The assignable knobs assume a different personality assuming what mode the keyboard is in.

Sometimes they're "Control Assign" (I call this global - or the knobs directly and always controlled by superknob). This is the mode the knobs are in when you press [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) -and- the [ASSIGN] button (left of superknob) is lit. The global Assign Knob 1 generates:

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
0000372C 1 -- F0 Buffer: 11 Bytes System Exclusive
SYSX: F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 30 40 53 2C F7

When you select a part, they become PART (#) Assignable Knobs. Each part has 8 Knobs. When the assignable knobs are in PART mode, they generate:

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
0002DA8D 1 -- B0 11(J note: through 18) 34 1 --- Control Change
0002DAA2 1 -- B0 11 35 1 --- Control Change

Which is why a VSTi would pick this up - a "normal" MIDI.

They can also be in the mode for a matrix of functions: TONE; EQ/FX; or ARP/MS

These are not actually assignable knobs - but the assignable knobs are replaced by these hard-coded knobs with the functions printed on the text above the knobs. The mode is selected by pressing the [TONE] or [EQ/FX] or [ARP/MS] button.

Here, knob 1 is for [TONE] is:

00083A77 1 -- B0 4A 2E 1 --- CC: Brightness

Knob 1 for [EQ/FX] is:

0008EB94 1 -- F0 Buffer: 11 Bytes System Exclusive
SYSX: F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 00 55 43 F7

Knob 1 for [ARP/MS] is:

00095AB4 1 -- F0 Buffer: 12 Bytes System Exclusive
SYSX: F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 00 72 00 66 F7

As you can see, some knobs map to standard MIDI control codes and some are for internal (proprietary) use.

There's a discussion elsewhere with more of a mapping - but I think the documentation also covers this perhaps in the MIDI implementation. Discussion is here for completeness - but I do not think you're concerned about the non-assignable-knob use of these knobs.

Getting back to the global vs. part assignable knobs. You'll notice when the knobs are global - you see a green LED on the far-left (left of the faders) that shows "PART 1-8" with the green LED lit. When you select a part, you notice the "ELEMENT/OPERATOR" LED is illuminated. Later firmware allows you to save the PERFORMANCE so it starts off in "ELEMENT/OPERATOR" mode - which would also mean the assignable knobs should default to something that can be used by your VSTi.

I'm using MIDI-OX to look at what the Montage is sending out USB MIDI which is where the above MIDI data is coming from. I'd generally use it to learn about what's going on and bring in the documentation to fill in any blanks. But also, in this case, a general overview of how the knobs change modes is important to understand.

Since I do not use VSTi / DAW / etc - and hardly any MIDI - I do not know what options are available to force Montage in the mode you want through software. It's pretty much a single button press at the keyboard - so not much overhead there. And considering you can save performances with the mode already selected as you want - seems reasonable.

Jason:

First of all, thank you for the timeliness and level of detail in your replies in my posts over the past week. The Montage is truly an amazing instrument and we all need each other to better understand it's capabilities and discover new ways of using it.

To summarize what you've said above, basically the 8 assignable knobs when in "Control Assign" or "Global" mode CANNOT and DO NOT send MIDI CC messages, just SYSEX. Only when they are in PART mode do they send MIDI CC. True or False?

So my next question then is, when I assign the "Global" Knob 1 to Part 1 Assign 1 (from the "Edit Common / Audio --> Control" screen), why isn't MIDI CC sent from Part 1 Assign 1 (like it does when I actually physically move the Part 1 Assign 1 knob, ie when the part is selected and I move knob 1)? Global Knob 1 is moving Part 1 Assign 1 knob isn't it? (or would the Global knob only move the a parameter assigned to Part 1 Assign 1).

Cheers.

I believe the global assign knobs are SysEx only. The part-level assignable knobs actually have configurable control numbers under the EDIT-Common/Audio screen (Touchscreen "Control" -> "Control Number" menu -- you get to this "area" by pressing [PERFORMANCE] (HOME), then [EDIT] buttons).

The "why" is probably because that's the best system considering MIDI has a channel per PART. So they can send each of the 8 assignable knobs in CC messages on MIDI channel 1 for part 1, another 8 on MIDI channel 2 for part 2, and so on. There's not a 17th MIDI channel for globals - so they (Yamaha) elected to go SysEx with it.

