Portamento does not need to transmit anything. You press the notes and if portamento is on then it will glide between the notes. That does not require any additional data.

Jason: I guess it's important to understand the distinction between the pitch bend controller - which is limited vs. the pitch bend MIDI implementation - which isn't "skimped" as the quoted other forum post talks about for some (not Montage/MODX) keyboards.

I will like too, but using linnstrument witch send 14 bit data pitchbend, the Yamaha respond as the pitchbend wheel, à stepped curve. If somebody get a smooth pitchbend with let say a 12 -+ setting with an external controller, please let say to us. What mister bad have to say about this issue, is it or not possible to get a smooth pitchbend from external controller in the montage, but it looks like that is not possible.

I've already done it with sendmidi. That's my external "controller".

Closer examination shows even 14-bits are not acted upon. I've written a script to smear pitches and Montage did not actually change any pitch until multiple values were sent. So values within ranges of the 14-bit data are processed as the same pitch by the tone generator.

Yes, Montage accepts 14-bits. But doesn't do anything with the extra bits. Below "--out 2" targets my MONTAGE-1 (port 1) and the first argument after --pitch-wheel is the channel number where 0=MIDI channel 1. I have the "Fat Sine" preset recalled and change the PB range as -48/+24 (maximum spread).

sendmidi --out 2 --pitch-wheel 0 9983
sendmidi --out 2 --pitch-wheel 0 9984
... at 9984, which is binary ‭0010011100000000‬ the pitch changes with a large step (range set to -48/+24)
sendmidi --out 2 --pitch-wheel 0 9985
through ...
sendmidi --out 2 --pitch-wheel 0 10111
pitch does not change (between 9994 to 10111)
sendmidi --out 2 --pitch-wheel 0 10112
pitch changes with a large step . Binary for 10112 is ‭0010011110000000‬

Values 99945-10111 are ignored.

... so the two inflection points of pitch:

0010011100000000
0010011110000000‬

You can see that any non-zero bits in the lower 7 bits are ignored.

0010011100000001 is same pitch as 0010011100000000
0010011100000010 is same pitch as 0010011100000000
... and so on until
0010011110000000 ... lower 7 bits "roll over" to zero and then pitch changes.

I'm not sure how applicable the comment that Montage uses 14-bits internal is (from BM's prior post) because the tone generator doesn't USE 14 bits. Yes, it doesn't lock up the keyboard or throw an error or go completely wacky. However, bits 0-7 of MIDI message (LSB) 0xEn (n=ch #) are ignored in terms of pitch shifting. Non-zero values in the LSB are masked as if they were zero.

On the MIDI bus, this looks as (for MIDI channel 1):

0xE0 0x00 0x4E
... same pitch output as
0xE0 0x01 0x4E
... through
0xE0 0x7F 0x4E
(no change in pitch)
0xE0 0x00 0x4F
pitch changes

Pitch bend is generically 0xEn (MSB is 2nd byte) n=ch # zero-based.

... so we do seem to have a 7-bit tone generator in a 14-bit world. Bad if you need wide ranges and small steps.

Link to previous inference that Montage/MODX uses the full 14-bits:

https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/unison-montage-fm-x#reply-82920

Several: Points of Order...
Pitch Bend is handled by 14-bit resolution (has been since the introduction of MIDI in 1983) — higher resolution PB will be implemented as part of the new 2.0 MIDI spec. There are 16,384 increments of PB, If you Set the PB Range to -2/+2, it’s obvious that the 16,384 increments will sound smoother over that distance, as opposed to what happens when PB Range is Set to -12/+12. That’s what you’re hearing.

When, in fact, Montage's AWM2 and FM-X engines appear to "throw out" 7 bits on all fronts. Using internal controllers. Using external controllers. Or a more controlled environment sending specific MIDI commands from a PC.

Saying Montage has 16,384 increments of pitch bend is similar to the TV marketing around HDR. How TVs claim HDR support which really means they accept movies/content which provide HDR data - but do not actually respond to it. Or only provide a subset of the range (bits) in the visual domain similar to Montage's limitations on pitch bend in the audio domain. These days - folks are fairly "in tune" with the marketing and see "HDR support" as "fake HDR".

Instead of 16,384 increments, Montage provides 16,384/128 = 128 increments. The result of throwing out those LSB 7 bits.

... so Montage/MODX doesn't need MIDI 2.0 to gain 16,256 more increments of pitch bend. Montage/MODX can just implement the 1983 solution in a full-scale manner if that's at all possible. MIDI 2.0 will give even more resolution than the 1983 spec - but currently full 1983 resolution is not realized.

