I followed Phil's advice and reached out to Bert who was very helpful and gave a comprehensive and interesting answer which he said I was welcome to quote here:

Bert: "The basic question is, whether it is possible to do track on track MIDI recording on Montage and if so, how to do it?

I have been reading the yamaha synth forum and I have to say my respect for Phil became huge seeing him answering all these difficult questions, so I am more than happy to help out on this particular one.

Of course he is right, it is a midi recorder and not a sequencer. This means, one can sketch ideas and have them stored or exported as midi files. One can not fix mistakes made during the recording, unless you export it to a DAW.

However, I found a fun workaround to make this recorder behave like a multitimbral sequencer.

First of all, I programmed several sounds within one Performance: Piano, strings, bass, drums and clavinet.

Then, I switched off all Keyboard Control (the green buttons in the main screen) so they all became separately available using Part Control (the orange buttons on the right).

I opened the midi recorder, and recorded the piano.

Then I put the recorder in Overdub and added the strings, bass, drums etc. until I had a multitrack recording.

Actually pretty simple.

Before all this, I imported a vocal sample wav from Diana Ross's Upside Down and prepared a Performance with only this sample.

So, at the end of my recording session I basically triggered this Diana Ross sample from the keyboard, in time with the recorded music.

All pretty simple but quite effective, and obviously discussion material!"

hey, whats up, phil,
a couple of weeks ago you wrote here
https://www.yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=6431&Itemid=851
https://www.yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=6943&Itemid=851

All tracks go into record simultaneously on a Direct Performance Recorder - it records as many as 8 Parts in that one pass. You do not record to this sequencer one-at-a-time. All recording to this Recorder happens in one pass. You can punch in but you are punching in on ALL tracks! You do not, you cannot, put just one track in record. I tried to explain that. Let's try again. You cannot put just one track in record. The significance of the Performance Recorder is that ...ALL TRACKS go into record.

so you made it absolutely clear that ONLY simultaneous recording of tracks is possible (instead of consecutively).
in sharp contrast to your above statements you now say that one IS in fact able to record one track after the other. the question was:
Is it possible to do track-on-track MIDI recording on the Montage sequencer (first record piano, then bass, then drums, etc...).
your answer was

Yes.

i´m stumped, actually. can you please unravel the mystery, please? thanks.

Sorry, if it is not clear. But because you can do track by track recording does not change the fact that all tracks go into record... Nor does it change the fact that it was designed to record a PERFORMANCE.

Let's say you do not heed the way the direct Performance Recorder works best and insist on track-by-track (traditional sequencing: defined as the art of recording one track at a time, and overdubbing new material, in a series of sequential passes)

If you use REPLACE record, well, when all tracks go into record you REPLACE all tracks with what you are doing now
If you use OVERDUB record, well, when all tracks go into record you can add new stuff to what you already have recorded. This is called Overdubbing...
If you use PUNCH IN and OUT, well, this is a type of REPLACE recording.. say you recorded track by track and want to punch in on track 2... well, all tracks go into record. You wipe out what you did. WHY? Because you are not using the PERFORMANCE RECORDER as it was designed. And because ALL Tracks go into record.

So you can *try* to make this do whatever you wish. I highly recommend you first pay close attention to how it actually works (now) and attempt to understand what it was actually designed to do... that is when it makes the most (and only) sense. Instead of trying to figure away *around* the concept in play. It is not a workstation because it does not work that way.

It was designed for you to put down an idea you have using the various tools available to a single PERFORMANCE (which includes real time play, arpeggios, motion sequences, etc. etc. etc. > It is designed to capture your interaction with a single PERFORMANCE in a single pass.

If you want to punch in on your PERFORMANCE, it is not an issue... since you are recording all tracks, ALL TRACKS going into record is not a problem. You are using it as intended. Recording your directly play and recording arpeggios simultaneously is an issue for your DAW (the Montage records itself and you can export this data to your DAW).

