Why not use "VCM EQ 501" as an insertion effect in series with the amp sim with routing InsA->InsB (InsA = EQ, InsB = Amp sim)?

You may be using both Insertion slots already - but that would do what you've asked if, assuming both are already used, you can throw out the other insertion.

You can also consider how system effects are routed in the chain and employ those.

Regarding the palm mute control - although assignable switches can be used (XA - expanded articulation) this kind of control is unnatural. Using mute or superknob is a better way to go. When you hit the control - you want the change to be instant and not have previously pressed keys still ring out.

The superknob idea would be to crossfade between non-muted and muted. And then you can even use a footswitch and hard switch from one extreme to the other. Or you could use an expression pedal where you could achieve different levels of mute vs. non-muted. "Half muted". That'd be more than I'd want to deal with (full palm, full open, half mute, and all between).

Thank you Jason! You are always so helpful.

I do have an effect on both inserts but one of them is an EQ already. I will see if I can get what I want out of it. So if I’m understanding your suggestions, I could copy part 1 to part 2, apply my EQ on the insert A of part 2 instead of the existing EQ to get my muted sound, and then cross fade between parts 1 and 2 with the super knob which is already tied to my second FC7 with toe down being fully open part 1 and toe up being fully muted part 2. Doing it this way should mean instead of just having mute on/off I can have a dynamic degree of it.

Dan
I have visions of myself playing 'second guitar' on the keyboard in a covers band. It is usually quite simple stuff, as the guitarist never lets you play the best bits anyway!

What type of part are you playing and how elaborate is it? What's the sound you are using? A part with velocity switching between elements would probably do the job and their are several presets within the realm of easy editing.

If the EQ settings do what you need - you can cross-fade using just parameter changes on the EQ on a single part. Most amp sims have EQ within them as well.

Or if you have the perfect palm mute sound in one Part and perfect non-mute sound in another you can cross-fade between two parts.

And a simple footswitch can force all one way or all the other.

Graham,

I'm just using the No1 Guitar with the EQ tweaked a little. I'd appreciate any additional suggestions. I have something working now with the EQ but its not as close to sounding like a palm mute as I would like.

The material is just power chords. In the verses it just does a muted chop during the vocal and then an opened up power chord pattern in between phrases. I'm just duplicating the muted chop in a higher register and inverted so the root is on top then playing a counterpoint to the pattern also in a higher register and inverted. It's what I would do on guitar. I actually figured out what I wanted to play on guitar first so I wouldn't end up coming up with a keyboard part than would be unnatural to finger on guitar in case I ever find myself performing it that way,

Bassoons, contrabassoons....valihas, dulzainas....
Since musical instruments seem to be born on the basis of need, not casualty for most of them, I see no problem in adding a guitar sound that will require a Montage or any other keyboard synthesizer to be played as the composer intended. Call it k-guitar or anything that suits it most.
Don't accept any restrictions and let the music go on. Cannot play that using a guitar, need a synth. Good !!!!

Dan
'No1 Guitar' uses the waveforms of 60's Clean Guitar and the distortion effect 'Amp Simulator1'. I will assume these are the most important building blocks
Please jot down (or photograph)the settings used in 'Amp Simulator1' for this preset, to be used later.
To keep this simple i would not bother with the filters and eq for now.

Using category search, type in '2H' and this takes you to 4 performances of 2 handed guitars. These guitars are all split at C3.
Main features of these performances, which fit perfectly for playing both mutes and power chords:
The same sound is programmed above and below C3 for 2 handed play.
Lower velocities produce a guitar mute waveform
Higher velocities produce a 3 note power chord
Left hand is a down stroke and RH is an upstroke. (using programmed key on delays)

Please select 'MidDrive (2HandGt)' which is a single part performance, that uses our '60's clean guitar' waveforms
Select Effects - insert A and turn off the VCM EQ for now. Adjust later
Select Effects -Insert B and change to Amp Simulator1 and the settings jotted down earlier. You may want to turn the output level up
All done (do the EQ as you see fit. The original sounded awfully bright for a rhythm guitar)

Hopefully this works for you. Let me know. There will be another solution otherwise
I had fun doing it.

Optional Extras:
1) on the edit screen hit 'all' in the bottom right hand corner. You may wish to substitute elements 4 and 8 for 60s Clean Mute?

2) As an alternative, the performance 'ToughTube(2HandGt)' works slightly different as the higher velocities just produce single open notes not power chords.
With this method you can voice inversions to your hearts desire. The 5th and octave can be introduced with assignable switches 1 and 2.

graham

Note that there are about 20 sampled "mute" guitar Waveforms that may be easier to deal with than attempting to do EQ. Your initial question was focused on how to get an EQ inserted before the amp sim - so I focused on that. But if you are struggling with using EQ to achieve your goal - the sampled mute may be a better fit. Assuming you have a free element on your existing non-mute guitar - add the waveform to the existing Part and use element level (or note range) as a means to switch between the two.

