Rod,
Please don't take offense but you need to spend some time learning to use the [CATEGORY SEARCH] function. If you have the "MAIN" option set to ALL, and the "BANK" option set to ALL, and you see duplicate names of a Performance, it is because you are viewing everything.

You can quickly determine if you actually have a duplicate or not, by refining your Search by setting the "Bank" option.

If you set the Bank option to view just your installed Library, there is a good chance the 'duplicate' you see is in another Bank.
Set the Bank to User, find that 'duplicate' - if it is in User stop worrying about it. You'll overwrite it with the next User Bank you load.

If I am misunderstanding what you wrote, I apologize but it sounds like you are confusing Performances installed with those sitting in the User Bank.

Hello BM - I think I see where you're coming from, but it's not that. I do use 'Category Search' as intended (I hope!). When I have 'Bank' set to 'User' and the 'Main' set to 'Piano' there are 12 Pfs (3 lines of the 4 occupied, the 4th line empty). BUT - there is a down arrow bottom right! If I press that, I get a second page with an exact duplicate of only the last 2 lines of the 1st page. This only happens in the Piano, Bass, Strings, and Syn Comp categories. In each case, the last 2 lines of the 1st page are duplicated exactly. There are Pfs in other categories, but no duplication occurs. Exactly the same thing happens when I switch the 'Bank' to the Library I had converted (the only User Pfs are those from that converted Library). So I'm at a loss - the same Pfs are in both the Library and the User Bank - yet I don't get the same result in all the categories.

Following your line of thought (I think!) I just deleted the Library I had converted to a User Bank, in the hope that that may solve the problem, but it didn't - all still there. I switched to other Banks (and used them), but when I come back to User, the duplicates are still there. And they work - the cursor box is round both instances when I select either, and they play exactly the same.

Hence my original question - can I delete the duplicates from the Categories in any way? I can't in the 'Delete Pf' mode because they don't appear twice - another mystery! I wonder if anyone at Yamaha keeps a record of these things? When I worked for Westinghouse, we spent huge sums trying to make new equipment fail - when all we had to do was give it to customers and they'd break it within a week ...

Hi Rod,

not sure, but I think what you are seeing is some not so obvious behavior of the Montage UI (I don't dare to call it a bug 🙂 ). This happens for me as well and confused me a couple of times. You can reproduce this with the presets on Montage 1.50:

1. Do category search and select the preset bank
2. Make sure that "Piano" is select as the category
3. Now if you page down to the last page you should see two lines, the first line starting with "Rock Brite Piano".
4. If you scroll one page back, you see that that the two lines you just saw are there as well as line 3 +4

   I think from the just mentioned page with the 4 lines you should not able to scroll down to the last page with the two lines. My guess this is a typical off by one programming error. Seen that in many UIs...

    

To me, duplicates would be if you did a search (the magnifying glass box) on something specific and saw two of the same names within the same page. If you're paging down and seeing the same things as a different screen, but shifted to different lines - then this would be just how the scrolling works as opposed to duplicates.

Note that using the hardware buttons during the category search (They say MUTE and SOLO on top, then on bottom / PAGE /). If you press the down "/" page button, the screen only moves by 8 positions which takes the bottom 8 of the results and places them in the top 8, then shows the next "page" of information as the bottom 8. Technically, the page up/down buttons are 1/2 page up and down buttons. The reason why they did this is because you can only - using buttons - get to 8 performances at a time (use the ARP SELECT buttons 1-8 to see). So they made the button page up/down only scroll by 8 performances so you could use buttons to select any performance without having to use the touchscreen.

I imagine you are using the touchscreen for everything - so maybe with newer firmware some wires got crossed. Or perhaps your description and my understanding of it are not matching.

Who knows - maybe Yamaha got questions why the button page up/down scrolled differently than the touchscreen up/down touch-areas - so they got fed up with explaining the difference and just made them the same at some point.