Yes, you can/could record one track at a time. You will quickly learn that this is *not* what this Direct Performance Record was intended to do - you are bending your elbow in a direction it does not go... sure you can do it, but I don't recommend it for too long.

It is a "sketch pad" for recording what Montage does. It also is a playback device... for multi-part MIDI files _ you can play a GM file using it. It plays back 16 Tracks, 16 MIDI channels. It simply is not the tool you use to make them... you use your DAW to assemble your recording.

You have folks here not fully understanding how MIDI works, (some clearly do/some clearly don't); nor do they understand how *this* recorder needs to works. If you are attempting do to this without having a Montage, we are trying our best to let you know
1) how it was designed to work _ the intended purpose. Once you understand its intended purpose, then and only then can you have a meaningful conversation about what you might need it to do or what you might wish it did. But until you understand that the folks who made it, made this way ON PURPOSE, actually. I can just keep repeating the same facts.
2) if you think you can workaround this with your old workflow - or if you think you need to explain to Yamaha how they should have designed the sequencer for your workflow. I simply ask that you spend some time with the Montage, get an idea of what it is doing, get some idea of how it is doing what it does, then and only then start to think about how you can use it for your external devices or for making music.

Certainly, there are several new concepts to grasp... Obviously you can record first piano, then bass, then drums... this does not mean it was designed (as in optimized) to do this. In fact it was designed and optimized to record multiple things simultaneously! In anticipation of you exporting said recording to your DAW (as .MID or as a .WAV)... yes the PLAY/REC feature allows you to record audio directly to a USB stick.

Many think they are going to record Montage and then drop in and use their mouse to edit their controllers... hmmm, smh.. Not gonna happen exactly as they are thinking because the synthesis engine is addressing multiple PARTs in many cases. There are some new concepts that need to be appreciated.

You cannot erase a track - it is designed to record your entire idea as a single pass.
this does not mean you HAVE to, but ...

I used the Arpeggiator for drums and outlined an entire composition of 175 measures with fill-ins etc... using the SCENE buttons to place the main section grooves, and to place the Fill-ins where I desired. I saved this as a .mid file

I then went back and overdubbed (OVERDUB) a multi Part Performance - that certainly is a viable workflow. But with no editing, basically no frills... the PERFORMANCE RECORDER simply allows the Montage owner to quickly capture your idea as either MIDI or AUDIO (to a USB stick) and then EXPORT this to your DAW... for editing and adding new functions.

If you don't make it more than it is, you will not get into trouble. Because the Montage utilizes MULTIPLE PART PERFORMANCES quickly rendering audio is a major part of your workflow. You are not going to amass 16 PARTS of MIDI and play them back _ we know how to build that type of sequencer and have been building that type of sequencer since the early 1990's - this is not that type of sequencer.

It is a Direct Performance Recorder for documenting as MIDI or as AUDIO your interaction with a PERFORMANCE. Yes you can extend it to do a bit more. But once you get Montage and see just what you can control simultaneously within a PERFORMANCE, and how recording this is not for the meek MIDI user, you may find that a Direct Performance Recorder is just what the doctor (designer) ordered.

The rendering of audio is the key feature. You have some 32 audio bus outputs.
Many folks who work with MIDI, I find never finish anything... they keep it in MIDI so they can endlessly change their minds. Cool. That's one workflow.
But remember 1 Track does not always equal 1 PART in Montage.

Hope that helps some what.

thank you, phil. i see more clearly now. problem with the overdub workaround is that there seems to be no way to delete mistakes. so the whole recording process gets utterly cumbersome and complicated. i think i speak for all motif users when i say it would be great if yamaha would revisit montage´s recorder. they should implement the mobile music sequencer app code inside montage as part of an update. i´d purchase a board in a nanosecond.