I did sample through all the muted guitar Performances in the library and none sounded convincing as a muted version of the Guitar part I'm using, but perhaps it is because they are routed through different amp blocks and EQ's. I will experiment with routing the muted guitar waveforms into this Part so they pass through the same amp and EQ blocks and see if I get better results. I did not consider the other factors when sampling through them. I certainly like the idea of the guitar being sampled with palm muting rather than trying to approximate it with eq and other parameters. I will dig in on this this evening and see if I can get a better result. I'm fairly certain I have elements available.

I turned on one of the unused elements and pulled in the 60 guitar mute waveform to match up with the other 60's guitar waveforms in the part and detuned it an octave like the other elements in the part. This immediately gave me better results than my efforts with the EQ did. Bonus is I learned more about editing parts. I have only had the instrument a couple of months so I have tons to learn. This was a great exercise. I also got the element volume assigned to the super knob. The original 2 main elements are full on in the toe down position and the new muted element is full on in the toe up position. This is a workable solution for me now. I didn't particularly like the 2H Guitar performances. The left hand wouldn't get as high as the parts I'm playing before crossing into right hand zone, and I didn't like the automatically playing power chords. I would rather finger the chords I wish to play. Sometimes I want a major or minor 3rd instead and sometimes I want a single note part.

There is one more modification I would still like to make but just haven't been able to figure out. I would prefer instead of using the FC7 to use the FC4A to just make this a momentary switch between the 2 extremes. I would basically like to step on the FC4A to go fully muted and release to open back up fully. As things stand currently I don't understand how to assign the FC4A in the assignable footswitch jack. It simply toggles the Arp Master on and off. I can't find where that assignment is made. I also notice it behaves as a latching rather than a momentary switch in that function. I would ideally want to remove the arpeggio master assignment. Assign it to control the element volumes, and make it a momentary switch vs latching. I'm not clear if this is not in it's designed function or if I just still don't have control assignments figured out.

It looks like this is all sorted now, but if its worth anything, from a guitarists perspective, muting can encompass a lot of techniques.

1) Staccato... single note runs, the mute can be applied pre-pluck for percussive sounds (permanent mute, consistent timbre), or, immediately after the pluck, allowing some variation of the timbre, and percussion (this can be a mixture of both fretting hand and/or picking hand)

2) Muted Rhythm/Chords... your typical funk playing. Similar to above with regards permanent or variable muting. Depending on the speed of the strum, you get "stabs" with faster strumming or "rakes" with slower strumming (rakes are like very fast arpeggios, and can create their own rhythmic effect in context).

So there's your basics, but the applications can be a lot more wide reaching (I was always a fan of Andy Summers, The Police, for his use of muting if you want some ideas).

One thing struck me in the above topic, was discussion of EQ. In guitar land, the EQ will sound different on a mute, but that's string technique, not a change in EQ (on the Amp or a pedal for example).

My first port of call on a Synth would probably be the AEG, and figuring out how I could "open and close" it at will. So maybe, foot pedal down = short attack, short decay, foot pedal up = Normal attack and decay (however the guitar Part is normally configured).

Other things that guitarists have found enhances muting are:-

1) Compression with a Slow(ish) attack. This can create a kind of popping or clicking effect which is great for strong rhythmic parts, and making them really stand out. Nile Rogers is the guy to watch here.

2) Phasers or Auto-wah (envelope wah). In effect, similar to synchronising Filter sweeps with the rhythm. Again this can improve the rhythmic feel and "movement" of the muted part. I really like slow phasers for this. Loads of examples, but the famous them tune to the film Shaft should get you looking in the right directions (70's sleazy funk).
The Montage/Modx have both Phasers and Auto-Wah as insert effects. But you could probably also get some mileage from FEG employed in concert with the AEG used for the muting.

Anyway... I've not done any of this on a synth, but I thought it might be useful.

Anthony, thanks for offering so much help. I'm actually a guitar player and only recently came back to keys (though I took years of piano as a chilid). I'm just trying to do a hard rock chunky power chord palm mute, not really a cleaner style funk sound.

Regarding the FC4A I previously asked about, I would still like to know how to do that if possible from an academic standpoint just to get to know my device, however I think my big takeaway from those 2H Guitar Performances Graham was referencing is going to be to tie it to velocity like they do instead of making it controlled by a pedal. I had a bit of an issue with the 2H Guitar performances in that I felt like I really had to pound on the keys to get them to open up. But that should just be a matter of adjusting the velocity crossover point.

Dan, i'm pleased the velocity switching (with editing) method is working for you.

I chose to start with the 2H guitars as the heavy lifting had already been done by the programmers.
If you wish to turn off the chord function and the two hand function: Turn off all elements except 1 and 4 and then increase the keyboard range on elements 1 and 4.

I chose not to start with 'No.1 Guitar' as it was a little more complicated. There is already velocity switching in the performance, with an octave being added on higher velocities above 95

FC4A: i don't use one, and am very happy to overruled on this. The easy answer is, I think the assignable pedal is set on a global level and the options don't cover your needs. Hit the utility button - settings - midi I/O to see the options. I think Arp Switch is the default