First, my apology -your question came in during my vacation and I'm just getting around to fully catching up.

The Envelope Follower is a very powerful tool in the Montage arsenal. We'll try to give you an idea of what it can (and cannot) do.

My question - does the envelope follower have the capability to follow and set the tempo/clock as well?

The Envelope Follower source, the source of the envelope shape, can be generated by any audio input. If that audio is using the Montage clock then the Envelope Follower will be creating events that are in tempo, but it can also be completely free of tempo or clock.

Let's define what it is so that you can adjust your question. An "envelope" in music synthesis refers to the overall shape of something. A typical synth might have a Pitch Envelope Generator, a Filter Envelope Generator and an Amplitude Envelope Generator. These "shape" the results.

A PEG is responsible for controlling the change in pitch as the sound begins, sustains and disappears. The Pitch EG of a siren might slowly rise and fall over time, a trombone note might drop off in pitch as time goes forward, a slide whistle is all about Pitch EG.

An FEG is responsible for controlling the change in harmonic content (timbre) over time. Most sounds get brighter as they get louder, a Filter EG can change the timbre of what you hear during a note.

An AEG is responsible for the change in amplitude (loudness) over time. A percussion instrument has a very abrupt beginning with a very rapid drop in energy, before it disappears. It is the AEG that describes the change in what we perceive as loudness as a sound continues. And is by far, the most familiar.

They all can be described in terms: Attack, Decay, Sustain Release. (ADSR). It is the AEG that is referred to in the Envelope Follower. It can create an Amplitude Envelope by analyzing incoming signal. The shape caused by the energy of one sound is used to control another sound.

The source could be you saying the word "Boom!" into a microphone. It would have an immediate Attack, because it is an abrupt sound, then there is some initial Decay. Depending on how many "o's" be put in the length, "Boooooom" is the Sustain, and as soon as you stop moving your vocal cords the Release is rather quick, as well.

This shape, the shape of that audio energy creates the "Envelope". We can now route that to another sound to "Follow". Say we route the energy of our Boom envelope to a big phat synth bass tone. Instead of a key press causing this bass note to play, the bass tone is droning steadily, but if we place it to "Follow" our source "Envelope" we will only hear it during the time you are articulating the "Booooom" sound.

If you articulate "boom, boom, b-b-boom" the bass tone instead of being just a steady drone will "follow" your lead and respond to your exact rhythmic articulations. "Dum, dum, d-d-dum"

One sound creates the Source (Envelope) the other sound Follows that energy.
You can choose to keep your vocal sound audible and mix it with the synth bass or you disconnect the Source from the audio outputs and only have the synth bass (follower) be audible.

So can the Envelope Follower set the tempo? - it certainly can set it for that synth bass sound in our example.
So can the Envelope Follower set the clock? - although I have not done this, yes. An A/D Input can can be used to set as the clock sync source... And even the Montage Master output can be routed to the Envelope Follower as a Source.

Then your concern is about a live band following an Arpeggiator. I've addressed this many times and the only way it really works is if everyone is referencing the same clock source. Many bands wind up putting the entire burden on the drummer. And there are a few monster drummers who can carry that burden and do it well (Bernard "Pretty" Purdue must be mentioned here because he's the best I've ever seen/heard in the studio with this)

But mostly bands just want someone to blame when timing goes awry. If everyone in the band cannot hear the Arpeggiator I can guarantee that at some point disaster will ensue. I equate it to this situation: what if only one violinist could see the Conductor, do you think the entire orchestra would play and remain in time throughout the Symphony? Not a chance. Not going to happen...

Why bands think a single individual as the only one hearing the "Conductor" will work, is a mystery to me.

Many, many live touring acts these days depend on automated sources. Backing vocals, even lead vocals are often 'canned' - the live musicians on stage are basically accompanying the pre-recorded track. There is nothing worse on stage then to have the pre-recorded horn section come in a quarter note behind or ahead of the band! Ouch. How they ensure it works is making sure everyone is on board with the "Conductor".

Recommended:
A good monitoring system. If you can't "see" the Conductor you are doomed to, at some point, have a catastrophe
A central clock source that could be fed to all clockable electronics on stage.

Yes, you can feed the drummer into the Montage as a clock source, but drummers are human. Auto Beat Sync is built into the Montage. You could have the Arpeggios, the Tempo driven Effects and LFOs of Montage follow a person clapping their hands, or the drummers snare drum. But in the real world humans are, at best, unreliable clock sources. And on a noisy stage you don't want to be dependent on that as a source (IMHO). In the controlled setting of the recording studio, not a problem (you get to "do it over" in the studio)!

For on stage: Better would be an electronic clock source that could be fed direct. But the best solution would be having everyone able to hear ("see" the Conductor). So a great Monitor System is a must, an absolute must. I would not recommend serious use of arpeggiators in a live situation until your band can absolutely respect that to introduce something like this requires the cooperation of everyone.

