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Why no way to direct connect a value to SuperKnob?

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As per the question.

Why must it go through assignable knobs?

 
Posted : 17/12/2021 11:49 am
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+1

 
Posted : 17/12/2021 12:56 pm
Posts: 263
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It would be better to buy more than one of the two mutually exclusive halves. Montage or Genos.
I miss the auto accompaniment in MODX.
However, I have seen the SX700 / SX900 are children's tools. Genos is the same.
I would like to see a normal device someday.

 
Posted : 17/12/2021 1:19 pm
Dragos
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As per the question.

Why must it go through assignable knobs?

It's a Macro controller.
If you just want to tweak one param with a knob, there are the assignable knobs already.

 
Posted : 17/12/2021 2:22 pm
Jason
Posts: 7930
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With a hardware and software design experience - I could give some amount of background to frame some possibilities. However, I don't really know what led the engineers to this design. Speculation and guesses wouldn't be fair or satisfactory to either what I gather your question is getting at or to the engineers who hold the answers.

The engineers do not participate in this forum so any comprehensive answer to your question isn't available.

Very infrequently Yamaha engineers interact with keyboardists. During these relatively short sessions you have maybe one question you can ask. If this is your top-line question then you can perhaps hope to have a forum with an engineer and bring up the question then. I don't know if such a thing will happen anytime soon.

 
Posted : 17/12/2021 4:48 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

As per the question.

Why must it go through assignable knobs?

It's a Macro controller.
If you just want to tweak one param with a knob, there are the assignable knobs already.

Correct!

One of the major issues with intelligently controlling multiple Parts simultaneously is being able to have a single controlling gesture adjust exactly what you require in each of the target parameters. Volume is the easiest perhaps to understand.

When you do MIDI channel layering (as in the previous Motif series, where 4 Parts were addressed on a single MIDI Channel) — say you put 8 Parts on the same MIDI channel. If you set a controller to send CC7, you can adjust the volume of all eight Parts with a single controlling gesture. But all the Parts receiving CC7 from your controller jump to the same value… of course, you could opt out — have a Part ignore CC7 messages… but that’s it. This may be fine, if that is the limit of your use of layer multiple Parts.
Ok, say you use CC11 to address output level, now all 8 Parts will respond, and they will maintain their proportional relationship to each other as you change the level. And once again, you can opt in or opt out. But that’s it.

But what if you want to turn up the Drums in Part 1 and the Bass in Part 2 (which are under arp control), and turn up the E.Piano in Part 3, turn down the Strings in Part 4, completely turn down the guitar in Part 5, and turn up the Pad… and so on. The Super Knob move is the one gesture, the individual Part Assign Knobs can be set and scaled to the precise increase, precise decrease, or whatever movement you desire - this is down in the Control Set of the Part; the Common Assign Knobs, allow you to refine control, reverse direction, and include control over shared processors… intelligently controlling each Part.

The Super Knob, being “super” does not just interact with the 8 KBD CTRL Parts, it can simultaneously be intelligently changing parameters in any and all 16 Parts and the Common/Audio level of the current Performance, simultaneously.

The way it does this is through the network of common and Part Assign Knobs.

Many of the Yamaha synth engineers are keyboard players (don’t know where you are getting your information or why you think that is some signifiant point that needs to be made. Curious).
The Super Knob is a directly assignable controller in the REMOTE DAW Layer — you can use it as you would any other single (non-super) knob.

Link — Super Knob Tutorial — Part 1

 
Posted : 17/12/2021 10:41 pm
Posts: 1717
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Topic starter
 

As per the question.

Why must it go through assignable knobs?

It's a Macro controller.
If you just want to tweak one param with a knob, there are the assignable knobs already.

Correct!

That doesn't answer "WHY".

And the absolutely non-sensical "if you want... etc" is incorrect extrapolation.

I'm going to go with, until otherwise corrected: Yamaha doesn't use Product Managers.

 
Posted : 17/12/2021 10:46 pm
Antony
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The way I look at this is:-

Imagine there is NO Superknob.

Q: I wish to assign a parameter value (parameter 1) to a knob on the MODX for real time changes. Is there a knob available for doing this?

A: Yes there is. In fact, there are 4 Physical Knobs, 8 Virtual Assignable Knobs (Assign 1-4 Solid LED, Assign 5-8 Flashing LED).

