I don't have a Montage M,  so I am assuming the Var, Rev and Master FX Signal path will remain unchanged from the OG Montage. 

Just for clarity, I like to think of Insert Fx  as "FX Pedals" of the type a Guitarist might use between his Guitar and Amplifier.  Whatever FX pedals the Guitarist uses, affect only his signal and sound produced by the Amplifiers Speaker Cone. This individual sound is then picked up by the microphone, and sent to the Mixing Desk. 

At the Mixing Desk,  there are also inputs from the Microphones of the Bassist, the Drummer, the  Keyboardist and the Vocalist. Total of 5 Instrument Tracks.

Very often, the Studio Producer may decide to set up Rack Unit FX (e.g. Reverb) in a "Send/Return Bus".  

In this example,  the Reverb is always switched on, and set up (e.g. Plate Reverb) ready for use. 

The producer can "send" any or all of the Instrument Tracks to the Reverb Unit.  Each Instrument Track is "split" aka "tapped" onto the Send/Return Bus. 

Each Instrument Track has its own "Send Level" Knob or Slider.  In fact, the Mixer likely has the ability to set up multiple "Buses", and there will be a dedicated "Send Level" control for each Bus. 

Since each Instrument track is "Tapped",  the original (aka "Dry") audio remains present on each instrument track. 

The Reverb Bus has a "global"  Return Level Knob.  The Return Bus is fed back into the overall Mix Track.  The Mix Track is effectively the Mix Output, a combination of all Instrument "Dry" Tracks, plus any "FX Return Buses".   The FX Return Bus is a "Wet" Signal i.e. effects processed signal.  

In the case of Reverb,  the Producer can apply the same "dimension" to all tracks, to make them sound like they are all playing in the same space.  Applying different Reverbs to each instrument track will sound messy, be hard to manage, plus you'd need multiple expensive Reverb Units for each track.  

That's why the "Bus" method is used. It allows the same effect, to be applied to all tracks simultaneously. 

The Producer can control the "amount" of Effect applied to each instrument by adjusting its individual "Send Level" to each of the respective Buses.  For example, he may want to apply very little Reverb (Low Send Level) to the Vocals, to keep them clear and "up front".  He may apply more Reverb to Guitar, Bass and Keyboard to set them further back in the "illusion" of space. 

The Montage has 2 Send/Return Buses,  "Variation" and "Reverb". 

They are Parallel Buses by default.  Whatever is Sent to the Variation Effect is returned on its own Bus.  Likewise for the Reverb.  

Examples of Variation FX could be Delay, Chorus, Phaser etc.  Anything that might enhance a single, or an ensemble of instruments.  For example, Slap Back Delay might thicken Guitar and Bass Parts,  or on a Snare drum. 

On the OG Montage,  there is an option to run Variation and Reverb in Series,  or some "inbetween" Hybrid of Parallel and Series. 

Like the Send Bus Level on each Instrument,  the Variation Bus has a Send Level "Tap" on its Output (its Return Bus).  This is the "VAR to REV" Level.

This sends some amount of the Variation Output through the Reverb. 

If...

Var Return = 0 and Var to Rev = 127,  then 100% of the Variation FX is sent via the Reverb FX to the Mix Bus. i.e. 100% Series. 

Var Return = 127 and Var to Rev = 127,  then the Variation Output is sent to both the Reverb, and direct to the Mix Bus. i.e. Hybrid Parallel and Series. 

How, when or why you might use the Var to Rev is up to you. But be careful it doesn't wash out or spoil the overall mix. 

Finally, the Mix Bus (thats everything... Instruments + Insert FX, Var FX and Reverb) is fed into the Master FX.  This is where you'd apply the final "polish" to the Mix (i.e. Performance).

So, I appreciate this doesn't go into the specific graphics or schematics in the User Manuals,  but it does provide an explanation of "How it actually works".  Hopefully that will add some sense to whatever you are reading in the Manuals. 

Direct Answers

If Var Is Switched OFF? 

Then Variation Effect will not be applied to any Instrument (or Part). It will not "cut off" the Audio coming from the Parts. It will not "cut off" the Reverb. The "Variation Bus" is switched off, thats all. 

