Local=off is not exactly the same as keyboard control=off - had you already tried keyboard control=off? Also, parts 9-16 have keyboard control=off already so MIDI ch. 9-16 can be used for externally triggered parts.

See the following for more detail: https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/montage-as-master-keyboard-explain-zone-relationship-to-montage-parts

There is a screen which can allow or filter MSB/LSB and PC changes - make sure that those are set for receive=on. The reference manual (montage_en_rm_a0.pdf) page 92 shows:

1) [PERFORMANCE] (HOME)
2) Touchscreen (TS): Select the part you want to edit the MSB/LSB + Program Change response on/off
3) TS: Select "Edit" from the left-hand side popup menu
4) TS: Make sure lower-left "Common" square is hilighted blue, touch the square if not
5) TS: Select menu (left-hand side) "Mod / Control" -> "Receive SW"
6) TS: Make sure "Pgm Change" and "Bank Select" are hilighted in green. If grey (OFF) - then touch each grey until set to ON

hey Jason, thank you for your reply! yes, program change and bank select are both active (lit in green)....and actually i've been down that route.... that will send a program change to the an individual part... which is NOT what i want to accomplish..and also I'm am NOT using the Montage as the Master controller as i'm using a Yamaha CP4 as the controller. I am treating the Montage like it were a sound module for this particular gig.I won't be playing the Montage's action at all for this gig...i have 4 zones on the CP4 all of which can send individual MSB LSB and program change info on 4 different channels. I'm having no problem sending program change to 3 other sound sources ( Mainstage on a MacBook Pro, Nord Electro 5D, and an old Roland XV 5080 all on different zones and different nidi channels .Only the Montage is fighting me...and oddly enough it will (the Montage) accept program changes if i send on midi channel 1 from the CP4 and the Montage is set on midi channel 1 in the Advanced Settings menu...but since i already have tons of sounds and controllers setup in Mainstage on midi channel 1 it would be a nightmare to change all of those now...also odd is the Montage will play sound (from the CP4's keybed) with sus pedal, exp pedal, etc on a different channel other than 1 when sent from the CP4 on its own zone .....let's say midi channel 6 on Zone 3 on the CP4 and i set Montage to midi 6 under Utility>Advanced Settings...but it refuses to accept program change on midi 6 even though all is set up identically in the CP4 zone thats sending out on midi 6 as was on the Zone that was sending out on midi channel 1 which does work as far as sending program change.. like i said it would be way too much work to have to change everything out in Mainstage to another midi channel just to accommodate this.....surely I'm missing something simple? this shouldn't be rocket science...what about the "Intialize Advanced Settings" in the Advanced Settings menu..anybody know what this does..it has a warning in the manual so I was afraid to try it.. Thanks for you reply

i want to send the Program change data from the CP4 to the Montage on a channels thats not midi channel 1 and and I want it to change to different Performances ( not parts)..also i know what local off is..i have local set to off when composing music on the computer..also I already have all my Performance created i need for this show and i'm in "Single " midi channel mode..

Your original message had multiple goals. Some goals were abandoned and you moved on - such as:

The keyboard control = off was meant to address "or anyway to turn the local off of the Montage keyboard per part". Maybe you meant to say "per performance" instead of "per part" - but any performance with all parts assigned to keyboard control = off (or using parts 9-16) would seem to get you where you want. I do understand you've abandoned the Montage as a master route - just offering FYI.

The link to BM's general "all things MIDI" post was meant to be a primer for general setup and hopefully addressing some basics (and not-so-basics) that would help with a roadblock you were dealing with.

Rocket science is a matter perspective. The architecture of "everything is a performance" (instead of voice+performance+master+pattern+song+...) has somewhat changed how Montage works relative to legacy products. Now there are various settings scattered about that give you more-or-less an equivalent result. I wouldn't mind seeing a "you did it this way with Motif ... now you setup the same thing like -this- in Motif" kind of document with screenshots of Motif as well as Montage.