I'm not a MIDI expert - and I'm also just another keyboard player like you. So all I can do is speculate. Ultimately, the rationale doesn't help solve what you're trying to do - so eventually you'll have to use the tools available to get from A-to-B. My suggestion was to save the performance so the default is not to end up with global knob control. This is a new firmware feature (certainly available in v1.20) to enable saving the keyboard's state as ELEMENT/OPERATOR mode.

The global assign knobs 1-8 aren't linked to anything in particular. They COULD be linked as you described, but they often are not. There are no real rules here about which knob will be assigned to which part and which knob of the part. You have a "pool" of possible destination assignable knobs (Part 1-16 and each part with its own 8 assignable knobs). So that's 16x8 = 128 possible knobs in a pool of possibilities. YOU (or the preset) assign how 8 of the global knobs "tie" to any of the 128 available PART-level knobs. One global knob can tie to more than one PART's knob. Or one global knob can tie to more than one knob of the same part.

Examples:

Global knob 1 - tied to: Part 1, Assignable Knob 6 [+] (AND) Part 4, Assignable Knob 3
Global knob 2 - tied to: Part 1, Assignable Knob 1 [+] Part 1, Assignable Knob 8
Global knob 3 - tied to: Part 6, Assignable Knob 2
Global knob 4 - tied to: nothing
Global knob 6 - tied to: A parameter (there are a handful of global parameters available - not everything has to be a knob)
Global knob 7 - tied to: A parameter [+] Part 5, Assignable Knob 6

So it's a virtual operator switchboard (or "patch panel") where you can tie as you please (with one limitation - see next).

As you dig in deeper, you'll find an eventual limit in destinations. This applies to each part and also the global assignable knobs. Therefore, you the operator, are only given 16 patch cables to connect the 128 possibilities. Choose wisely. Normally, this is not an issue and I have yet to run into a case where I was patch-cable (destination) limited. But there are cases where this can happen and you will need to decide what controls to throw overboard if this happens.

Edit: just to be clear, at the "global" level - you get 16 virtual cables. This defines how many strings you can have between the global and "local" (PART) level. Now, at the PART level - each PART has a set of 16 patch cables to tie the PART assignable knobs to the destinations available within the PART. These destinations are finally where parameters can be offset as a result of all these knobs turning.

So part 1 has 16 of its own part-level virtual patch cables (destinations) which connect a PART assignable knob to a destination parameter
part 2 has 16 of its own part-level virtual patch cables "
... and so on through part 16 - again with 16 of its own part-level destinations.

Jason:

I agree and think I follow everything you are saying. The question still remains, when we link the "Global" aka "Assign 1" knob to the "Part 1 Assign 1 Knob" why isn't the MIDI associated with Part 1 Assign 1 knob not sent (ie CC 17 by default) when we move the Global Assign 1 knob. Yes, we all know that if we assign a system parameter to say Part 1 Assign 1 and link it to Assign 1, Assign 1 will move that parameter inside of Part 1 - that's easy, the part that I can't get to work is to get the Global Assign 1 knob to move Part 1 Assign 1 knob and get MIDI CC 17 sent (even though I have them linked). The dream would be able to send the MIDI CC from Part 1 Assign 1 via the Global Assign knob just like when the actual part is selected. ie Actuate the Part 1 Assign 1 knob using the Global Assign 1 knob, instead of having to select the Part and move the "Part 1 Assign 1" knob directly.

The huge advantage of using the Global knobs to "actuate" the Part knobs (ie Part 1 Knob 1, Part 1 Knob 2.... Part 8 Knob 8) would be that the Part wouldn't have to be selected AND of course you could link the Global knobs to the Super knob!!! Imagine being able to control multiple parameters in a VSTi and locally at the same time with the Super Knob - that's the dream. You could also have Montage parts in the same performance and also control their parameters at the same time with the superknob. I can think of so many cool things that would be possible.

One simple workaround I know of is to setup a Macro Knob in your DAW or VST Host to control all the VSTi parameters you wish and simply map the Montage's Super Knob to this macro. I tested and it works. Especially cool is using the FC7 to move the Superknob freeing up two hands to play. That said, it'd be way more sexy to just map the Part Knobs to the VSTi parameters, link the Global Knobs to the Part knobs, and the Superknob to the Global knobs.... then we wouldn't have to setup macros.

Anyways Jason or anyone feel free to chime in..... Bad Mister? Can we send MIDI CC17 from Part 1 Assign 1 by moving Global Assign 1 (ie by moving knob 1 when Part 1 is unselected)? <--- this is the question - I would have thought simply linking the knobs would make this work..