If Rev is Switched OFF?

By default, the Reverb effect will not be applied to any Parts. It will not cut off the Audio coming from the Parts. 

If Var Return > 0,  the the Variation Effect will not be cut off.  If  Var Return = 0 and Var to Rev = 127 (>0) then switching off REV, will also cut off the Var audio (because it is trying to pass through an effect that isn't there... there is no return path. 

Regards "Modulation" Inputs shown for various FX Blocks in the Ops Manual.   These are just examples (e.g. Ring Mod), and the attributes shown are specific to the type of FX Chosen.  

The Audio Routing (Audio Signal Path) remains the same as described in my previous post regardless of whichever FX is chosen.  The Modulation Source is not Audio... it is some form of external "Control Source" that affects the behaviour of the Effect itself. 

Think of it as an Input from an LFO, Envelope, Expression Pedal etc.  In unusual cases like "Ring Modulation" or "Side Chaining",  then the external Modulator may be an "Audio Source", but it is just a Tap off an audio soyrce, it's not in the Audio Signal Path. 

A good example is Side Chaining.  A Drum Beat (e.g. 4 to the Floor Bass Drum) is fed into a Compressors Side Chain Input.   The Compressors Audio Input is just a basic Synth Pad.   With each beat of the Drum, the compressor triggers,  and compresses the Synth Pad Audio, such that it "pulses".  

If you had headphones plugged into the Audio Output of the Compressor,  what you would hear is a "Pulsing Synth Pad".... you wouldn't hear the Drum i.e. The Modulation Source.

It all gets a bit confusing, because in all likelihood, you can hear the Drum Beat (Its the Audio on another Track/Part). But,  you are hearing the Drum Audio through a dedicated Audio Signal Path, not through the Effect's Modulation Input. 

So, "FX Blocks" retain the same function and signal flow regardless of what Effect is chosen.

Something to watch out for when selecting FX is  their "Dry/Wet Mix" Parameters.

For example,  when choosing a Reverb for the "Rev Bus",  you'll likely want to make sure it is 100% Wet Output (also known as a "Kill Dry" configuration).  This is because the Reverb Output (Rev Return) is mixed back with the original Dry Signals at the Mix Bus. 

Having any form of "Dry" signal passing through the Reverb is at best, redundant, and at worst, can lead to comb-filtering (if the Dry signal through the reverb experiences some processing lag). 

The same applies to Delay, Chorus, Flanger, Phaser etc. 

In some cases,  you might not want any Dry Signal whatsoever  e.g. Tremolo, or case in point, Side Chained pulsing.  

So its worth staying conscious of Dry/Wet Audio Routing inside each FX Block

First off - a disclaimer.  This isn't a dig.  I like discussing the features including from the ground up.  Your questions are good/valid/not an issue/etc ... That out of the way ...

Some of these questions also invite simple and straight-forward (not difficult, not time consuming) interaction with your instrument.  Turn "off" EQ or an effect.  You'll still hear sound (caveat: in most cases ... there is always a way to shoot yourself in the foot so to speak - you can discover those but do not seem directly related to your question which appears to cover the general cases).  Most of these require two taps (of the touch screen or physical buttons followed by the touch screen).  The summaries here are great and it's good to have the academics documented in different ways.  I'm just presenting the other side of the coin here -- and, BTW, I think both sides are equally as valid -- where I encourage/promote hands-on exploration in tandem with documentation reading.

Some of these questions also invite simple and straight-forward (not difficult, not time consuming) interaction with your instrument.  

I was expecting (hoping?) that they might invite simple and straight-forward answers. But, disclaimer aside, for some reason you didn't offer an answer to ANY of them. 

Let me try wording things differently and see if that helps anyone see the basis for my questions.

The thrust of my questions is about the actual signal flow - it is NOT about whether you can, or cannot, detect/hear anything as a result of that signal flow. I don't see how a 'use your ear' test is going to be definitive about the actual signal flow.

Again - refer to the diagram on p.216 showing 'Routing' for effects. Contrast that graphic with the one p.214 of the Data List doc that also shows 'routing' although not for effects.