------'

Q: I realise I need to assign more parameter values (parms 2, 3 & 4). But I have already used 1 Knob. Can I do this?

A: Yes you can. There are 7 more Assignable Knobs available, that you have not used yet. If you want to control all parameters in a single motion (knob turn) you can also assign parms 2, 3 & 4 to the same knob you used for parameter 1 - just make sure the value curves are appropriate for each parameter (low to high, high to low etc).

-------

Q: I have assigned multiple parameters to each of the 8 Assignable Knobs. I have realised when I am playing live on stage, it is impossible to reach and turn all the knobs I need, to all the values I need... and stay in time with the band. Is there a way to automate this into a single knob?

A: In this Scenario, No, because we have assumed we don't have a Superknob (like every other keyboard Synth except the MODX and Montage).
You could hire 2 friends to stand next to your keyboard and train them to turn the right assignable knobs by the right amount on your command. Good luck with that, and hopefully they are willing to assist for Beer and Food only.
You could also rethink your Assign Control design and bundle common priority functions onto to just one or two knobs.

But... this is hypothetical. We DO have a SuperKnob and its SOLE purpose is to provide automated MACRO Control over multiple MICRO Control Assignable Knobs. It will turn whichever Assignable Knobs, by whatever amount you tell it (program it) to. It replaces your two hired buddies who will work for Beer and Food.

--------

Q: The Superknob has an LED "Dial Value" indicator, which I find useful. I can't see what value is dialled in on Standard Assignable Knobs. Why can't I just use the Superknob to directly assign parameters to.

A: The short answer is... the Hardware and Software design of the SuperKnob was never intended to incorporate this. It's function, because of design, is limited to Macro Control (see above).

Regarding Value Indicators, there are some Options on MODX.

In the Performance Home Screen, the Assignable Knob Position Indicators are displayed across the top of the Screen (Assign Knob 1 - 8). The Default name is "Assign 1", "Assign 2" etc.

But you can change the displayed name in the Edit Menus to something more meaningful. Example "Brass Attk", "LPF Cutoff", "LFO Rate", "Delay Rpts", "Revb Diff" etc.

You could upgrade to a Yamaha Montage to get 8 Physical Assign Knobs WITH LED dial value indicators. MODX is budget friendly, you can't have your cake and eat it as they say.

-----

Q: Why can't I just automate a Standard Assign Knob and not have to bother with the SuperKnob.

A: Evolution of design over decades. The SuperKnob is an ADD ON specifically designed to Automate standard Assign Knobs... Single or Multiple.

In its simplest form. Assign desired parameters to a Standard Assign Knob. Assign 1:1 control of that Assign knob to the SuperKnob. Automate the Superknob (Motion Control).

This makes workflow sense. You have Motion Control associated with only 1 knob (The Superknob) instead of 8. Imagine how rapidly confusion would set in with Motion Control programming for 8 different knobs. Also how much Processor time it would chew up.

Afterthought...

My personal philosophy learned from playing guitar is to limit "Live" control variables to an absolute bare minimum. This requires identifying Criticals, and discarding the rest. In reality, having all the whistles and bells, will likely "be forgotten" in the heat of the moment, but also make things harder to troubleshoot on the fly.

This has carried over onto my sound design on the MODX. If I have decided on a Factory Performance as a base template, the first thing I do is DELETE ALL the Assigns... literally everything.

I have no desire to employ or try to understand someone elses "control logic". I will build my own Controls from the ground up as they fit my needs and make sense to me. Testament to my musical tastes, I have never needed the Superknob yet, but I am glad it is there and understand how and when to use it.

 
Posted : 18/12/2021 12:49 am
Posts: 1717
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Topic starter
 

Antony, RESPECT!

Exactly understand where you're coming from, but for one crucial difference of opinion:

The Mod Wheel.

I often use the Mod Wheel as a temporary testing tool for values I want to animate or change - wire them to it, twiddle away.

Many times, I'd like to build out these to the SuperKnob (some fo them, at any rate) and have them integrate with that without having to go through assignable knobs, that I'm often using for other things, and are often geared to the SuperKnob in other byzantine ways.

The "safety" arguments about users getting into strife with direct access to the Super Knob to values I'd also argue with, by way of the mantras around Singletons and Statics in coding.

It might make some sense to theoretically consider these things to be potential areas of liability and spaghetti relationships, but the reality is much different - Singletons and Statics have their rightful place and needs, and are often far and away the best option.... as would being able to quickly wire up a value to a direct relationship with the SuperKnob, not least because of the other things the SuperKnob is already doing.

