Very good question. I didn't know that this afflicted all AWM2 synths.

This further confirms my long held suspicion that the Motion Sequencer system was added and made a feature through the Super Knob to circumvent legacy issues with the LFO system.

Observation/speculation follows.

Changes to designs over the years have been subtle and focus on what to revamp has been strategic (from Yamaha's perspective).

The element LFO (ELFO in Motif docs) and common LFO (CLFO) has retained similar features and limitations going back generations. This may be an indication that the LFO is embedded in an ASIC as a core rather than software provided. I don't really know.

Motion Sequence (which can be synced to tempo) is often the approach one would take when striving for an element LFO as MS Lanes can target various element parameters and Motion Sequence is itself a form of LFO.

[quotePost id=118858]Observation/speculation follows.

Changes to designs over the years have been subtle and focus on what to revamp has been strategic (from Yamaha's perspective).

The element LFO (ELFO in Motif docs) and common LFO (CLFO) has retained similar features and limitations going back generations. This may be an indication that the LFO is embedded in an ASIC as a core rather than software provided. I don't really know.

Motion Sequence (which can be synced to tempo) is often the approach one would take when striving for an element LFO as MS Lanes can target various element parameters and Motion Sequence is itself a form of LFO.[/quotePost]That's very informative, thank you. I'm not completely expert with the Motion Sequencer so I'll investigate how to use it as an LFO for Elements.

1. Why is there even a part LFO? If the element level has the waveform and it's own LFO then what, EXACTLY, is the reason/need/utility of a part level LFO? What is it designed to do that can't be done by the (up to 8) element LFO's?

Why a Part LFO? The one word answer would be - flexibility. The PART LFO targets a different set of parameters and has a very important function — separate from the basic musical function of the Element LFOs (AWM2) and the “2nd LFO” (FM-X).

There are no absolutes, but generally speaking… a Part is an instrument… while 8-Elements/8-Operators are components that together make an instrument. (Not always, but in general).

One major difference between the typical sample-based engine (like the AWM2 engine) and other forms of synthesizers is, it can be far more detailed. Far more than, say, a typical analog synth — things like the number of components (Elements) and the fact that there is both an Element LFO and Element EG for each and every sampled Oscillator. (Often analog synths have one LFO, period. And it may have only one Amplitude EG shared by all of the oscillators).

AWM2 also comes with an overall Part LFO and a overall EG (offset) that can address them all from above in the architecture. That is, all 8 Element LFOs and all 8 Element EGs.

Think of the Element LFO as the one that creates the 3 kinds of musical movement: vibrato, wah, and tremolo. They are applied directly to the Oscillator (pitch) for vibrato, to the Filter (timbre) for wah-wah, and to the Amplifier (loudness) for tremolo. The Element LFO can be applied full-time or biased to a Controller.

Example: It is the Element LFO that is most often used to create the MW vibrato, for example, which must be programmed on a per program basis. Instead of the LFO continuously varying the pitch above and below the center tuning to create musical vibrato, it does so only when the MW is advanced (as the ‘Depth’ control)… we refer to this as being “biased” to the position of the MW (controller).

In the FM-X engine, the “2nd LFO” is the equivalent for the “vibrato, wah, tremolo” functions… Pitch Modulation, Filter Modulation and Amplitude Modulation. However, because not all Operators are audible, (only the Carriers make sound), an LFO applied to a Modulator causes a change in the resulting harmonic content of the tone. So you’ll find the Operator’s access to LFO, in a different place. The completed FM-X sound (all Operator together) go through a Filter (if one is applied). In AWM2 each Element has its own Filter.

The Part LFO is up one level in the architecture from the individual oscillator’s LFO.
AWM2: Combine the 8 Elements to make a Part. It is the separate Part LFO that links it in with the total instrument (Part LFO)… it can be applied to things like Cutoff/Resonance even though some Elements may have a LPF and others might have HPFs or BPFs, etc. It can be applied to the current Insertion Effect parameters that are being applied to the entire Part.