The data list graphic shows actual switches and a different signal path when a switch is open/moved versus when a switch is closed. When a switch is open it is clear what path, or paths, the signal takes since the signal won't jump across a gap in the lines.

The Operations graphic provides LABELS for switches but specifically does NOT show a different signal path just because of the position of the switch.

The questions about those switches is whether the signal STOPS at the switch if the switch is OFF or if the actual path BYPASSES the effect and continues on.

Q - does the 'Var To Rev' path end at the 'Rev Switch' if the switch is OFF or does it bypass  the Rev effect and act as a 'Rev Return' of zero .

I would point out that in either case you can NOT tell the difference simply by listening since there would be no reverb component in either case.

Re the MFX component on the graphic. This shows 'Ring Modulator' with a 'Modulator' box on top but the 'Side Chain' example looks the same.

To me there appears to be THREE inputs to the MFX effect:

1) the signal via the red arrow left of 'MFX that provides the feed from '16 Parts & Audio'

2) the signal via the 'Modulator' choice selected in the drop down

3) the signal via the red arrow entering the top of the 'Modulator' box that provides a feed from both the 'Var' and 'Rev' effects if either of those effect switches is on.

Q - are there really THREE inputs to  the MFX effect? My current understanding is that both Side Chain and Ring Modulator only have two inputs. A Ring Modulator then uses both inputs to compute an output that represents the SUM and DIFFERENCE of the two inputs. But for Side Chain the main input is also the output but that output has been MODULATED by the side chain source signal.

So if the Modulator/SideChain selection is 'Part2' how is the THIRD signal from the 'Var' and 'Rev' effects (which might be for any/all of 16 parts) being used in combination with a Modulator/SideChain source to alter the main signal feed coming through the MFX red arrow?

Frankly I don't see how any test I might do is going to tell me whether the MFX effect has three inputs or only two but if you can provide the particulars I'd be more than happy to do the test.

There were already direct answers.  I was offering another side of the coin.  This is meant to be helpful and the entire reason for the disclaimer was because I expected a defensive response and didn't want or intend that.  I almost wrote that in but backed it out because I was being optimistic and could see there could be blowback from it.  You've got good answers already.  The hands on I generically suggested had some specifics outlined.

Now you may or may not have new questions or clarifications.  Someone else would be happy to address your questions.

There were already direct answers.  

I'm confused - I just reread the entire thread and I don't see any reply at all to this question which I tried to clarify in my last reply:

Q - are there really THREE inputs to  the MFX effect?

Nor do I see anything addressing whether the InsA, InsB and MFX switches act as an open circuit or as a bypasss.

It's ok if you don't understand the questions or if I can't explain them so you can. They seem clear to me. Hopefully someone will be able to offer their insights into the signal flow.

Posted by: Toby

↑

Q - are there really THREE inputs to  the MFX effect?

If you go through my posts again, you'll see this question was answered. 

The Schematic is "wrong" in that it omits an important "Block" in the Signal Flow. 

That "Block" is the "Mixer" or "Mixing Bus"... however you want to call it. 

The Mixer has the following Audio Inputs

16x  Stereo Audio "Dry" Signals from each of the Parts.

1x Stereo Pair Audio "Wet" (i.e. processed by a Var Effect) Signal from the Var Return

1x Stereo Pair Audio "Wet" (i.e. processed by a Reverb Effect) Signal from the Rev Return

1x Stereo Audio Dry from the Analogue Input

1x Stereo Audio Dry from the Digital (USB to Host) input. 

The Mixer has the following Outputs

1x  Left "Mixed" Dry & Wet Audio Signal

1x Right "Mixed" Dry & Wet Audio Signal.

The Master Effect Block  (call them "Mastering" Effects) has the Following Audio Inputs [See Note 1 below].

1x Left "Mixed" Dry & Wet Audio Signal from the Mixer.

1x Right "Mixed" Dry & Wet Audio Signal from the Mixer.

The Master Effect Block has the following Audio Outputs

1x Left "FX Mastered" Audio Signal that feeds the Master EQ Block.

1x Right "FX Mastered" Audio Signal that feeds the Master EQ Block. 

The Master EQ feeds the "Main L&R" Output Jacks unless something else is selected (e.g. USB Out). 