Just so you know - MIDI 2.0 provides 32 bits of pitch-bend resolution. If the trend continues (and MIDI 2.0 is "implemented" ), this means Montage could be throwing out 25 bits of information or 33,554,432 increments instead of the 7 bits or 16,256 it throws away today.

Thanks, Jason, this is then the issue. But it looks that you do the job that Yamaha team should do. If you were not here, this forum will be just empty. I will like to have some return from the people in charge there, but maybe is it just holidays. It is interesting to discover some bad and even hidden failure of the Montage, how is it possible to step back like this in a 4000 bucks synth? Designer fault or budget economy? Both are just obscene to me and put me in a very uncomfortable state.

This should be acknowledged as a bug. Checking the midi output lsb is 0 for msb 0-63. For msb 64-127, lsb goes from 0-127. I think other users have reported on this in this thread. Still means 128 different values only.

My Nord Lead 4 has a similar behaviour, where you can hear the discrete steps for multi octave bends. It sends different lsb and msb through the msb scale, but most lsb values are not used. So this seems to be something manufacturer's skip over.

I thought the stepping sound exposed a limitation in the MIDI protocol. Seeing as it isn't, Yamaha should just implement the pitch wheel on the Montage properly. I've upvoted the ideascale suggestion, but bugs shouldn't be handled through that system.

This should be acknowledged as a bug. Checking the midi output lsb is 0 for msb 0-63. For msb 64-127, lsb goes from 0-127. I think other users have reported on this in this thread. Still means 128 different values only.

The stated documentation says on output - Montage/MODX will only output 7-bits. So this matches spec. Not a bug. On input, there is no documentation stating what the capabilities are. BM's comments in earlier threads are the closest thing to a spec. However, these statements appear to over-state the capabilities.

Guess what I'm saying is that it's not a bug if BM's previous clarification is mistaken/misleading. The official documentation is ambiguous so the instrument does appear to be operating within the letter of what's printed.

Industry standard is to throw away precision - so Montage/MODX appears in-line with what most other keyboards do. Not exactly a leadership position - but at least not a weak one.

There's still merit to requesting this is improved - just important to put this in perspective.

We are looking into this issue.

Much of this has to do with the range you have MONTAGE pitch bend set and it seems you have it at +24 and are moving it very slowly. I agree: It will step when moving slowly at such an extreme range and I have sent this post over to the development team to look into it.

One of the good things is we have regular updates to the Montage OS versions that constantly add new features based on customer feedback. I see that you have found the ideascale forum: That is a good place to register your requests. We do listen.

Thanks for the follow-up, Blake. I have fairly high confidence that feedback is taken seriously and bubbles up to the dev/sustaining team. That said, this level of engagement helps give a warm-fuzzy (I'm sure) to a wider audience. High fives and all the rest.

That said, this level of engagement helps give a warm-fuzzy (I'm sure) to a wider audience. High fives and all the rest.

Indeed. Very cool to see a response like this from someone at Yamaha.

Blake wrote

We are looking into this issue.

Much of this has to do with the range you have MONTAGE pitch bend set and it seems you have it at +24 and are moving it very slowly. I agree: It will step when moving slowly at such an extreme range and I have sent this post over to the development team to look into it.

I get some little hope if Yamaha get involved in this issue. I have to say that even at +- 12 half tone, we have also a very stepped coarse bending. But what I asked still myself is that in my case, it is more than like 7 bit stepped effect. In fact I can heard each halftone when I glide on the linnstrument. I can assure that the linn have the right setting for get a smooth bending as I can get with another sound generator software. What I get with montage is a pure glissando. Is it this an effect of the 7 bit issue or something more, up to that?

Introducing another specialty controller is muddying the waters a bit. I don't have the resources to take a proper look (review Linn MIDI output to see what it's doing behind the curtains).

If so compelled, you could record all of the MIDI output of the Linnstrument and post that. Even a text capture of a MIDI Monitor software output could work. That's still possibly a red herring.

For instance, not sure how your software tone generator is setup. If what you're hearing is related to pitch bend or if this is just portamento being implemented in the software.

http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/linnstrument.html

If you turn potamento on (fingered mode) you would smooth out the linnstrument. Staccato playing would not have portamento.

We are looking into this issue.
Much of this has to do with the range you have MONTAGE pitch bend set and it seems you have it at +24 and are moving it very slowly. I agree: It will step when moving slowly at such an extreme range and I have sent this post over to the development team to look into it.