Bad Mister? Can we send MIDI CC17 from Part 1 Assign 1 by moving Global Assign 1 (ie by moving knob 1 when Part 1 is unselected)? <--- this is the question - I would have thought simply linking the knobs would make this work..

No. It's not that complicated (or maybe it is...) 🙂

First thing to understand is: You must *select* the Part for it to be controlled. So you must select your Part that is setup to control your external device for the Zone to be active. Selecting it means it must be under KBD CTRL or directly selected via [PART SELECT].

With the Part directly selected, you have 8 Assignable Knobs that can be used to interact with the external device. They default to cc17 - cc24, but you can set them to any cc you require 1-95.

Next: No you cannot link the Super Knob to control your external device by using the "Part 1 Assign 1" link. If you want to control your external device two conditions must exist...
1) The Part controlling the external Zone must be active
2) you must move its Part Assign Knob directly.

You will notice that when controlling your external device, the rotary encoder LEDs do not animate. This causes many to scratch their heads but the rotary encoder LEDs always indicate the current value of the internal Montage parameter adjusted by the Knob movement. If you are not adjusting an internal sound with that Knob, quite naturally, the value does not change.

Your external device's value is not known to the controller. The graphic user interface of the VSTi will animate for the plugin.

External devices can respond to physical controllers on the Master keyboard - this is true throughout MIDI.
If you move or apply a physical controller on the Montage it generates a MIDI message and external devices can record it, document it, and even react to it. This is true about physical controllers throughout MIDI... they take a physical movement or application and generate a controlling message.

Moving the physical MW, for example, sends a MIDI command (cc001), stepping on a physical Sustain pedal (cc064), even physically turning the Super Knob can send a cc message, just as physically turning the Assign Knobs can send cc017-024 Out via MIDI.

But you are not physically turning any Assign Knob when you create a link to the Super Knob. That's why you are not getting anything.

Sorry, your external device is simply not apart of the Montage. Therefore you must address it by physically engaging the physical controller.

Don't let this confuse you, but in many, many instances (most, in fact) the Montage is not using Control Change messages to address itself. When you map rotary encoder #1 to send cc17 out via MIDI, the Montage is not using that message to control itself. What I mean is: You could change the cc number that goes Out via MIDI without affecting the internal assignment. The Montage assignment matrix allows the controller to address the parameter directly. When you are on the Control Assign screen - you are not concerned about cc numbers...

Anyway, you are not the only one confused about this MIDI controller situation. What controllers do Out via MIDI, is independent of what they do internally... And to understand why is key in all of this. The CUTOFF Knob in the Tone Row of knobs is cc74... That's why it can be used to offset all the filters together. This is a very near the surface control - cc messages are broad control...

As you know the Assign Knob/Super Knob assignment matrix allows for a much deeper, individually customized control over your multiple Part program. When you assign Assign Knob 1 to address a filter within a Part you have much much deeper focused possibilities. You can address just the filter on the Bassoon in a wind ensemble, just the bass synth in an eight Part Performance, just the resonance on a synth pad... And if you decide to change them all together (link to the Super Knob) you know that each can be scaled and set to move in different directions with differing amounts. That's the whole thing about the controller matrix.... The flexibility.

Chris:

I did read your thread prior to asking my question - it was a good read and very relevant to what I'm talking about. The key piece that I was going after was trying to link the Global knobs to the Part knobs for MIDI control. Of course we can do this for internal parameters and this is one of the key features of the Montage. Its just a shame that we cannot use the same links (eg Superknob to Global Assign knobs to Part knobs) to send the MIDI CC messages associated with the Part knobs without actually having to move the Part knobs physically. We must *select* the part to transmit MIDI from 8 knobs. I needed clarification / confirmation on this so thank-you Bad Mister and Jason and now I can work within this paradigm.

Now that we understand how it all works from the info in both of our threads, here is one possible way we can maximize the use of the knobs (as it applies to a live situation).

- Create an new performance
- Treat Part 1 as dummy part to send CC messages for knobs 1-8 to your DAW or VST host
- Note: Superknob also sends CC 95 (by default) on MIDI Channel 1, so technically we have 9 knobs!
- In your DAW or VST host, configure and map the 8+1 knobs as you wish (ensuring that the parameters mapped for control are listening on MIDI channel 1 in this example). In Ableton, you can even setup macro knobs to control as many parameters as you want, so in theory you could make 8+1 Superknobs if you really wanted to get crazy.
- Use Performance parts 2-8 to create zones to play internal and external instruments as you wish. With respect to the VSTis you decide to include, you just have to make sure that the instruments are listening on the MIDI ports for the zones you intend to play on. Also ensure the mapped parameters you want to respond to the Montage's knobs are set to listen to Part 1 (or Channel 1).
- Play and test everything out.