Done right, the reward is worth the effort.

Ahh, the Purdie shuffle. Thanks for the reference.

Worst case, I suppose is it possible to directly control tempo with the super-knob? If there's one thing I like about Korgs, it's the presence of a dedicated tempo button and metronome light.

This echoes my "pain" of losing the tempo knob for manual control. So count this as a "me too"

I'm not aware there's a direct line from superknob to tempo - this is where you have to rely on redirection - maybe burn a resource or two to get the function back. Using the DATA DIAL like an 18 wheeler's steering wheel (instead of the dragster steering wheel of a tempo knob in Motif) is the current best solution I have.

Although it's worthwhile to try the redirection method to try to adjust tempo.

I'll take a second look and see if I can get a knob-to-tempo (with any number of things between) using BM's suggestion.

Again with the Tempo. 🙂

The Tempo on the Montage goes from 5bpm through 300bpm.
The resolution of MIDI (128) would not really work well on a knob for the 295 values you'd need to reach (as is the case with the XF). At best, a knob is good for typical real world relative tempo change adjustments.

Really, no one should care exactly how many turns it takes to go from 5-300 bpm. I'm not saying that you might not have some use for such a thing... Because in music there is a use for almost anything and everything, almost any idea. But I don't think its removal from the compliment of knob-available parameters is a bad thing (I say that fully aware it might be a big deal for someone, and undoubtedly it will be). But I'm sure in a ranking of usefulness, the Knob that was dedicated to tempo ranked fairly low (obviously) on the "I actually use it" questionnaire. 🙂

Your current options on Montage are:
Type in the exact value
Use the Data Dial to move through the available tempi
Use INC/DEC to advance/retreat by increments
Use INC/DEC + SHIFT to move by values of 10
Tap the tempo
Sync the Montage to an external device as tempo master... The options here include via MIDI or via the A/D Input

On the previous Motif Series and current MOXF, which both have tempo Knobs, there were many complaints you couldn't reach all the tempo values by simply turning the knob - so it's usefulness is for general tempo settings - specifically those that a musical ensemble might use in accelerando or ritardando sections. Not exact values... More for creating a sense of speeding up or slowing down (Yet we still receive complaints - obviously you can't please everyone).

The Data Dial (in all models) is velocity sensitive - so the faster you turn it the farther the value changes making it possible to go from minimum to maximum with less turns (although not many compositions I know need to move from 5 to 300bpm or vice verse). This "velocity sensitivity" does take some practice to use properly - I'd guess most folks are totally unaware that it is velocity sensitive. Slowly you can increment each value.

I saw your post where you counted the turns it took to move through the entire range. I was hoping you'd discover on your own that you can traverse the full range in just three turns... Speed kills, I know, but it can get you from point A to point B faster if you drive carefully 🙂

Since Tempo changes can be automated, it really is a moot point.

BM: I edited that post a few times when I was writing it. Had a lower turn count at one point and retested a few times with the higher turn count - so the speed vs. travel must have been what I glossed over in using it since I suppose my speed was more regulated during the second sitting and I didn't connect those dots.

For scrolling through screens of info - this policy is helpful. To try to replace a tempo knob (which, I understand how I fall in the small slice of the pie in Yamaha's market research) - it makes it difficult. 3x rotation is still 3x more rotation than previous and to have to "go fast" (in turning) when you're trying to "slow down" generates a paradox which can be practiced to overcome - but nonetheless "painful".

I still need to go setup the automation using A/D input. I believe this is one of the only ways to automate tempo using a knob as a source. The purpose here is two fold a) manage the scale of knob rotation to tempo change and b) have a knob that does not have a menu dependency (which menu shown) to control tempo.

Looks like to generate a pulse using the destination parameters available, some sort of LFO speed type.

Just in case there was a preset that could "plugged in" and slightly modified - I went through looking for something that would output a different pulse based on superknob (since it moves the common assignable knobs - with a reasonable chance one preset would already do something close). I didn't find one - but I didn't search through everything.

My best next step for the redirected control is to setup an FM-X voice that's something like the "Dr Who" themesong that had a good tutorial by the creator (SoundMondo) https://youtu.be/g6DTUIhrRd4 (earlier referenced by Yamaha). Not generating the same patch - but idea of using LFO as a means to generating a repeating note. And this note can be, in turn, followed.

I'm sure within all the presets there's probably one that does something close - but I need to work on FM-X for my own "learn the synth" purposes as well.

For scrolling through screens of info - this policy is helpful. To try to replace a tempo knob (which, I understand how I fall in the small slice of the pie in Yamaha's market research) - it makes it difficult. 3x rotation is still 3x more rotation than previous and to have to "go fast" (in turning) when you're trying to "slow down" generates a paradox which can be practiced to overcome - but nonetheless "painful".

