rates are indeed as shown on this pic.

What's extremely puzzling in my problem, is that the same file loads without any problem on MOXF, but not on MODX. There is some limitation in the newer generation and this is what I wanted to understand/have confirmation for.

I don't really want to push this any further, than necessary. I will try to resample the samples that I have a problem with down to 44.1 kHz and check if my MODX will load the file then, and will report back.

Nothing in the screenshot shows any waveform with more than 128 keybanks.

Please clarify - NONE of the 3 libraries in that screenshot show any waveforms with more than 128 keybanks. The max for CS 80 is about 22 keybanks, Rhodes Affair only has 1 waveform with 120 keybanks and the VP1MOTIFXF.X3A file shows 19 waveforms with the largest (#2) having only 104 keybanks.

Q #1 - do  the three files in the screenshot load properly on your Modx?

Q #2 - are you having trouble loading waveforms with more than 128 keybanks/samples or LIBRARIES with more than 128 keybanks/samples?

The reason I ask #2 is because this is what you first posted:

Recently I am experiencing a problem creating/importing waveforms for Montage/MODX with more than 128 keybanks/samples and I am not sure what's causing it.

But, as said above, nothing in the screenshot you just posted shows any such waveforms. The screenshot certainly shows that the X3A file and the CS 80 X7L file have multiple waveforms where the TOTAL number of keybanks is greater than 128 but no individual waveform shown has more than 128.

I've always had the impression that Yamaha waveform can hold up to 256 keybanks/samples and I don't have any issues creating a waveform with more than 128 keybanks for Motif XF/MOXF, they load correctly there, but when I try to load that (.X3V file) on my MODX it only loads up to 128 keybanks per waveform and cuts off the rest.

Q #3 - can you show us that X3V file contents? The screenshot you posted displays 'Motif Waveform Editor - [VP1MOTIFXF.X3A]' which is a Motif file not a 'X3A' file as in the quote just above. Those are different file types. 

Creating a waveform with more than 128 keybanks in Melas Waveform Editor for Montage and loading to MODX just "breaks" the synth, making it unresponsive until rebooted and then the waveform is not there.

Q #4 - Can you post a screenshot of that file with the waveform having more than 128 keybanks?

I believe you when you say you are having an issue but having trouble understanding whether 'more than 128 keybanks/samples' refers to a single waveform or an entire file.

Here is what we found.

We downloaded the CS 80 - Montage offering and it loaded just fine into a Montage M8X.

With the library itself loaded we imported the '*PJ CS80 New Brass 1' performance into the user area.

Examining the performance we found:

1. one part using 3 elements

2. element #1 uses sthe CS80 SAW waveform - this shown as waveformk #0001 in your screenshot

3. using 'Edit Waveform' we examined each of the 22 keybanks

4. the info shown on the M8X screen is essentially what you posted with these exceptions:

    A. The numbering of the items is reversed - the M8X shows keybank #1 as matching no 22 in your screen shot and shows keybank #22 as matching your no 1.

    B. The M8X display does NOT show 'Mode' or 'Format' so there is no info such as '48000 Hz 16 bit' as in your screenshot

We have no knowledge as to why the keybanks are numbered differently by the Melas Software than by the M8X. The numbering likely doesn't indicate an issue but you have to wonder why different numbering was used.

Re the 'Rhodes Affair.X7L' file contents in your screenshot.

We are not familiar with that library and don't have it. But this is typical of the info we found online for it:

If you can provide more info re the questions asked above it will better help us understand the issue.

Posted by: Toby

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Nothing in the screenshot shows any waveform with more than 128 keybanks.

Please clarify - NONE of the 3 libraries in that screenshot show any waveforms with more than 128 keybanks. The max for CS 80 is about 22 keybanks, Rhodes Affair only has 1 waveform with 120 keybanks and the VP1MOTIFXF.X3A file shows 19 waveforms with the largest (#2) having only 104 keybanks.

Q #1 - do  the three files in the screenshot load properly on your Modx?

I am afraid that this is getting a long thread and you might have missed a previously attached screenshot of the problematic waveform with 162 keybanks, but here it is again for your convenience:

I will put one more reminder that this file loads perfectly in MOXF, but not in MODX.

To answer your Q1: Yes, all 3 files from the other screenshot are loading correctly. The point of the screenshot was to show that samples with 48 and even 96 kHz sample rates are not just common, but also provided by Yamaha itself.

Posted by: Toby

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Q #2 - are you having trouble loading waveforms with more than 128 keybanks/samples or LIBRARIES with more than 128 keybanks/samples?

But, as said above, nothing in the screenshot you just posted shows any such waveforms.

This question would make sense in the context of Motif XF/MOXF. where we had separate files for Voices (X3V, X6V, with or without waveforms) and Waveforms (X3W, X6W).