Hi Jason,

thanks for your explanation. I see what you are saying, that's still the same in the new firmware. Never realized the difference between the two ways of scrolling. Indeed the screen buttons do a full page scroll, the hardware buttons do a half scroll. So this is consistent behavior and apparently working fine.

It did confuse me, though, and I don't think this behavior is mentioned in the manuals. I least I never came across this and a quick search in the manual did not show anything. I also still believe that this is what Rod sees, so I am not the only one confused. Especially the combination of using sometimes the screen and sometimes the hardware buttons can get you to some confusing results :-).But now with a logical explanation this is easier to not get confuses.

Hello Stefan and Jason - I understand why the hardware buttons would only scroll 8 at a time, makes sense. But I'm not using hardware buttons at all for scrolling, only for Pf selection (UpDownLeftRight). For scrolling I use the arrows bottom right of the screen, which change a full page at a time. Normally when the Category is at the last Pf, there is no down arrow - only an up arrow. In my case - even though there are empty slots on the page - there is still a down arrow, which, when tapped, repeats the last 2 lines of the previous page. My confusion arises because this does not happen on all Categories - only on a few of them (as my previous post). I am still casting about for a reason, and how to get rid of them. I did delete one in the 'Pf Delete' function, but as expected, both the original and the duplicate were deleted.

Please do a search (magnifying glass) and see if you see two of the same performance name side-by-side. If you do not, then what you are encountering is scrolling and not duplicates.

The other possibility is that if you have a down arrow and no more than 8 "off-page" performances past the 1st page. There are 17-24 total performances in a given search filter (between category, subcategory, and text search settings thus "filtering" the list down) then I would imagine the page down may elect to scroll by a half page to minimize the "dead space" that would otherwise be shown. This would be a good thing so you can select the most performances instead of having page two having say 15 blank spaces (worst case).

Hello Jason - did a 'magnifying glass' search on one item, and it came up with just the one, which worked fine. Back to the Category it came from (Piano) and no change - the last two lines of page 1 (which are lines 2 and 3 - line 4 is blank) are repeated as lines 1 and 2 on page 2 - which shouldn't even be there. As I say - this ONLY happens on a few Categories, not on every one, Whether it's a duplicating or a scrolling problem, is it possible to stop it happening? Can I delete the repeated Pfs (and the redundant page)?

Hello Yamaha - Following on this thread - I created a new Pf in the 'Piano' Category, and sure enough it appears where it should, at the end of my previous efforts - and also on the end of the completely redundant 'repeat' page with its two-line limit.

It would seem that the ;screentap' page change function is somehow tripping over the hardware button press half-page change function at some level, which constitutes a 'bug' hat requires your expertise to sort out and remove, please. It doesn't seem to be dangerous, just confusing and extremely annoying!

Right now it seems my only recourse is to delete my edited Pfs from the offending Categories. and thereby lose them together with the 'repeat' page (hopefully!). I will try to re-instate them by re-installing the appropriate Library, but I fear that will also have the bug and I'll be back where I started. I can delete them all, again and then overwrite the Library, then re-create the edited Pfs - but the whole thing could re-occur without a bug-fix. Please, guys!

Thanks!

Rod,

I could only reproduce your observance by showing any list of performances which has between 9 and 16 performances. In other words, if the category search shows ALL the performances on the first page - and technically does not need a 2nd page because all are shown - but more than 8 performances are shown. Then the GUI will still allow for moving to the 2nd page with the touch screen and will "shift" all the performances up by 4 performances.

As an example, for me, is Bank All, Category Piano, Sub Category Modern.

This sub-category shows 11 total pianos. The touchscreen has slots for 16 total pianos - so all pianos in this sub-category are shown. Still, there is - on the touchscreen - a page down area "V" in the lower-right corner of the touchscreen. When pressing this, the 1st 4 pianos in the list go away and all pianos are "shifted up" by 4 pianos.