There's some verbage about channel 1 being the control channel - mostly from a transmit perspective (SysEx, CC go out MIDI Ch 1). I'll have to fire up the Montage to see if there's anything that can be changed specific to receive channel for Bank.PGM change.

The "I've been down that road" comment you made seem to indicate the screen I was referring to was for MIDI OUT from the Montage. As presented, this is for MIDI receive by the Montage (not send). You may have been down that road - but there's a different screen for MIDI send bank/pgm on/off. That's the common part settings "Part Settings" -> "Zone Settings". I never had you fool with these since they are for send and not receive. That said, since the Montage isn't the master controller, then you should probably turn Bank + Pgm change OFF on the Zone Settings so it doesn't send this info to MIDI OUT. Not necessarily because you need to do this - but because it's not the intent. Maybe you have nothing connected to MIDI OUT - so it doesn't matter - but still good to reinforce knowing what direction these settings are for.

I previously filtered out the following thread due to the banter (noise) - but there is some useful "meat" for your situation here:

https://yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=7503&Itemid=851#reply-7517

... or this one which helps with the receive MIDI channel while in single mode:

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/midi-receive-for-performance-on-montage

Press [UTILITY]
Select "Settings" > "Advanced" > MIDI I/O mode = single
Select a channel 1-16 to match your external controller

Your Montage firmware must be updated to version 1.10.x in order to select "MIDI I/O Mode"

So it seems that the same screen to set MIDI I/O mode will also set the channel for all MIDI out and MIDI in.

Also, look at the data list to see a map of MSB/LSB+Program Change - or alternatively use the touchscreen to touch the performance title from the [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) screen and choose "properties". Here's a blurb from another thread:

One quick aside on the "properties" of a performance: unlike MSB and LSB (which are decimal zero-based values) - the Program No. elected to use 1-based values. This matches the 1..128 nomenclature given in parenthesis on page 175 of the data list. However, page 178 shows the values for Program No. as zero-based (0-127). It's a little lopsided to have MSB/LSB as zero based then Program No. as one-based. It would be easier to document if the "properties" stuck with zero-based for Program No. Or, not as ideal, show the 1-based numbering everywhere (including page 178, etc) with an asterisk - "Values in parenthesis are one-based. The Montage user interface uses one-based while MIDI protocol uses zero-based." Or something to that effect.

Using the CP4 - it's possible that the CP4 uses the same one-based list of program numbers instead of zero-based list of program change (how MIDI is implemented). Just something to be aware of if the resulting change does not match what you expected.

BTW: I've always assumed you want to MSB/LSB+PC change performances - not parts. There are some MSB/LSB+PC which will change the PART - but the method of discovering the MSB/LSB+PC given above (using the touchscreen) will be a performance-based change (not PART).

As you have discovered, Montage is different from your other gear. No doubt. To address the Montage as a whole, you could use MIDI channel 1. That is one of eight Basic Receive Channels for the Montage to receive global messages.

When you are attempting to recall a MULTI PART Performance, you can send the BANK SELECT and PC on any of the potential KBD CTRL Channels, i.e., channels 1-8.

By sending specific MSB/LSB Bank Select Numbers (on any of Montage's Basic Receive Channel 1-8) you can change the entire Performance. For example, MSB/LSB 63/64 through 63/84 would be the Bank Select command to recall MULTI PART PERFORMANCES. These are the full Performances and include those that appear listed in blue when you use Category Search.
__ Example: 63/64 PC 0 (001) would recall all five PARTS of the "CFX + FM EP" Performance starting from Part 1 through Part 5.

By sending a different set of MSB/LSB Bank Select Numbers you can address the individual Parts, 1-16, on their respective MIDI Channels, 1-16. For example, MSB/LSB 63/0 would be the Bank Select command to recall SINGLEs. Single Montage Parts (those that appear in green) are subdivided into two segments: those that are partial instruments, (like the hard strike layer of an acoustic piano or the mechanical noise of an electric piano), and those that are complete instruments playable at all velocities and through all ranges.
__ Example #1: 63/0 PC 0 (001) would recall just the hard strike (partial instrument) PART 1 from the CFX
__ Example #2: 63/0 PC 3 (004) would recall "CFX PopStudioGrand" the very first Preset, Single (green) listing... which is fully playable instrument.

