I found what was causing my issue. I never realized that the default value for a part knob is NOT ZERO! On the M8X it is 512.

So performing the test I outlined earlier produced sound because the offset value assign knob 1 was providing was 512 at the middle of the curve and NOT at the zero value where I thought it was.

And, of course, if you twirl the knob itself to zero the sound disappears as it should.

It was the order of programming that resulted in the problem.

I had the super knob set to zero when I made the super knob assignment. But then I stored the performance without actually moving the super knob or the part assign knob.

So the stored performance had a value of 0 for the super knob, 512 for the assign knob controlling volume and 0 for the part volume itself.

When the performance is loaded if you just play it the part will sound even though the super knob is at zero because it isn't synced with the part knob value.

Moving the super knob at all will cause the assign knob value to 'jump' to the proper value based on the super knob programming.

The fix is to make sure the super knob is moved and then reset to zero AFTER making assignments of the part knobs to the super knob and then save the performance. This now saves the performance with a saved part knob value of 0 and a saved super knob value of 0.

Can someone check and post what the default INIT values are for the part knobs on an original Montage and on a Modx? 

Assignable knobs are saved parameters for each Part.  When you recall a Performance, whatever is in the Part settings will be the values.

You can make the values match superknob's control of these knobs by setting superknob where you want it then storing the (user) Performance.   

So yes, the far left hand side of a standard curve (unipolar) is 0 offset.   The offset (output) will only be non-zero if the input value  (source controller) is not 0 and hence you would not be sitting at the far left.

You can make the values match superknob's control of these knobs by setting superknob where you want it then storing the (user) Performance.

The 'gotcha' is that you actually have to move the super knob AFTER you make a part knob assignment or it won't 'sync' with the super knob.

If the super knob is already 'where you want it' when you make the part knob assignment it's easy to forget, as I did, that you still need to move the super knob or that sync won't happen. Then when you store the performance the part knob value will get stored with whatever value it had at the time of the assignment. By default that value, on the M8X, will be 512 which is the middle of the range.

Not sure why the default knob value is mid range instead of zero but on the M8X it is.

What is the default knob value on an original Montage or Modx? I'm expecting it must be 64 which would be mid-range for them.

Just out of curiosity, what's the source you're using for "default"?  What I mean ... Are the Init Performances (Init Normal AWM2, Init Normal FM-X, etc) regarded as default or another/different means to arrive at a "default" state?

Just out of curiosity, what's the source you're using for "default"? What I mean ... Are the Init Performances (Init Normal AWM2, Init Normal FM-X, etc) regarded as default or another/different means to arrive at a "default" state?

You ask some REALLY useful questions that get to the heart of things and this is one of them.

Using 'default' was a poor choice of words so glad you ask. Yes, I meant the values you see for any of the INIT performances if you:

1. select Init Normal (AWM2) in category search

2. press the assign button left of the super knob

3. select part 1 using the button under the sliders

The sub display will show 512 for all 8 unassigned part common knobs

4. select common using the button left of the part 1 button under the sliders

The sub display will show 512 for all 8 unassigned common knobs

BUT - if you delete an assignment the knob value is NOT changed or reset to any default. And any 'name' given to the knob isn't changed either.

1. make an assignment to part knob 5

2. give it a name of 'K5' and a value of 234

3. Store it all as version1

4. load a different performance

5. load version 1

6. delete the assignment to knob 5 for part 1

7. store as version 2

Whenever you load version 2 and do the 1st test above (showing 'defaults') you will see a name of 'K5' and a value of 234 for knob 5 even though there are no assignments for knob 5.

Obviously that sort of thing happens in the presets where the sound designer has programmed a knob and then deleted it - any name and value that knob had will get saved as the 'default' for that performance and part.

And twirling a knob that isn't even used will change its value and that value becomes a 'default' when the performance is saved.

The lesson seems to be that you can't rely on ANY knob to have any particular value or name unless you stored it there yourself. Just making assignments isn't enough to get everything synced the way you want.

Granted - the above won't usually be a problem. But I expect it comes into play when you switch performances (manually, live set, SSS) and aren't twirling the knobs to sync things.