Note 1:  If the Effect chosen for the Master FX can be modulated from an external source, then there will be an additional "Modulation Input" that may be configured. 

The Modulation Input, while it may be from an Audio Source, does not enter the Audio Signal Path. It is not considered as an "Audio Input".  The Modulation Source is used only as a means to "Control the Effect".  It is a "Control Input",  similar to an Expression Pedal connected to a "CV" (Control Voltage) Jack. 

Example Given is an External Kick Drum input used to Trigger a Compressor.  The Compressor, when triggered, will cause the (actual) Audio passing through it to briefly compress in sync with the Kick Drum. 

This results in a "Pulsing" or "Throbbing" sound imparted on the Output Audio,  as often heard in Electronic Dance Music.

The Data List Manual indicates the FX that are permitted as Mastering Effects, and also those Effects that may utilise an external Modulation Source (e.g. Ring Mod, VCM Filter etc). 

Posted by: Toby

↑

Nor do I see anything addressing whether the InsA, InsB and MFX switches act as an open circuit or as a bypasss.

If these Effects are "Switched Off"  they are Bypassed.   These FX sit in "Series" with the Main Audio Signal Path. 

The same is not true of the Var and Rev FX. These Effects sit in "Parallel" with the Main (Dry) Signal Path.   If you turn them Off, you simply won't hear the "Wet" signal they produce e.g. Reverb Reflections.  You are basically disabling the Parallel Send & Return Path.  A Dry signal is already routed to "bypass" these FX anyway.

There is potentially one way you could inadvertantly "cut off" a Var FX.

If you set...

Var Return = 0

Var to Rev = 127

 and then set Rev "Off" 

... then, in theory,  you cut off the Var Effect output.  I've never tried doing this,  but it would take only a minute to prove/disprove the theory. 

I just realised Toby started two threads, similarly titled, basically the same content. So it turns out I've been responding to two threads,  and therefore lost some continuity in my replies.

Now even I'm confused.

I have a strong feeling of Deja Vue. 

@Jason....   

I think I'm on his Ignore List. Or I'm already Dead, and now I'm just a Ghost. 

Maybe you can cut and paste so he can read it. 

LOL.

Not on the ignore list.   I don't have anyone on an ignore list.

Earlier I was referring to your already fairly complete answer in saying the specifics were already answered.  At least my understanding at the time.  In the other thread I was complementing you for reviewing past generation docs.  Thanks for your contributions.

This is what I hear on Montage Classic.  I didn't reference any manuals so any similarities to manuals is coincidental.  I did use the Montage routing screens as somewhat of a guide although I think there are times when the implied routing is somewhere between overly simplified and outright wrong.   At least if this diagram is true.

Since the MFX modulation is tapped into the raw the signal - you can do interesting things.  The "normal" way of creating a modulation source that isn't heard is to route it to the "OFF" output (as opposed to Main L&R outputs it's normally set to).  But when you route to "OFF" you also lose some volume trims and options.  So, alternatively, you can route the signal to Main L&R then set dry level to 0, rev send to 0, and var send to 0 and this effectively isolates the Part's output from anything.  The MFX modulation uses the raw audio before dry level/rev send/var send -- so this will "full bore" provide modulation stimulus even though the signal is isolated from any other audio path.   I thought that was kind of interesting and also a misleading part of the common routing diagram in the Montage Classic GUI.

All of this derived in minutes by turning off this and that and setting levels to this and that.  It took tons more time to draw this since I used a crude program to do it.

I don't think this tries to answer all of your questions, but it should answer many. 

DO watch out for control assignments.  I added CFX Stage as a modulator and was getting strange results.  Then I looked at the control assignments, set the filter to "All", and looked to see what was there.  Rev send and Var send had assignable knobs that offset these which is why var send set to 0 still fed var send.  I deleted those and in fact all of the assignments just to prevent from having to go back and look at those again.  Part 1 the main sound was Init Normal (AWM2) which doesn't have this kind of (not really a) "problem".   There was a reason why I picked a non-Init for Part 2 initially.

Also, the diagram is simplified.  I intentionally don't show var to rev, MFX modulation source options, panning, etc.