Unlike your typical analog synth engine, where you only have the oscillator’s LFO, here, having the Part LFO lets you interact with the Effect processors being applied or to Offset certain more typical parameters settings (pitch, pan, level, etc.) … notice you often have the option, where applicable, of selecting which of the 8 Elements will be affected and by how much. When this per Element option is unavailable, it is because all Elements are being treated together, as a unit. But you can still choose the routing of individual AWM2 Elements through the Insertion Effects (so you still have flexible options). Each AWM2 Element can go through one or the other or both or neither of the Insert Effects.

In the FM-X engine the Part LFO allows you to manipulate the assignable Insertion Effect parameters applied to the Part (instrument). The FM-X engine is different in how sound is generated so cutoff/resonance are not available (as the filter is not within the FM-X tone engine, but rather is post (after) the tone generation), pitch, pan, etc., are handled differently in the FM engine.
While the “2nd LFO” does the musical movement (vibrato, wah, tremolo)

So you ask, “Why is there…” if you think in terms of only basic analog synth engines, you’ll forget that there is another level of architecture and far more oscillators, filters, amps, etc., etc. here in this engine. Within the “Part” you have the lower (or Element/Operator level), and the upper (common Part level) of architecture… all this, before you get to the very top Performance Common level.

2. If you sync the part LFO then are the (up to 8) element LFOs auto synced to the part LFO? If not, why not? How can a part be synced if it's elements do their own thing?

If you sync the Part LFO then you can choose whether each, any, or all of the 8 AWM2 Elements follow suit. You can individually opt in or out using the DEPTH setting; you can control the phase relationship (makes a huge difference to your ear… instead of two things layered being identical and therefore only adding (summing) the results, by offsetting the phase of the LFO movement, your ear gets ‘tickled’ by the movement. Even the very slightest offset changes the feel. So instead of a minor increase in level when multiple oscillators are sounding, you get a big benefit in sonic richness and movement! Try it! We can provide examples if you get lost.

3. Does it make sense to sync ONE element LFO if the part LFO isn't synced? Or if none of the other 7 element LFOs are synced or synced differently?

It may or may not “make sense” your mileage will vary depending on what you’re doing, but it will definitely make a difference in how it sounds! Definitely.

4. Why are their two LFOs for FM-X but only one for AWM2?

Not true. There are two for both. Both have the musical LFO and both have a Part LFO.
All AWM2 Elements make sound, not all FM-X Operators make sound. I mention that so you know to look in different places. To find the Element (AWM2) LFOs you must EDIT an Elem1-Elem8, by first selecting it individually. The Operator’s (FM-X) “2nd LFOs” are located just below the “Part LFO” in Edit > “Mod/Control” > “2nd LFO”

5. Given the small fractions of a second between events are those parms like 'delay' and 'phase' really of much practical use?

Yes. A very resounding, YES!
It’s a good question — because it makes you think about sound. Let’s do that…

When I taught Audio Engineering I would put the class in the big studio room, I’d have the assistant turn out the lights. Once everyone quieted down, I would toss a quarter up in the air — not telling anyone what happened, we’d turn the lights back on. Everyone could point to the quarter. Everyone knew (recognized) it was a 25 cents coin. Everyone seemed to know that I didn’t just drop it… they ‘knew’ I had tossed it in the air.

In a dark room, if the coin hits the floor to your right and 15 feet behind you, you will immediately turn to your right… your brain will shuffle through literally millions (maybe billions) of possible sounds you have cataloged in your memory. It finds that quarter and says, “That’s it!”

The sound hit your right ear drum just thousandths of second before it hits your left ear drum, of this you are the most certain. In the dark you can almost pinpoint it exactly… as if you some how know how loud a quarter would be at that distance. Sound travels at 775mph (1100 feet/sec), your ears are just inches apart, but they are located perfectly for determining what and where that noise came from!

Don’t laugh but having heard that coin drop before under different circumstances, you can not only tell it was a quarter and you can tell whether it landed on a wooden floor, a linoleum floor, a stone floor, etc., etc., and because you were in the dark, your fright/flight sense determines if it was tossed leisurely or thrown with dangerous intent. All this happens with sound, just sound, in the dark… virtually instantaneously. The ear/brain alone is able to tell.