Page 1:

Acoustic Piano DA ; AcPiano+FMPiano DA ; AcPf+FM Pf+Pad DA ; Schlager Weapon 1
The New Ballad ; Rock Grand Piano ; Aggressive Grand ; Tacky
House Piano ; Rock Brite Piano ; Piano Rock S6 ; (empty slot)
(empty slot) ; (empty slot) ; (empty slot) ; (empty slot)

You can see - all pianos are shown already on the first screen. There's still the option to show page 2. I do not believe this is a bug. I think the reason why Yamaha decided to allow for scrolling in the above case is because the 3rd line (House Piano ; Rock Brite Piano ; Piano Rock S6) cannot be reached by using the hardware key shortcuts (ARP Select 1-8) - so the scrolling feature allows for "reaching" these with the hardware shortcuts.

Page 2:
The New Ballad ; Rock Grand Piano ; Aggressive Grand ; Tacky
House Piano ; Rock Brite Piano ; Piano Rock S6 ; (empty slot)
(empty slot) ; (empty slot) ; (empty slot) ; (empty slot)
(empty slot) ; (empty slot) ; (empty slot) ; (empty slot)

It's very important to get settled that what you are experiencing are not duplicates and what you are seeing is what, at first glance, appears to be inconsistent behavior with the page scrolling. However, also understand how this ties into the use of hardware buttons - which is why there are cases when scrolling will advance by either 1/2 page or 1/4 page.

The general rule is this: if any search results show performances in slots 9-16, then the page down feature will be enabled until you reach a list which shows slots 9-16 as (empty slot). The hardware buttons only map to slots 1-8, so the page forward feature will advance until all performances fit within slots 1-8.

As a means of orienting yourself - I would suggest doing the following experiment:

1) Use category search to find your previously defined "duplicate performance" cases - which are really 1/2 and 1/4 scrolling cases.
2) You can use touchscreen to scroll by using the touchscreen area up and down arrows - however force yourself NOT to use the touchscreen to select a performance. In this experiment, you must use the hardware button shortcuts to select a performance.
3) Select a performance by pressing any of these hardware buttons:
a) ARP SELECT 1-8 (last row of buttons on right-hand side of keyboard). These are also called Number C [1]-[8] in the owner's manual
b) [ENTER] button - use this to make your final selection. This button is located to the right of the touchscreen and below the DATA DIAL (jog wheel).

If you limit yourself to using the hardware buttons - you will notice that the way the page scrolling works helps you select any performance. And if the page scrolling worked differently, then the hardware buttons would have cases where you could not make a selection.

Feedback to Yamaha (GUI usability feedback):

I'm sure someone on the development team lost the argument of how to sensibly map the hardware buttons for the CATEGORY SEARCH feature. I would have voted to keep Number A [1]-[16] as part selection - since that keeps the silkscreen labeling of the buttons consistent with what they affect during CATEGORY SEARCH. I would have mapped Number B [1]-[8] and Number C [1]-[18] as main category instead of using Number A [1]-[16]. I would keep the Bank/Page buttons as assigned today (BANK for selecting no assign/init and PAGE for page scrolling). And sub-category I would have suggested using SHIFT+Number B [1]-[8]. The use of "SHIFT" is a down-side, but I think this type of organization makes more sense overall. But I'm sure this was already presented and shot down in favor of the organization we have today.

Hello Jason - I have followed your reasoning and tested your conclusions, and you are correct. That doesn't actually surprise me! The problem only occurs when the last page (or only page) contains 9 to 16 Pfs. On multi-page Categories the problem is there on first step-through, but corrects itself if you step back one page, which has miraculously filled up so that the 'repeat' page is now the last page. If you step back to the beginning, it does it all over again - I imagine the Pfs all move up to achieve this, but of course it's not possible to check that. It is only in the single-page Categories that the problem persists despite stepping back, because there's nowhere to go with only one page. So very much thank you for your clinical explanation! I also agree with your suggestion that Yamaha should make the buttons match the page capacity, in the same way that I believe they should make the number of Libraries match the number of Categories. Refinements ... maybe one day?

It would have taken me a month of Sundays to figure out what you so concisely laid out. Bravo!