Summary:
When you start from the HOME screen, press [CATEGORY SEARCH]. You'll see "Performance Category Search". Listed in blue are the Multi Part Performances, listed in green are the Single Part Performances. Different Bank Select commands are used for the Multi Part (blue) and Single Part (green) Performances.

Multi Part Performances (blue) always occupy the first 8 (KBD CTRL) slots and always start from Part 1. Because they are made up of multiple Parts by convention you always build them from Part 1; but you can send the Bank Select and PC on any of the first 8 MIDI channels.

Single Parts (green) can be recalled for any slot, by using the appropriate single Part MSB/LSB Bank Select numbers on the appropriate channel.

Now since some Single Parts are partial instruments and some are full instruments, Montage gives you a way to Search just those that are fully playable instruments. You do so by using the "Part x Category Search" function. You, first, select a PART, then using [SHIFT] + [CATEGORY SEARCH] you will be shown only the (green) Parts that are full range instrument Parts.

Facts:
_ When using the Zone Master function, you do have a Local Control Off for each of the Parts. By setting the Zone Master's INT SW = OFF, that slot will not play the internal engine from the Montage keys.
_ If you are interested in addressing the Montage and recall Multi Part Performances in their entirety, your MSB/LSB will be 63/64 and higher. You don't give us any specifics. But you could place the message on any MIDI Channel between 1 and 8.
_ When you recall a Performance - touch the NAME to view the pop-in, touch "Property" to see the BANK SELECT and PROGRAM CHANGE to recall the entire Performance program.

Aha!!! Excellent!!!..thank you both Jason and Bad Mister...I actually had tried the MSB 63 with various LSB's which lined up with the User banks that I'd found on page 178 of the Montage data list doc... but maybe I put in the Hex number by mistake since its right next door when i was on the multi part users banks.. I was a little confused with the single part versus multi part thing so i tried both...i was mixing that up with single midi channel setting ( which is how i'm running it) when i read the last thing in your facts: When you recall a Performance - touch the NAME to view the pop-in, touch "Property" to see the BANK SELECT and PROGRAM CHANGE to recall the entire Performance program...a light bulb went off i totally missed that it had this function..very cool.. so i needed MSB 63 and LSB 80 then various program numbers for all my custom sounds.i guess i was searching around sort of in the dark and although i did get close with the LSB'S AND MSB'S this function makes it is easy Yay!!!!... as far as the Facts :When using the Zone Master function, you do have a Local Control Off for each of the Parts. By setting the Zone Master's INT SW = OFF, that slot will not play the internal engine from the Montage keys. I guess I'm still a bit confused on this one? so if I'm triggering the internal sounds of the Montage from my CP4 with a Zone Master turned on and the INT SW=OFF, will i still hear the montage internal sound being played from the CP4 keyboard?..and then the other question would be can i then trigger sounds that are in Mainstage from the Montages keybed ? so say I wanted to play the Montage CFX from the CP4's weighted 88 keys and then play the B-5 organ plug-in within Mainstage from the Montages keyboard( without triggering the CFX sound from the Montage's keyboard) ..is there a way i can do this? What an great resource to have you guys there though! Very Thankful for that...

david, when you complete a thought, please use the paragraph... it will make you posts easier to read.

Whether or not you can additionally play another device while slaving the Montage will depend on how you are connected via MIDI. Simple MIDI connections don't work like that. You have and know your setup, try it, let us know.

I'm sure it will depend on how are you connected to MainStage.

The data list doesn't clearly delineate which region applies to performances and which apply to parts because the terminology in the data list is slightly different than the "user guide" or "reference manual" terminology. The "multi part" region targets performances while the "single part" will adjust the selected PART preset. 63/80 as user is fine as this addresses the user performances. I'm kind of surprised about the user (single part) region since I'm sure these will only adjust PARTs like the single part presets. I'm not aware of how to store just a PART (like voice mode in Motif) - so I imagine the single part either merges all parts or just loads up whatever part 1 of the user performance is (to the currently selected PART). It would be an interesting thing to know - doesn't take long to figure out on your own. Obviously the Montage isn't setup yet or I'd have filled in that blank here. I believe the answer is that it takes whatever part 1 is - because for presets - part 1 (the "anchor" part) always shares the name of the performance and is what is loaded as a "single part".