Changing the phase, or delaying a signal by even .01ms is huge, HUGE. Two like signals 180 degrees out of phase - cancel — you can definitely hear that. The signal, instead of remaining steady, will start to undulate and swirl as you delay it, even slightly. There will be peaks and troughs, reinforced signal and cancellations, you will hear all of that, *big time*.

If you get a chance try some of the programming tutorials I posted here on the sight - as they take you through tweaking these types of parameters. The programming articles are designed to be followed step-by-step as you go… they assume you are moving the highlighted parameter and experiencing the sonic result.

[quotePost id=118950]

2. If you sync the part LFO then are the (up to 8) element LFOs auto synced to the part LFO? If not, why not? How can a part be synced if its elements do their own thing?

If you sync the Part LFO then you can choose whether each, any, or all of the 8 AWM2 Elements follow suit. You can individually opt in or out using the DEPTH setting; you can control the phase relationship (makes a huge difference to your ear… instead of two things layered being identical and therefore only adding (summing) the results, by offsetting the phase of the LFO movement, your ear gets ‘tickled’ by the movement. Even the very slightest offset changes the feel. So instead of a minor increase in level when multiple oscillators are sounding, you get a big benefit in sonic richness and movement! Try it! We can provide examples if you get lost.[/quotePost]

I don't think you understood the question on that point. The query, following my own as the original poster on this thread, is exploring whether individual Element LFOs can be externally clocked. It seems that they cannot, whether or not the Part LFO is synchronised to external clock. It's the same on my MX49. Certainly, the Part LFO can be applied to Elements with a great deal of welcome flexibility but the Element LFO is free running only, which is a shame and seems unrelated to a programmer's need to conserve CPU usage. I would attach a screenshot from the reference manual (p126) but this forum tells me that my image (created with Windows Snipping Tool and saved as a .jpg) is in an unsupported format.

You also assert that individual Element LFOs would commonly be used for MW vibrato etc., as opposed to using the Part LFO for this. I'd have thought that the opposite is true, as vibrato/wah/tremolo is generally the kind of effect that sounds best on the whole sound and would be a little odd if it were only on one out of up to seven Elements. Unless that were the sound desired, but not routinely I'd think.

Ahhh... not only does this forum not permit files to be attached, but it also refuses to allow me to edit my own replies, producing an error message in red telling me it has detected it as spam. And it doesn't notify me by email of replies. All of these facilities were present on most web forums in the 1990s. Edited.

Did you have a particular use case in mind where you NEED to have an element LFO sync externally? I've found we often get better answers if we pose an actual problem scenario we are trying to solve.

Great question! Otherwise the fact that the ELFOs run with their own speed setting is just an observation without direction or purpose… similar to observing that automobiles don’t fly… in the end it is because they aren’t designed to do so… they are designed for a different purpose.

The ELEMENT LFOs are provided for the “musical” purposes, like vibrato, tremolo, and wah…
The PART LFO is designed to fly, er, sync to clock. And since it can be applied to any of the ELEMENTs, you can certainly accomplish the goal of sync’ing this LFO to external clock, if that is your goal.

The right tool for job (syncing to clock) would be the PART LFO. Each Element can follow it, or not; you can offset its phase to create an ‘ensemble’ effect (orchestras have tons of non-sync’d vibrato happening at any one time), you can vary the Depth of involvement.

The fact that the ELFOs don’t sync doesn’t mean you can’t accomplish an excellent result… you definitely can.

The Part LFO can be used to vary the Speeds of any of the Element LFOs.
The Motion Sequencer can be fashioned to behave like a switchable Envelope (one shot/aperiodic) or it can be like an LFO (loop/periodic) — and can be assigned to any assignable parameter. It can be Sync’d to Tempo; meaning it can run at tempo, even following the current beat; you can even fashion it so the parameter change occurs on a specific beat referencing your composition’s Measure/Beat structure.