I don't really mind that much that the Faders are not assignable (as discussed in your thread) 8+1 knobs is more than enough for me. I guess this would suck if you like playing VSTi tonewheel organs (like VB3). In such a case you'd need another controller with faders or a MIDI keyboard with assignable faders.

Bad Mister:

Thank you for the help. I've watched your videos and have read your articles / forum responses for a while. The level of detail that you provide has really helped me learn.

Regards,

Jeff

Other "knobs" ...

Ribbon, mod wheel, FC1, and FC2 get added to the mix of knob-like control with MIDI CC. Although breath controller and pitch bend could be used - the way both physically work do not make for great dials (and BC requires more hardware for more than just full on/off).

Not knobs, but full on/off ...

Footswitch (latching type), Assign SW 1, Assign SW 2, and MS Hold can be for full on/off if there are parameters that work for that form of control. MS Trigger is momentary, so not really a candidate.

And, the more complicated "you could do this, not without some work" ...

Carry a laptop with a MIDI through that will look at SysEx (for faders in PART mode, etc) and "data map" these to something more standard. The basic building blocks I would start with would be Midi-OX and WSH scripting. The software (Midi-OX) doesn't let you "data map" SysEx using built-in functions, so the WSH script (roll your own) is needed. Probably a slew of ways to arrive at the same point - and likely with better stability than using this free software. It's not something I would do - stable or not.

Jason: All great ideas. Possibilities are endless with a Montage connected to a laptop.

Bad Mister or anyone:

I scoured the manuals and online searches about more information on MIDI port 2 on the Montage. Page 50 of the owners manual is very clear on what ports 1 and 3 do, but no information on port 2. How can we use MIDI port 2? In another conversation (see https://yamahasynth.com/forum/zone-or-midi-rec-or-something-g4-dead-key), you state that port 2 is not used - fair enough. From reading Motif manuals, we know that port 2 is traditionally used by Yamaha for mapping DAW controls. Since the Steinberg-Yamaha driver recognizes the Montage's port 2 today, I decided to try and map faders and knobs to my DAW on Port 2 - no luck.

Is port 2 currently disabled in the Montage even though the Yamaha Steinberg driver recognizes it? What are the future plans for port 2? Any way we can use port 2 today?

Cheers.

Jeff wrote:
I scoured the manuals and online searches about more information on MIDI port 2 on the Montage. Page 50 of the owners manual is very clear on what ports 1 and 3 do, but no information on port 2. How can we use MIDI port 2? In another conversation (see https://yamahasynth.com/forum/zone-or-midi-rec-or-something-g4-dead-key), you state that port 2 is not used - fair enough. From reading Motif manuals, we know that port 2 is traditionally used by Yamaha for mapping DAW controls. Since the Steinberg-Yamaha driver recognizes the Montage's port 2 today, I decided to try and map faders and knobs to my DAW on Port 2 - no luck.

Is port 2 currently disabled in the Montage even though the Yamaha Steinberg driver recognizes it? What are the future plans for port 2? Any way we can use port 2 today?

Source: https://yamahasynth.com/blog/montage-and-cubase-setup-guide/572-montage-and-cubase-setup-guide

A Port consists of an In and an Out, each contain 16 Channels. MONTAGE Port 1 is the MIDI Port on which data coming from the MONTAGE is routed to reach a MIDI Track in Cubase. Port 2 is not used. And Port 3 is reserved for a second MIDI device connected to the 5-pin MIDI jacks on the back of Montage. It can be routed as a controller through the system as well. You can, if you wish, use two different keyboards (even simultaneously). The STATE (or STATUS) column will detect if anything is conneccted. If nothing is connected the port is "Inactive".

I was monitoring port 2 for activity, set the keyboard in various modes, and can confirm - from what I could do - did not see any activity on port 2.

Reading this, I did learn that the MIDI ports (Montage standard MIDI) are available to the PC via USB using port 3. Kind of like having an extra USB-to-MIDI cable built in.

With port 2 "not used" I also sent a SysEx to set the superknob (SK) position - just to verify. Port 2 as the target, no SK movement. Port 1 as target - SK did move. Port 3 as target - since MIDI thru - no SK movement. I do not have the standard MIDI out monitored - but I would expect that port, if monitored, to show the SK SysEx when I targeted MONTAGE 3 (USB).