The issue for me was that I had always assumed that the INIT performance knobs would have zero values since they had never been programmed. I was wrong. 

Ok, if Init Normal AWM2 has anything you'd wish was different in terms of a starting point then edit the AWM2 stock init Perf and store it as your own.  Maybe even add to a library so you can initialize the User bank and not lose it.  You could set the knob values all to 0 if you wanted.

I personally think it's better to think of curves, for example, as inputs and outputs.  If you see an unexpected output then trace back to the input (source controller) value rather than assume its value.  The hard ones to see, at least in Montage classic, would be ribbon, MS Lanes, and mod wheel since none of these have indicators or menus showing the current value.  Pretty much the rest has a place you can go to look at the value (except for un-"caught" values like an expression pedal that hasn't moved yet).  

Assignable knobs and superknob have both LED indicators and menus that show current values.  So for these in particular, there is no need to make an assumption of their current value.

Assignable knobs and superknob have both LED indicators and menus that show current values. So for these in particular, there is no need to make an assumption of their current value.

I'm afraid it isn't as simple as what you say above.

A knob isn't always a part knob and even when it is it doesn't always show its value. For example, from a factory reset the default screen on the sub display for an Init Normal (AWM2) is the 'Level' tab of the 'Osc' page that shows 127 for the level for each of the 8 possible elements even though only 1 element is actually active.

The knobs are LEVEL knobs for the elements - not part or common knobs.

And if you then Edit part 1 and make a control assignment to one of the part knobs there is NO indication of any 'current' value for that knob. Those knobs are rotary encoders and so do NOT have a 'hard' value - only a value that is programmed into them.

IMO it is perfectly reasonable to make an assumption that if an INIT knob isn't programmed its offset value would be 0. Not being programmed means it doesn't make a contribution so why should merely making an assignment suddenly give it a non-zero contribution. The user should decide how much of an contribution to give it, if any.

So, for me, a default of mid-range (512 on the M models) doesn't seem to be justified. Further, assuming it was justified then it seems to me that the value should be reset to 512 when you delete all of a knobs assignments and that the knob name should be removed as it no longer reflects any use of the knob.

I'm just passing along detailed info about the anomolies I discovered to aid others in avoiding them.

And, hopefully, someone will test on an original Montage and a Modx and confirm my expectation that 64 is the default on those instruments. That would be the most consistent implementation.

Montage classic Init Normal AWM2 sets part and common Assignable knobs to 64.

That these are not constantly displayed isn't an issue.  This is a matter of you're programming the keyboard - which is a process that has the benefit of taking time to explore with no pressures of a live gig - when you encounter something unexpected you press a couple buttons to see the Common and Part assignable knob actual values.  For me it's HOME for common the I press the part select buttons to run through each Part (or the one Part I'm interested in).  This will reveal the input values for these.  Super Knob's value I usually look at the scene tab for SK that shows its current value.

That these are not constantly displayed isn't an issue.

I agree - it is more knowing when you need to double-check them before a STORE to make sure they are what you need them to be.

This is a matter of you're programming the keyboard -

Yes - and I constantly have to remind myself, and remember, that you are almost ALWAYS programming the keyboard if you move a controller.

So when you are working on one area you have to be cognizant of changes you make that might affect another area so you can 'undo' those other changes before you STORE.

I almost wish there was a way to 'lock' a part so that it can't accidentally (by a controller) be changed while you work on other things. It isn't a problem for things that apply offsets since those don't change the underlying parameter value they only change the effective real-time value.

You are always approaching this like a Computer Science Project. Dissections, measurements, coding, programming. 

I think taking a step back and looking at it as a "Synthesiser" will answer a lot of your typical questions. 

The technical aspects (The "Operating System" if you like) are just modern "conveniences" to enhance the possibilities and power of what it otherwise a "traditional synthesiser".  

It's the "Traditional Synthesiser" stuff that's causing your confusion.  

If you haven't already, try grabbing hold of a "knob per function"  Synth and playing with it.

Behringer are pumping out tons of "true to vintage" products in this respect.  A well respected "beginner" Synth is the Korg Minilogue. An ASM Hydrasynth Explorer crams a ton of established Synth abilities into a relatively cheap and portable box...  it's a compendium of synth knowledge.