 
Posted : 18/12/2021 1:10 am
Jason
Posts: 7930
Illustrious Member
 

My interpretation of the question is:

Why can't superknob just be a direct source controller in all the Parts just like FC1, FC2, and other global controllers can be. Because one can imagine superknob direct connect would have a curve you can reverse the ratio to achieve rotational reversal versus superknob and ratio to approximate limiting the "range" and assignments or lack of assignments to equate to super knob link. Then superknob can directly access the parameter(s) it currently needs to pass through a Common assignable knob which ties up a scarce resource (one of 8 assignable knobs at the common level) and another semi-scarce resource of a Part-level assignable knob. The trail of child knobs also "ties up" the use of these dependent knobs for other things. Respecting that there are only 16 possible destinations assignments - there still appears to be down-sides to the current system that would be otherwise "improved" by direct superknob assignments to Part-level destination parameters. Beyond what's been mentioned, usability is improved when you make superknob operate like the other source controllers. Early in Montage it was more difficult to explain the chain reaction required to be setup to get to the final destination as superknob was one of the few controllers (that and common assignable knobs) with intermediate connections required to route to the final destination parameter(s). Eventually firmware added the capability to more easily assign the superknob to a destination with automagic assignments of the intermediate assignable "child" knobs.

... at least that's my guess.

So I think I understand the question and where it's coming from. And if this interpretation is correct, I "get it" and have no contrary opinions about the alternative as an improvement. However, although I have educated guesses - I ultimately cannot know exactly why the system arrived here.

 
Posted : 18/12/2021 2:45 am
Dragos
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

As per the question.

Why must it go through assignable knobs?

It's a Macro controller.
If you just want to tweak one param with a knob, there are the assignable knobs already.

Correct!

That doesn't answer "WHY".

And the absolutely non-sensical "if you want... etc" is incorrect extrapolation.

I'm going to go with, until otherwise corrected: Yamaha doesn't use Product Managers.

It does answer your question completely and correctly, but of course when you are determined to act as a dumb troll, this doesn't matter at all.

 
Posted : 18/12/2021 8:13 am
Posts: 1717
Member Admin
Topic starter
 

As per the question.

Why must it go through assignable knobs?

It's a Macro controller.
If you just want to tweak one param with a knob, there are the assignable knobs already.

Correct!

That doesn't answer "WHY".

And the absolutely non-sensical "if you want... etc" is incorrect extrapolation.

I'm going to go with, until otherwise corrected: Yamaha doesn't use Product Managers.

It does answer your question completely and correctly, but of course when you are determined to act as a dumb troll, this doesn't matter at all.

It's a serious question, regardless of your thoughts on the matter, and your desire to resort to passive aggression and name calling, there are many legitimate reasons to wonder why things like this were left off the table for end users to more rapidly and intuitively create desired outcomes.

And there's a history of this particularly glaring omission for directness being recognised, through time, by Yamaha via their insertion of a workflow that provides a pseudo and convoluted "direct" way for certain levels of values to be driven by the SuperKnob.

All the voting in the world won't make this sort of thing more directly possible if there's valid technological barriers to providing this.

Hence the question...

But you probably knew that.

 
Posted : 18/12/2021 8:44 am
Dragos
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

It's a serious question, regardless of your thoughts on the matter, and your desire to resort to passive aggression and name calling, there are many legitimate reasons to wonder why things like this were left off the table for end users to more rapidly and intuitively create desired outcomes.

Not at all, it's pure trolling, like all you've been doing on this forum for a long time.

 
Posted : 18/12/2021 10:17 am
Posts: 1717
Member Admin
Topic starter
 

It's a serious question, regardless of your thoughts on the matter, and your desire to resort to passive aggression and name calling, there are many legitimate reasons to wonder why things like this were left off the table for end users to more rapidly and intuitively create desired outcomes.

Not at all, it's pure trolling, like all you've been doing on this forum for a long time.

Brings a quote to mind: "A thief believes everybody steals".

 
Posted : 18/12/2021 11:14 am
Michel
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

This podcast from Yamaha explains their process quite well and talks about the superknob behaviour, etc.:

https://soundcloud.com/yamahasynth/bts044-ben-israel-synthchat

 
Posted : 19/12/2021 5:00 am
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