Great to see that our thoughts and ideas are being read by Yamaha! 😉

I first noticed the issue when trying to bend an electric guitar down (like a whammy bar) more than -5 and it wasn't perfectly smooth no matter how fast or slow I bent the notes. I noticed it more clearly when I had my DX7II side by side with with the Montage and tested some FM-X sounds that I had imported from the DX7. With a pitch bend of +/-10 the exact same FM sound on the DX7 was so perfectly smooth (even with a very slow bend) and the Montage clearly had a micro stepping sound which was not smooth at all.
Awesome that the developers are going to check into this! I've been keeping my pitch bends to no more than +/-5 on the Montage for emulating an electric guitar whammy bar, but if this gets fixed I will definitely increase the amount of bend I use...

Jason wrote;
If so compelled, you could record all of the MIDI output of the Linnstrument and post that. Even a text capture of a MIDI Monitor software output could work. That's still possibly a red herring.

this is what linnstrument pitch bend send to montage set with +-12 halftone with the lowest quantization, gliding one octave. we can see the lsb and msb data[ o to 127x 0 to 127] but i dont understand the meanings of letters?

E0 00 40
E0 0C 40
E0 08 40
E0 00 40
E0 78 3F
E0 74 3F
E0 6C 3F
E0 68 3F
E0 64 3F
E0 68 3F
E0 64 3F
E0 5C 3F
E0 58 3F
E0 50 3F
E0 48 3F
E0 30 3F
E0 24 3F
E0 08 3F
E0 6C 3E
E0 4C 3E
E0 24 3E
E0 0C 3E
E0 74 3D
E0 54 3D
E0 1C 3D
E0 64 3C
E0 14 3E
E0 78 3D
E0 3C 3D
E0 18 3D
E0 5C 3C
E0 08 3C
E0 38 3B
E0 6C 3A
E0 34 3A
E0 08 3A
E0 3C 39
E0 00 39
E0 3C 38
E0 10 38
E0 58 37
E0 0C 37
E0 3C 36
E0 00 36
E0 2C 35
E0 54 34
E0 10 34
E0 50 33
E0 28 33
E0 54 32
E0 20 32
E0 60 31
E0 14 31
E0 30 30
E0 08 30
E0 54 2F
E0 28 2F
E0 6C 2E
E0 44 2E
E0 18 2E
E0 5C 2D
E0 1C 2D
E0 64 2C
E0 38 2C
E0 54 2B
E0 0C 2B
E0 48 2A
E0 04 2A
E0 68 29
E0 34 29
E0 64 28
E0 40 28
E0 14 28
E0 54 27
E0 20 27
E0 54 26
E0 10 26
E0 44 25
E0 64 24
E0 30 24
E0 10 24
E0 3C 23
E0 74 22
E0 34 22
E0 04 22
E0 4C 21
E0 04 21
E0 34 20
E0 5C 1F
E0 24 1F
E0 54 1E
E0 0C 1E
E0 64 1D
E0 30 1D
E0 08 1D
E0 54 1C
E0 14 1C
E0 44 1B
E0 58 1A
E0 10 1A
E0 6C 19
E0 44 19
E0 78 18
E0 18 18
E0 5C 17
E0 20 17
E0 64 16
E0 74 15
E0 38 15
E0 04 15
E0 58 14
E0 18 14
E0 4C 13
E0 1C 13
E0 40 12
E0 10 12
E0 58 11
E0 20 11
E0 50 10
E0 04 10
E0 34 0F
E0 04 0F
E0 40 0E
E0 00 0E
E0 54 0D
E0 10 0D
E0 64 0C
E0 30 0C
E0 70 0B
E0 14 0B
E0 58 0A
E0 10 0A
E0 5C 09
E0 30 09
E0 78 08
E0 60 08
E0 24 08
E0 78 07
E0 50 07
E0 28 07
E0 6C 06
E0 00 06
E0 3C 05
E0 00 05
E0 60 04
E0 2C 04
E0 00 04
E0 5C 03
E0 44 03
E0 6C 02
E0 40 02
E0 14 02
E0 00 02
E0 5C 01
E0 50 01
E0 48 01
E0 50 01
E0 5C 01
E0 68 01
E0 70 01
E0 78 01
E0 00 02
E0 7C 01
E0 04 02
E0 0C 02
E0 14 02
E0 18 02
E0 1C 02
E0 38 02
E0 64 02