You can afford a Montage M,  so hopefully none of the above are beyond reach.  They remove the "OS" of a Workstation, and give you direct, hands-on, visible contact with "core" Synthesis. 

I'm sure Yamaha have no issues recommending outside of brand.  They have contributed their fair share of famous "core" synths,  but it's no longer their business model. They have moved onwards and upwards, but a lot of what they did, their Synthesiser  "genes",  are in the Montage. 

Posted by: Antony

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You are always approaching this like a Computer Science Project. Dissections, measurements, coding, programming. 

Playing with a knob per function synth can certainly be enlightening. I had a Prophet 6 a few years back and yeah, it's all right there in front of you.

That said, it's worth noting that many people actually enjoy the computer science part of things for the pure joy of doing it. Geeking out, whether to achieve a particular sound or make the pixels on a monitor dance, can be fun in its own right. I know I'm not the only guy here who slings code for a living, and I certainly wouldn't do it if it wasn't enjoyable (although there are days...).

Personally, I tend to do geek stuff in a batch when I'm in that head space, because after that I'm done with computer science class and just want to make music.  I'm either a geek or a musician, but rarely both at once. If I have to stop and be a programmer in the middle of a song it completely takes me out of musician mode. 

But different folks like lots of different things, as I'm reminded when I see someone's patched up Emerson-esque modular system that gives me anxiety attacks just looking at it.

Geeking out, whether to achieve a particular sound or make the pixels on a monitor dance, can be fun in its own right

For me it is a question of efficiency. You can use SysEx commands to make parameter changes. So you can create your own 'macros' by creating and sstoring a series of those commands to make a related set of parameter changes with the push of just one button.

Contrast that with the menu diving you have to do to manually make those changes using only the touchscreen and knobs.

// change common assign knob 1 value to 127
// change scene to 2 (0x01)
// change superknob position to 20 hex
// set part 1 filter cutoff frequency value to 20 (64 + 20)

The SysEx command for each of those is just a short line of text. Put those 4 lines in a file and the file represents a 'macro' that will make ALL of the changes in it happen at the push of a button.

Go ahead and make those 4 changes manually as a test and you will see why I would rather just select a small file and push a button to make the changes automatically.

Want to hear what a performance sounds like with several different cutoff frequencies? Create a simple FOR loop that changes the parameter value from 0 to 120 in steps of 10 with a 5 second wait between iterations

// for (i=0; i < 121; i+= 10)

// set part 1 filter cutoff frequency value to i

Push a button and listen to the result without having to manually modify parameters.

Those type of 'loop' operations are really handy experimenting with the various FM-X parameters such as Coarse and Fine. Using two nested loops the outer loop can step through a series of Coarse values while the inner loop steps through a series of Fine values (or skirt or other).

Push a button and listen. When you hear something you want to explore further push another button and that particular SysEx command will be saved to a 'LikeIt' file so you can easily go back later and reproduce and/or use it as a starting point for more research with other parameters.

I don't use the Java and SysEx to be 'geeky'. I use it because it is the easiest way to automate the search for things of interest. Neither the instrument, nor most DAWs, have the ability to let you create your own series of macros to automate stuff.

I'm sure that, as a programmer, you can appreciate the power, and relative simplicity, of that approach.

Posted by: Toby

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I don't use the Java and SysEx to be 'geeky'. I use it because it is the easiest way to automate the search for things of interest. Neither the instrument, nor most DAWs, have the ability to let you create your own series of macros to automate stuff.

I'm sure that, as a programmer, you can appreciate the power, and relative simplicity, of that approach.

Geeky was a compliment. 🙂

It's nice to have the skills to be able to automate things. The reason all my boxes at home are Windows, even though Mac is probably a better choice for multimedia, is due to the fact that I make a living on MS tech so that's what I know. Don't have the functionality I need at the push of a button? No problem. I'm geeky enough to know how to make that happen.

I do this in the studio as well. If there's something I need to happen, and the gizmos are capable of making it happen, I'll take the same approach as you - rtfm, figure out how to make it happen, and then in the future I just have to push one button.

But that doesn't mean I don't have fun getting my geek on!