Hello everyone...so, I got the Montage6 linked to Pro Tools (12.4), and I have been working on some MIDI sequences. I currently have the Pro Tools session opened with 8 MIDI tracks and the sound is being generated from the onboard Montage library. It is thrilling to have made it this far without any hurdles. However, every time I hit the spacebar to play the sequence on Pro Tools, all the parameters that I changed on the Montage's mixing board reset, and I have to mix the tracks all over again. I have tried saving the "performance" but that does not help. What am I missing? I have also uploaded the MIDI file onto Montage with every track mapped (SMF1). However, I am still loosing my mix. Is there a way I can save the sequence with every track mixed the way I want it? I will be playing on top of these tracks during live performances and need to be able to call each song fast and properly mixed. Thanks a million!

However, every time I hit the spacebar to play the sequence on Pro Tools, all the parameters that I changed on the Montage's mixing board reset, and I have to mix the tracks all over again. I have tried saving the "performance" but that does not help. What am I missing?

Trying to understand what you mean by "reset", they reset to what condition? If it resets to the stored Performance that should be what you want, but apparently your talking about resetting to some other condition, can you describe that please. Be specific. Thanks.

Ok. Let me see if I can clarify: I have eight MIDI tracks on Pro Tools, about three guitars, some drums, some congas, and horns. I am using the Montage to play the MIDI data, but the sound generated by the Montage comes out as a whole bunch of guitar sounds only. That is, I am loosing my drums, my congas, and my horns. I am also loosing the panning and volume of each track, the mix. I have saved the MIDI file in the SMF0 and SMF1 format to test the Montage's file compatibility, but I get same results. I am also wondering if it is possible to flag or mark specific measures within a song so as to quickly jump back to it during a performance. For example, lets say I want to go back and repeat the bridge of a song, is there a control that would allow me to jump back to it?

Thanks a million!

Ree wrote:

Ok. Let me see if I can clarify: I have eight MIDI tracks on Pro Tools, about three guitars, some drums, some congas, and horns. I am using the Montage to play the MIDI data, but the sound generated by the Montage comes out as a whole bunch of guitar sounds only. That is, I am loosing my drums, my congas, and my horns. I am also loosing the panning and volume of each track, the mix. I have saved the MIDI file in the SMF0 and SMF1 format to test the Montage's file compatibility, but I get same results. I am also wondering if it is possible to flag or mark specific measures within a song so as to quickly jump back to it during a performance. For example, lets say I want to go back and repeat the bridge of a song, is there a control that would allow me to jump back to it?

Thanks a million!

Seems you have these 8 MIDI tracks that information in them that is sending a reset command to Montage. So let's assume as you say you are playing these from Pro Tools...
Try this and let us know...

Press [CATEGORY SEARCH]
Select "INIT"
Select "Multi/GM"
Press [ENTER]

Play you file from Pro Tools.... what happens?

Ok...it helped quite a bit: I'm now getting everything else but the drums and congas.

...moreover, I seem to be having problems with anything that is percussion. Trumpets, saxophones, trombones. guitars, bass, pianos, and strings data seem to transfer very well and play fine on the Montage, but anything that is drums, congas, and bongos are not playing well. I get a piano sound instead. I gave up on the song I wrote about on my first thread and started to work on a second song. However, I am still facing the issue: percussive instruments do not play well on the Montage. What am I overlooking? Some body please help.

Thanks!

Hello everyone,

I've been researching the new Montage keyboard along with everyone on this thread. I currently own, Kurzweil 2500, Yamaha Motif, Korg KRONOS , Roland Extreme. They are all workstations. I've worked with many people in the recording studio with DAWs, but still enjoy creating my own recordings via a workstation with a full sequencer. I'm into recording live tracks with little or no edits. But once in a while when a sustain is too long, or a note was "gliss", it's nice to just quickly edit it in the keyboard's sequencer. I don't need a full blown DAW for that.

Even though Yamaha states that "most" people who buy a keyboard in this price range used DAWs, I still think for those of us whom also "buy in this price range" wants the sequence editor feature in their keyboards. For Yamaha not to include the "editor" part of the sequencers is limiting this part of their musician base that buys this this price range level of keyboards. Why should anyone have to buy a DAW , in addition to buying the Montage just to record with it?