Wait till you find out that there's a pooling system for LFOs such that even when you want them to sync, they don't, and inadvertently create polyrhythms.

[quotePost id=118987]

Wait till you find out that there's a pooling system for LFOs such that even when you want them to sync, they don't, and inadvertently create polyrhythms.

Is there some reason you don't want to tell them about it?

Share your knowledge - that is what the forum is for.

[/quotePost]

Before you get on your conspiracy horse, remember that I don't have a computer near the MODX, and use LFO's sparingly (favouring Motion Sequencer) and this was written about previously, by me, a very long time ago, and many folks tried to deny it occurred, and when faced with its absolute existence, denied it was a problem.

[quotePost id=118991]Rumors, falsehoods, innuendo - you're not a Republican by any chance are you?

this was written about previously, by me, a very long time ago,

Post the proof.

and many folks tried to deny it occurred,

Post the proof.

and when faced with its absolute existence, denied it was a problem.

Post the proof.

Remind me again of my childhood hero - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dsc3H1XMKs
[/quotePost]

Why do you deserve my efforts to go down this road, again?

You an entitled democrat?

[quotePost id=118981]The right tool for job (syncing to clock) would be the PART LFO. Each Element can follow it, or not; The Part LFO can be used to vary the Speeds of any of the Element LFOs.[/quotePost]I'm very unclear how to do this, which would answer my previous question. Please explain. Can each Element have its own clocked rate such as eighth, sixteenth notes and so on? Is there an online article or video about it?

[quotePost id=118981]The Motion Sequencer can be fashioned to behave like a switchable Envelope (one shot/aperiodic) or it can be like an LFO (loop/periodic) — and can be assigned to any assignable parameter.[/quotePost]Does that include individual Elements or just all Elements as one?

[quotePost id=118976]You also should be getting notifications - use the 'Contact Yamaha' link at the bottom right of the page and report the problem.

[/quotePost]I can't find anything on this Forum that turns notifications on or off. Where might I find it?

The facility to modulate speed of the Element LFOs using the Part LFO is not a replacement for sync. You could only do this if you somehow tell the Part LFO to output a constant held value that's equal to the tempo (and only if this output would guarantee the ELFO would never get out of phase -- something accurate enough to serve as a sync). You can't. You can modulate the element LFO timing so the clock is offset by the Part LFO's output value. That's not sync (not even close) although it is clock related.

... and, at the time being, if you need the Element LFO (under your Elements, not the Part LFO) to "sync" to tempo then you would need to:

a) Not vary tempo through any means. Tempo has to stay the same throughout.
b) Set the speed to "match" the tempo. This is a bit of trial and error. The values of 25, 48, and 96 seem to work for a tempo of 120. Originally my tempo was 95 and I came up with a value for it. The way I "hear" the tempo is by setting the ELFO to affect pitch and use a square wave so I get obvious pulses that are easy to hear.
c) Maybe set your clock not to reset on keypresses. There's danger either way. If you get lucky or not with the LFO clock beginning at the right time or not if you don't reset. And if you do reset on keypresses then maybe if you start a new keypress on an "off" beat or 3-against-4 (2-against-3, etc) then the reset would cause the clock to get off. If for pads that are whole notes starting on a downbeat, for example, key on reset would be safe.

If you do need to vary tempo through external clock sources or audio beat sync then all of this out. And if that is the case, then - at least for the Element-level LFOs all you could do is assign the speed to an Assignable Knob or Super Knob (or some controller) and "chase" the tempo manually using the knob. It's not perfect -- none of this really is meant to be a duplicate of sync. It's the extent to what's available.

That you can do this controller assignment to ELFO speed is a great thing. In the past I've chased tempo with older Motif products that gave me a tempo knob (for main tempo). This was useful for arpeggios I wanted to add organic ritardando to at the end of a tune. It's also easier to spin a knob than tap tempo or menu dive during a gig. So, I appreciate that at least here we can tie a dedicated knob or controller to something clock related (ELFO speed) without first doing menu diving to set it up on a gig.