The one-liner is: "stay away from 'single part' if you expect the entire performance to switch - use 'multi part' instead"

I think it's best to use the properties (as both BM and I mentioned) to double-check the MSB/LSB+PN assignment (PN=Program No. in the "properties" screen). As time goes on - Yamaha may update firmware to expand on the preset performance list like they have in the past and you may get your documentation out-of-sync with the firmware you have installed. Best to update latest/latest - but you may "forget" to update the data list or blow away the directory after installing which sometimes includes the associated documentation updates. Having Montage report the performance MSB/LSB+PN will always be correct on the morning of your gig.

As I mentioned earlier - there's a difference between local control and int SW. It's covered in a link I provided earlier:

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/montage-as-master-keyboard-explain-zone-relationship-to-montage-parts

I think a fair summary statement would be "Keyboard Control disconnects the keyboard from doing anything - like placing a cover over your keys. Internal Switch disconnects the tone generator from sounding. So if KB Control=on and you press a key - it will send MIDI out for the note, but the keyboard itself will not make a noise for that part w/int sw=off."

Read the link to get more nuance. The discussion has several concrete examples of configurations (different goals with associated settings to reach those goals). It's a valuable study which seems to fit in with your questions around MIDI control (targeting external, or receiving from external) settings.

... it's one of those responses that is in-line to be a "sticky" once the forum gets revamped.

======

Your Mainstage question - I'm assuming you are only using MIDI-IN (DIN connector = "old timey" MIDI, not USB MIDI) with a cable attached to OUT of your CP4 or daisy-chain connected to an OUT of something else which is itself connected to the OUT of the CP (out-to-in always). Point being is that your MIDI OUT of the Montage is free and can be connected to something.

Oh - Mainstage is software. So you're carrying a laptop or desktop or all in one or mini or ... some form factor of an apple product that can run this thing. I think the easiest scenario to deal with would be a USB-to-MIDI(DIN) cable that is supported by Apple (Yamaha UX16 shows OSX support - latest FAQ is from 2014 although download.yamaha.com shows latest driver as: "USB-MIDI Driver V1.3.2 for Mac （10.5.8 / 10.6.8 / 10.7.5 / 10.8.x / 10.9.x / 10.10.x / 10.11.x / 10.12.x)" from 11/2015 - "only" 1yr old.

You may not have that today (a UX16) - but I believe that if you're throwing a computer into the mix - then I'd make the computer the center of the setup and have CP4's out target the computer (USB) and connect the MIDI out of the CP4 routed to the MIDI IN of Montage also connected via USB MIDI. And selecting USB-MIDI mode for each board. This would seem to offer the most flexibility although I can't really help with Mainstage because other than 5 minutes of a training video/tutorial on 2 keyboard setups - I haven't ever worked with or seen this software.

Unless you really need Mainstage for the gig tonight/today - I'd skip on Mainstage as it is somewhat of a can of worms and stick with dedicated hardware if Montage+CP4 can carry you today.

... I mean, with SCM (modeled) pianos - only missing sympathetic string resonance - and the entire Motif XF plus newer sounds - what more could you need? I have answers for myself - but it would be interesting to learn what is deficient stacking Montage+CP4 for your needs.

Here's a bowl full of links to look at for Mainstage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG_CnB1o5oM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0-DamgnBzk

I think a fair summary statement would be "Keyboard Control disconnects the keyboard from doing anything - like placing a cover over your keys. Internal Switch disconnects the tone generator from sounding. So if KB Control=on and you press a key - it will send MIDI out for the note, but the keyboard itself will not make a noise for that part w/int sw=off."

No, not really. Keyboard Control does not disconnect the keyboard, quite the opposite, it links several Parts so that they are connected to the keyboard whenever either COMMON or any one of the linked Parts is selected.