The documentation is consistent and agrees with the above testing. Either through omission (Montage reference manual) or through the Cubase tutorial / forum posts more explicitly stating the port 2 non-use.

Since I do not use MIDI very extensively, DAW/VSTi at all, etc - I didn't have this on my list of items missing from the Motif. I'll need to add this in order to be complete. Certainly switching to any of the DAW modes does not change the USB-presented MIDI port.

Only Yamaha can address more details - but for now we'll need to take "port 2 not used" as gospel and work within that.

Jason:

Thank you for the testing efforts on Montage MIDI Port 2. Bad Mister has been clear in a few places indicating "port 2 not used", but when we see Port 2 recognized by the Steinberg Yamaha driver, one's curiosity is piqued - so naturally we had to give it a try. Based on our tests, we'll live with no port 2.

Bad Mister (or anyone from Yamaha):

What are the plans for MIDI Port 2? Are we going to get access to transport controls and all knobs and sliders via Port 2 one day? That would be awesome in terms of DAW integration. Or is there another surprise in store for Port 2?

Cheers.

With the keyboard in non-DAW mode - I see faders send CC w/data1 as 07, data2 as position, and channel matching fader number (1-8). Doesn't matter if I have zone master on or off. Doesn't matter if device # is all, off, or 1 or 2 ... etc. Doesn't matter if I'm in DAW mode either.

Key is to press "Home" - and do not select a part. Selecting a part will make the faders send SysEx instead of CC. You want the faders to be adjusting global part levels - not internal element/operator levels.

I see that a CC assigned knob like [TONE] + Assign Knob 1 = Cutoff will send CC on the channel corresponding with the selected part as well.

By "same thing" - for [TONE] + Assign Knob 1, for example, it will always be: Data1=4A, Data2=Value (Cutoff offset), Channel = Part selected.

Not sure what you mean by same thing. The data is the same, but channel is different.

Use some software that can look at the MIDI bus and report all traffic to better see what's going on,

Chris wrote:

Jason

Read the recent posts in this link about the faders and zones. Can you please weigh in on it over there?

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/montage-as-control-surface-for-vsti-s

Other than aspirations of changing how it works - what is there to add? The facts are clearly stated.

As I've mentioned before, write down the controls that do what you want on a sheet of paper as a "pool" along with any notes of what mode you need to be in (so you can see how many, at one time, can be physically controlled without changing modes). If your software can pick up SysEx and use that - then your options are wide open. If not - then there's a more limited subset. Write these down and on another column, write down what you're trying to control. Draw lines and prioritize. At some point, you may need to drop something. This is a normal part of the experience - working within the design constraints. Sometimes polyphony trips you up, sometimes simultaneous effects, sometimes MIDI protocol, sometimes built-in resources (memory, mapping, processing speed, etc). Montage is much less constrained than the previous generation (in general).

Chris wrote:

Like I can do this using FL studio only but not Cubase. If I do so I have to load an instance of Diva and set my knobs and then save that file as a template. However if I try to set the midi controls within Divas "learn" function it simply does not work.

The Diva support team mentioned their learning feature is limited and does not comprehend all setups.

I'd be in a better position to help if this were "my thing" - but it isn't. It sounds somewhat like you're using a flashlight as a hammer and maybe at some point will buy a hammer. I see cubase as bridge software as bundled products usually are - something to do a "peanut-butter spread" of features - although perhaps not everything as well as more dedicated tools.

Searching the net, I see suggestions to use drivers which intercept MIDI and reconfigure channels to ports. Maybe that will do something for you.

Maybe Cubase can do what you want, maybe not. Why not try other VST hosts? Find something that works and writeup, to Cubase, the setup in the competing software and see what they say about the feature either working now in Cubase as-is or future roadmap. Steinberg has a drawer full of competitive products and I'm sure keeps tabs on what they're up against.

Maybe someone else can run down the numbers and give a more definitive answer.

Bad Mister or Yamaha:

In this discussion we have learned the following:

- The Global knobs dont send MIDI, just the Part knobs do (ie when a Part is selected)
- Montage MIDI port 2 is recognized by the Yamaha Steinberg driver, but is not used as stated by you in other discussions, and nothing is sent on Port according to our tests

Could you possibly comment if there is a future for Port 2? (It sure would be nice to have DAW control like the MOXF on port 2 and access to all the knobs and sliders one day).

Cheers.