Sorry, I can't agree, music rarely if ever needs to transition tempo at such extremes... 5bpm to 300bpm seriously, I'm not saying you shouldn't but folks trying to dance might have an issue 🙂

Again, it's simply a matter of real world use, accelerando, ritardando, (for music).
I know, it could be argued for strange weird extremes but try using it on some known musical compositions - a practical use. If you need an abrupt tempo change MIDI allows for that.

Record a song, overdub a ritardando, get a feel for how it works in actual use. Then report back. The thing about turning a knob without listening to how it affects music could cause you to conclude that you might ever need even one complete turn, no less three.

And the topic is "Envelope Follower"... Just saying... Which is new enough for most. It's use for tempo (report back when you've discovered a use for it doing that) in the meantime ... The Envelope Follower's more traditional use would be to use the audio energy of one Part to create an Amplitude Envelope for another.

I have no use for the extremes from nearly 0 - 300. The knob previously was overly sensitive but it's easier to calibrate. I would set it at the 50% mark or so and adjust down - having to move "slower" than seemed intuitive w/the knob since it was sensitive (opposite issue as DATA DIAL - but more manageable due to congruence with the act of slowing down/rit.).

When I try what's available - and I'm giving it a fair shot - even though the (Motif) knob had its downfalls - having to turn something slower (because it's overly sensitive) is easier to manage during a rit. than having to turn something faster than seems intuitive to accomplish the range (or further to get the range - since there is that interplay with the DATA DIAL due to the feature which otherwise helps scrolling through lists).

This is just feedback from one driver which does not seem to match your market research - although there is a group (not just me) who fall into the same category.

I still do not feel I'm at the end of what's available (to try to recapture something that is more usable) - but there are fewer choices for tempo even in the programming department.

Envelope follower is not necessary here since an assignable knob can directly affect LFO and a "click" track can be generated using FM-X and using AEG. I used a square pulse so it's on and off at first. Would prefer to have a duty cycle setting for the LFO as well (short on, long off). The sawtooth is what I ended up with since it peaks and ramps down - still not duty cycle controlled but a bit more bass-drum "thump"ish.

The Part LFO has a user curve which I could use to make the duty cycle - or use the other preset waveforms in Part LFO since 1/4sq is the type of duty cycle I would be after. But Part LFO does not affect the AEG (operator) method I was using - so using the 2nd LFO there are more limits in terms of the waveform.

Not an issue - I can swizzle to use Part LFO and use a different method than the Amplitude modulation of 2nd LFO. There are lots of choices (more for Part LFO) which is why I gravitated towards 2nd LFO (Amp. Modulation is easy to "see" right off the bat).

Even so, using a 50% duty cycle and trying to vary up the pitch/etc did not produce an easy-to-follow clock source. I have the FM-X PART routed out Assign L&R, a patch cable running from Assign L out to A/D in L - and of course turn on A/D in and try to set the gain to something reasonable.

This has not been met with much success although perhaps the duty cycle is causing some issue.

MIDI clock is digital - so that would be easy to follow. Are there any analog clock shapes that Montage is good at following? Since A/D input can set the tempo - I was wondering what kind of stimulus Yamaha uses on their end to test the response range. Whatever this "ideal" A/D input shape is would be what I should be targeting.

I would imagine a square waveform would be best (my first try) as an analog clock - this is what was done before digital.

Of course I turned off reverb/chorus trying to produce the most dry output. Balanced cable would be better than the 1/4" patch in terms of noise rejection - haven't gone this far yet.

I think it is true that given the tools in the Montage toolbox that a device with a knob that generates a MIDI clock duct-taped to the montage is the best solution (the "central clock" - but only under my control and not routed to anyone else) to get something stable.

I'll keep trying to see if there is something that is easier to follow from an A/D input perspective. At this point I just have a modwheel controlled click track that cannot be accurately followed.

... not requesting a feature upgrade, firmware change. Not griping about how the sky is falling. Just providing feedback, usage details, and the process of finding what I can do to maybe "reroute" some settings/resources to regain a feature that has been "optimized out".

Original post excerpt:

Worst case, I suppose is it possible to directly control tempo with the super-knob? If there's one thing I like about Korgs, it's the presence of a dedicated tempo button ...

Seems like tempo control is on topic.

Tap Tempo is always available on the Montage.

I apologize for the long delay in replying. Thank you as always for the detailed explanation. This (and the recent article) will help me as I play with the envelope follower. Keep the articles and videos coming -- they really help. I don't have tons of time to discover everything on my own -- in particular because when I get time, I just love playing the Montage so much I don't dig in as much as I'd like. 😀 The videos especially cut the learning curve considerably. Thanks for all you do.