The INT SW, which only appears when the Zone Settings are activated for a Part, allows that slot to only address the external device, when INT SW = Off and the external Transmit Channel is set.

If KBD CTRL is OFF for an occupied slot you can still transmit from that Part by selecting it directly.
If KBD CTRL is ON for a slot you can transmit from that Part when COMMON or any of its linked brothers are selected, whether that slot transmits internally or externally (or both) will depend on your Zone Settings, if active.

Right - I didn't include the exception case for kbd control when a part is selected. I think of part=selected as overriding (like a controller can be assigned to a destination which overrides the default, adding or subtracting some value) keyboard control=off such that keyboard control is set to on for the part which is selected.

Maybe we think of this differently - but the results jive.

Actually selecting a Part changes the MIDI transmit channel.

... under certain circumstances. Selecting a PART will allow the channel to express itself according to that PART's settings. So selecting between multiple different PARTs may still keep the MIDI channel the same if that's how the PART is setup. I see this as a different bucket than keyboard control. Although when selecting a PART with "keyboard control = off" - I wasn't very complete because I was glossing over the exception. But the two things that happen are 1) selecting a part temporarily sets keyboard control=on for this PART - even parts 9-16 ; and 2) All other PARTs (non selected PARTs) temporarily have keyboard control set to OFF. This falls in-line with the speculation that one purpose for this what I see as an exception is to preview (hear) what the sound output is for the selected PART which would otherwise not sound.

Since "solo" is redundant for the case where you have selected a PART and that same PART has keyboard control=off, it may be more clear if the PART "solo" button was automatically selected in this case (and could not be switched off) to visually indicate more of what is going on.

Lol you two guys are def way over my head at this point..i got the program changes to work correctly for the gig..you saved me in the nick of time.. Jason as far as how i'm sending out to Mainstage ( running on a Macbook Pro) from the CP4( as well as the Roland XV 5080,Nord E5 and the Montage 6) I have a midi solutions Quadra Merge hooked up to the CP4's midi out..the 4 midi outs of the Quadra are old school midi cable to the in's of the Roland XV 5080,Nord E5 and Montage.the 4th goes to the Macbook Pro using a Roland Ume One midi to USB cable into the Macs USB .. for this particular gig I used the Nord as my unweighted controller and used the USB out of the Nord into another USB in on the Mac.. I was using Mainstage mostly for hi end orchestral libraries running inside Kontakt also Omnisphere,Keyscape and UVI's B-5 organ plug-in (with Melda's leslie sim plug-in)....i do LOVE the Montage..the sound of it is fantastic!!! (loving the Phat Analog sounds from Easy Sounds too) and I'm sure the more i work with it i'll discover more but sometimes i can only digest a little bit of tech at a time especially when I'm so busy with live gigs.The setting up of all the layers/splits and actually working up the music for this one-off show while holding down my regular 8 gigs a week is enough for an old guy like me thats pushin' 60 lol..Thanks guys, much appreciated.

Glad you got it sorted out enough for the gig.

In terms of hardware setup - I like to see a summary of:

Montage 6:
MIDI OUT - Connected to ... (or not connected)
MIDI IN - Connected to ... (or not connected)
MIDI THRU - Connected to ... (or not connected)
USB MIDI - Connected to ... (or not connected)

CP4
MIDI OUT / MIDI IN / MIDI THRU / USB MIDI (same as above)

... and so on for all devices including the PC and midi-merge box. I'm not sure the merge and its connectivity was spelled out although I do admit that the organization of your information, as BM pointed out, made it more difficult to follow than otherwise would be had you used paragraphs and headers.

I think the fact that you had a successful gig combined with not exactly following some of the details ("nuance?") of the MIDI configuration parameters demonstrates that Montage is accessible enough to allow for intuition to guide the setup rather than having to know every technical consequence of various parameters. In time, you may run into situations where it serves you to learn more about some of these settings. The forum and other documentation sources (articles, blogs, video tutorials, manuals, etc) will still be around for you to reference.