In Montage/MODX we don't have separate files for waveforms only. The answer is: "The problem persists while trying to load in my MODX7 a Motif XF Voice file containing a single waveform with more than 128 stereo samples/keybanks

Posted by: Toby

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Q #3 - can you show us that X3V file contents?

Check the answer of Q1.

Posted by: Toby

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Q #4 - Can you post a screenshot of that file with the waveform having more than 128 keybanks?

I believe you when you say you are having an issue but having trouble understanding whether 'more than 128 keybanks/samples' refers to a single waveform or an entire file.

Check the answer of Q1.

I would emphasize once again that I am talking about a Motif XF Voice file (X3V) containing a single waveform, containing 162 stereo samples/keybanks. This file is loading fine in MOXF8, but returns "illegal file" error in my MODX7 and freezes the synth (nothing responds, no screen, no controllers, no keys), until a power off/on cycle.

After using the Melas Waveform Editor to split the waveform into two (one with 128 and one with 34 keybanks), the file loaded fine in the MODX.

If someone is interested in trying, checking or investigating the problematic file, I can send it, just let me know.

Regarding your analysis of the other 3 libraries, once again, that screenshot was provided only to show that there are some pretty popular libraries for both Montage and Motif XF that are using higher than 44.1 kHz sample rates. It's not a display error, because the Melas Waveform Editor offers an option to extract the samples/keybanks as WAV files and they are indeed 48 kHz and 96 kHz as displayed on the screenshot.

In the case with Rhodes Affair (re-released as Keyaffair some time ago), using 96kHz is ridiculous, literally doubling the required sample space with zero positive effect on the sound (providing that we know the Montage/MODX will downsample to 44.1 internally). The fact that they have announced two different versions is simply because they have initially released the Montage version and it's not compatible with Motif XF. Bear in mind that the Motif XF version on their site is marked as "coming soon" and not yet available on their store.

Thanks for taking the time to look into this and join the "investigation crew"  

Yes - please send that one problem file to Yamaha using the 'Contact Us' link at the bottom of the page.

As for me I'm just doing a 'brain dump' - don't feel obligated to follow me down any rabbit holes I wander into.

I will put one more reminder that this file loads perfectly in MOXF, but not in MODX.

This question would make sense in the context of Motif XF/MOXF. where we had separate files for Voices (X3V, X6V, with or without waveforms) and Waveforms (X3W, X6W).

In Montage/MODX we don't have separate files for waveforms only. The answer is: "The problem persists while trying to load in my MODX7 a Motif XF Voice file containing a single waveform with more than 128 stereo samples/keybanks

 

As a long-time former programmer all of the above quote suggests to me that it may be a 'process' (programming) issue rather than an issue with any particular metric.

By that I mean that the code involved in the load process on the Modx is running into a road block of some sort. Only a developer could trace the execution path of the load code to see where it is getting hung up. 

But I am ALWAYS suspicious when I see things go wrong that involve boundary issues involving data issue: byte, short, int, long boundaries are always potential trouble spots.

So a 'more than 128' problem raises the issue of that high-order bit for single byte data. The below is based ONLY on conjecture since I don't know the internals.

1. If Modx loads a file that includes both voices and waveforms used by those voices then Modx has to create a single part performance.

2. The voice being loaded, and the single part performance Modx creates will have from 1-8 elements

3. In the Modx an element MUST HAVE a reference WITHIN the Modx to a waveform.

4. POTENTIAL trouble spot - the voice is being created BEFORE all of the required waveforms have been loaded into the Modx

So one possible issue is that the Modx code is creating an element and trying to reference a waveform that hasn't been loaded from the file yet.

There might be an issue with the order that the Modx 'load' code is loading things from the file. You can't reference an object that doesn't yet exist which suggests that the waveforms need to be loaded BEFORE any voices that reference them are loaded.

Another issue is that the internal work table that waveforms from the file are loaded into is only 128 entries long. Then when the 129th waveform is loaded it either hangs because the table is full or, just as bad, starts overwriting the first 128 entries with the later entries.

That is, it might put the 129th waveform into the 1st table slot, the 130th into the 2nd table slot, and so on. Then when a voice is created referencing a waveform that waveform isn't there anymore because it was overwritten.

I know that is a lot of bunny holes but figured I'd share it anyway. 

Here is the best I can offer at this point:

1. Make sure your Modx is using the latest OS release and that the issue occurs using that release. That is the first thing Yamaha will check and if you aren't on the latest release they may not look any further.

2. Send that one problem file to Yamaha using the 'Contact Us' link at the bottom of the page.

3. Include in the email your Modx serial number and a link to this thread

4. If you get a response from Yamaha Support please post it.