Believe me everyone...I have nothing but big kudos for this new Montage ! It is a killer over the top keyboard when it comes to sounds!!!!! They are out of this world, very beautiful and real and controllable. The layout of the deck makes live performance very easy and fun. You can move fast and performed with the greatest of ease with the Montage. ( which are some of the reasons why I really almost bought it yesterday. ) But... atlas... not having the full sequencer and paying 4K was the clincher for me. Was this a Cost cutter in production, or ..... ????? It's hard to believe it was just due to the fact that Yamaha thinks most people have DAWs. Why limit your market ... your buyers?

Next, when I go into my studio with my current keyboards, all the screens have some sort of "tilt" so you can easily read them. The Montage screen is so flat that you have to lean over it to read everything on the screen. And if there's any over head lighting glares, it's very hard to read the screen. The Motif screen is on a tilt and very readable.

Conclusion: I will hopefully wait for future release and revision of this new keyboard in hope that Yamaha puts the full sequencer in it. I be willing to pay the extra for it. Much cheaper than a full DAW system that would only be used for minor "tweaks". Though I doubt Yamaha will consider re-think Re-Engineering of the Montage internal designs. 🙁

I do wonder though if you can just hook up the "expression pedal" that opens and close the FM on the Motif ! 🙂

Thanks for reading my 2 cents. 😉

Shirley Cason
~:~
My Peaceful World Music
MyPeacefulWorld.com

@Ree

I seem to be having problems with anything that is percussion. Trumpets, saxophones, trombones. guitars, bass, pianos, and strings data seem to transfer very well and play fine on the Montage, but anything that is drums, congas, and bongos are not playing well. I get a piano sound instead. I gave up on the song I wrote about on my first thread and started to work on a second song. However, I am still facing the issue: percussive instruments do not play well on the Montage. What am I overlooking? Some body please help.

Your Pro Tools tracks have Program Change messages but may not have the proper BANK SELECT commands that tell the receiving device to switch to an appropriate bank. Either you or the original author of the MIDI file did not use the right MSB/LSB data. The clue is selecting a Piano sound instead of a drum kit.

Do you know how to edit the event data in Pro Tools?
If yes, change the sound being selected (you call it being reset) those messages at the top of each track tell the receiving device what sound to select. Obviously the original author did not have a Montage, so you will need to either change (edit) that data or remove it and make your own selection per Track.

Yes! That's exactly what's happening. I have been able to change the program on the kick drum but nothing else. Pro Tools gives me so many options from so many different companies, and I don't know what to choose. I see patches from Yamaha but the Montage Model is not included in those banks. Any guidance?

...please disregard my previous request because I just noticed that the Montage is allowing me to send only eight MIDI tracks at a time. I have a song that has 16 midi tracks. How do I tell the Montage to accept all 16? Also, is there a way that I can cue the Montage to play a certain measure of a song. For example, lets say I want to repeat the chorus of a song while singing live and playing on top of my tracks: is there a way I can trigger this function...may a pedal function or a recall button?

Thanks for all your help. I'm almost set with everything I need related to MIDI files. I'll start a new thread for the FM engine. 😀

Got it! For anyone who may read this and works with Pro Tools...to get all 16 channels, go to Setup (top tool bar), choose Peripherals, then MIDI Controllers and, under "Type" select HUI. Under "Receive From" choose Montage1 as your input, and also under "Send To" as your output. There! The first HUI is now set for your first 8 MIDI channels. Then, create a second HUI with Montage2 to receive and send data. This takes care of channels 9-16. Trust me, you will need to do this especially if you are working with old MIDI files and need to re-map patches. Assigning new patches is super easy if you allow Montage local control of your sequences. That way, all you have to do is to choose which Montage's onboard sound to be triggered by your MIDI. One last thing, I suspect that if you create a third HUI, then you can possibly get channels 16-24. However, I don't need that many channels for now.

Bad Mister...God bless.