Thank you very much!

Thank you Rod, can i share this post on Moessieurs ?

Hello Joel - thank you, and of course share on your excellent website - I'd be honoured! I'm still tinkering with the 'Mexican Trumpet' after BM and Jason showed the way - but it's a tad tricky when a note needs to be a third going up but a fourth coming down (I've switched to 'La Paloma' for a test piece). I'm beginning to think even Montage can't manage it!

This is where the extra keys may be able to come in - so you'd play a very specific part with one finger but still "render" the part you want.

It's the kind of thing I would say to get a piece of paper out and map out the notes then, with an understanding of the microtuning engine, see if you have keys along the 12 white and black to give you a pattern which ends up like you want. It's very specific to the line you're trying to play. So it becomes more difficult to present a general case that applies. The general cases were to have you learn the concepts then apply to your particular goal. All I can do is contrived - which will not match what you are doing so you cannot directly "copy" the contrived solution - you've got to internalize the hows and whys of the instructions. Or, there's always the practice route.

C D E F G A B C going up
E F G A B C D E

C D E F G A Bb C going down
E F G A Bb C D E

Didn't have to change both - but why not.

The "E" (PART 2) noteshift +3, so when you play a "C" it starts on Eb without microtuning

w/o microtuning. Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

So Eb, Bb and Ab need +99 on the way up and just Eb and Ab on the way down. We'll have to use a black key or two for the differences.

I'll but "?" for doesn't matter if we're playing all white keys

C=0 C#=? D=0 D#=+99 E=? F=0 F#=? G=0 G#=+99 A=? A#=+99 B=?

Those "?" are because when playing the white keys, we don't hit those. (you never hit the first black key, a C# playing all white keys - and C# +3 note shift is "E" - that's why the "E=?" has the question mark - you're not going to hit that for the microtuned adjusted part - so it's open for doing something else with).

Then on the way down, you need that Bb to not be micro-tuned up a 1/2 step - it should stay a Bb. Wonder if there's a way to play a black key to make this happen naturally.

On the way up:

Push C (sound noteshift+3 = Eb plus microtune+99=E)
Push D (sound noteshift+3 = F plus microtune+00 = F)
Push E (sound noteshift+3 = G plus microtune+00 = G)
Push F (sound noteshift+3 = Ab plus microtune+99=A)
Push G (sound noteshift+3 = Bb plus microtune+99=B)
Push A (sound noteshift+3 = C plus microtune+00 = C)
Push B (sound noteshift+3 = D plus microtune+00 = D)

To make the Bb happen - if we play a G# then noteshift +3 is a B natural. B natural is already set in the above summary as B=? for the noteshift part. Therefore, it's free to assign in the microtuning. Great, lets make B=-99 and play the G# on the way down instead of a G. That will mess up our 1st PART which previously didn't have a microtune - so we'll have to clean that up.

Cleaning up the 1st part (non note-shifted) just set the microtune for G# to G#=-99. Ok, that fixes the scale going up and down if all I wanted was the "B" in the 2nd trumpet part to be natural going up and flat going down - and using the G# key (or G natural key) as a choice to make this interval minor or major.

Now I need to see if I can make that Bb in the first part work to make the 7th scalar note a major vs. a minor interval.

First I start with the 1st trumpet. Play a Bb instead of a B on the way down - no microtuning change for this because I know for the 1st part, the Bb key is open to play (has no microtuning assigned) and is not transposed - so a Bb is a Bb.

Now moving the 2nd trumpet part which is note shifted +3. Playing a Bb doesn't conflict with the other work we've done. Bb noteshift +3 will sound a Db - and we need that +99. So the question is - is Db (C#) available? Yes, I see I had C#=? so we can pencil in (or even use a sharpie) C#=+99 to make that Db sound as a D natural when we play a Bb on the keyboard for the 1st trumpet to play the Bb sound on the way down.

So let me see if I can pull together the 2nd trumpet:

C=0 C#=? D=0 D#=+99 E=? F=0 F#=? G=0 G#=+99 A=? A#=+99 B=?
is what I started with, adding:
B=-99 to make the B a Bb on the way down (by playing a G#) and
C#=+99 to fix the Db back to a "D" when the Bb is played on the keyboard on the way down to make the 1st trumpet play a Bb.

Filling it in:

C=0 C#=+99 D=0 D#=+99 E=? F=0 F#=? G=0 G#=+99 A=? A#=+99 B=-99

Notice I have some "don't care" values for E, F#, and A. These are still free for other uses of the ebony keys. You can set all of these to 0 - but it really doesn't matter as long as you stick to your assigned keys - C D E F G or G# A B or Bb

Part 2 final: C=0 C#=+99 D=0 D#=+99 E=0 F=0 F#=0 G=0 G#=+99 A=0 A#=+99 B=-99

Ok, now part 1's microtuning.

All we have is G#=-99. So we can set all to 0 except G#

Part 1 final: C=0 C#=0 D=0 D#=0 E=0 F=0 F#=0 G=0 G#=-99 A=0 A#=0 B=0

Again, play the C scale on the way up (all white notes) then play Bb and Ab on the way down:

Keys you play on way up: C D E F G A B C ---> going this way
Keys you play on way down: C D E F G# A Bb C <--- going this way
..spelled in flats
Keys you play on way down: C D E F Ab A Bb C <--- going this way

Do not play the Bb (play a B on the way down) if you want that interval to be minor instead of major. Or use the G natural instead of Ab if you want that interval to be major.

Hope that works out - i sometimes get my transpositions backwards - so hopefully I kept it straight.

I've been playing with this mapping - and it does lots of cool musical things in the genre already. Maybe it will work as-is for you. If you're playing chromatic lines - the G# area is a little backwards because of the treatment we were stuck with. So you should play chromatic notes up to F# then play G# then G natural then A natural - then chromatic the rest of the way. Playing chromatically goes outside of the original intent - but there are nice things setup like if I play C D E F Eb E natural. That line sounds good. Really doesn't deal with our new mapping yet. The Line starting on a high C "C down to Bb down to Ab down to E down to C" is a line I hear a lot of. Take it for a spin.

A button accordion line would be interesting to work out fully with microtuning as just something to experiment with.

Hello Jason - Wow! You've really put the hours in on this! I have concluded, as you, that Montage cannot reproduce single note dyads, by their very nature, without resorting to the black notes. Depends on the piece being played, of course, but in the main it is unlikely. Especially with Spanish/Mexican music. I'm not on Montage, but I have followed your reasoning and see where you're at. I think I know my scales, but the difference is that you understand them! I hope to be trying out your ideas tomorrow - I do so enjoy it when a trial unexpectedly produces something especially pleasing or interesting! Thank you for the insights ...

I don't see what the problem with using notes outside of the key of "C" to get what you want - it's still just a single note at a time with the harmony auto-generated. I thought this was right up the alley of what you wanted. Didn't think you had to have everything in the key of "C".

You have to change something to get a difference: modwheel, assignable switches, velocity, etc. There's other ways - but they're even more difficult to setup.

I'd suggest getting familiar with Bb and Ab.

You can still use all white keys for the diatonic lines - but you have to change one or two notes if you want different intervals. Still one finger at a time.