Q1 - In the "Real World" whether it is scaled or not depends on whether the Send Bus is "Pre-Fader" or "Post Fader".  Yamaha don't make it clear, so the easiest way to find out is to try it.

Set up a very Basic Single Part Patch with a "pluck" type sound (Fast Attack, Quick Decay).  

Set REV SEND = 0

Set VAR Effect to a Basic Delay with 6 or 7 Repeats... make sure in the Delay Effect it is 100% "Wet".  Set the Delay Time to something noticeable like 600ms. 

Set Part Volume = 127

Set Dry Level = 127

Set Var Level = 90

Set Var Return = 100. 

When you play a single Note,  You should hear your "Dry" signal immediately... it's the Note you played.

600ms later you should hear the first "Echo",  which will be at a slightly lower volume. 600ms another, at even more reduced volume and so on. 

If the VAR Effect is "Pre-Fader",  then turning down Dry Level to Zero, should remove the Dry Signal, but leave the "Wet Echoes" in Place. 

Try it... when you play a note,  if you hear "nothing",   then hear echo repeats 600ms later, the VAR Send is Pre-Fader.

If you hear no echo repeats either, then the Var Send is "Post Fader".  You can try turning up Dry Level to 64.  If your Dry Note is still louder than the echo repeats that follow it, then the Var Send is Scaled with the Dry Level... which would follow "real world" logic. 

It will be the same for REV.

Q2 - This is a case of a "ambiguous" or poor Explanation in the Manual.  

If you look at the Schematic on Pg 216,  you will see the Red Line coming from "16 Parts & External Audio" splits into 3 Signals.

This "Split Point" represents the "AudioTaps" I referred to in my earlier Post. 

Back to that Pg 216 Schematic.

In effect, the incoming Audio is Split into 3... The Original "Dry" signal, plus two "Copies" that will be sent to the Var and Rev respectuvely. 

The Red Line that goes "Up" is the Variation Send  Bus.

The Red Line that goes directly Right, is the Reverb Send Bus.

The Red Lind that goes down, is the Original "Dry",  unprocessed signal, and is fed directly into the "Master FX" Block.  It isn't clear if this a "Dry Mix" or 16 Individual Audio Paths.  Its a "Schematic",  not a wiring diagram.

You will notice that the single Var Output (Return), and the single Rev Output (Return) are also routed directly to this MFX block. 

It is my assumption** that the MFX Block is actually connected to the Output of the Mixing Bus (Or Mixing Block if you will),  although this is not shown in the schematic.

Following that assumption, the 16 Dry Signals, plus the Var Return Signal , plus the Rev Return Signal are fed to a "Mixing Block" and "Mixed" first,  and from there, output to the Master FX Block. 

The Master FX processes the entire "Mix".  The Master FX will likely have its own set of "Dry/Wet" controls, just to complicate things further. 

** If I discover any more, or confirm my assumptions, I'll let you know.  But for now, it makes the most sense to me, that there is a Mixing Stage (not shown) immediately prior to the Master FX Block. 

Confirmation...

If you refer back to the original Montage or MODX Reference Manuals.

Under Section...

Effects Block

Effects Structure

System Effects - Variation and Reverb

In the paragraph, the text explicitly states that all the Dry Signals (A Stereo Pair for each Part) plus the Var Return and the Rev Return are fed into a Mixer, for mixing, and then finally output as a "Master Left and Right" to the Master FX Block. 

If you continue reading down,  the section ends with a "Blow Out" Schematic implying the same. 

This information does not seem to be in the Montage M Operators Manual. 

Since Yamaha keyboards are so similar to each other with slight variation on theme over time - using previous documentation is usually my path for filling in gaps of the current documentation.  Sometimes later docs are "better" - sometimes earlier ones are.  Each generation has a different emphasis and level of detail for various subject areas.  It can be time consuming - but is also rewarding.  The same underlying technology is also used in non-keyboard instruments (like older samplers, older effects units, etc) and so even non-keyboard instruments can be sources of valuable information.

Thumbs up for taking this route.

Since Yamaha keyboards are so similar to each other with slight variation on theme over time - using previous documentation is usually my path for filling in gaps of the current documentation. 

I have checked several of the older docs but they don't help clarify the VERY specific questions that I ask.

Q1 - are these values separate from the Dry Level setting for the part? Or are they scaled based on the Dry Level setting?

That is, if the Dry Level setting is 64 does a Var Send setting of 127 represent a signal level of 64 because it is scaled? Or does it represent a signal level of 127 even though the Dry Level setting is NOT 127?

None of the Montage M, Montage, Modx, Modx+ docs address that question.

My expectation was for a SIMPLE answer of: 1) yes, 2) no or 3) I don't know

Not sure why people are so reluctant to just provide one of those answers.

With occasional exceptions I know how to setup, and conduct, tests to try to elucidate how things work. But I have also found it useful to try to get confirmation from others to help eliminate the possibility that I made a mistake or invalid assumption somewhere along the way.

My own 'ear' tests indicate that the Dry Level setting for the part does NOT restrict, or have ANY effect on the signal level sent via 'Var Send' or 'Rev Send' to those effects or to the signal level sent to the MFX effect. 

A 'Var Send' value of 127 will send the FULL part signal to the Var effect even if the Dry Level setting is zero.

My question was to ask if anyone else has tested this and can confirm my results.

As I previously quoted this is how the docs (all of them) describe Dry Level

Sets the dry level (or the level of the signals not processed by the System Effect) of the Part.
Settings: 0–127

My own interpretation, based on my own tests, is that 'level of the signals not processed by the System Effect' is a reference to signal paths that do NOT pass through the System Effect (e.g. USB output). The Dry Level setting controls the amount of signal fed to paths OTHER that the three (InsA, InsB, MFX) effects.

That is what I was asking others to confirm (or not).

Hope the above helps clarify the purpose of the thread.

Posted by: Toby

↑

My own interpretation, based on my own tests, is that 'level of the signals not processed by the System Effect' is a reference to signal paths that do NOT pass through the System Effect (e.g. USB output). The Dry Level setting controls the amount of signal fed to paths OTHER that the three (InsA, InsB, MFX) effects.

In one of my posts in this thread, I provided a quick test (Using Var = Delay FX) to discover whether the Var & Rev Sends are "Pre" or "Post" Fader.  The "Fader" in this case being the "Dry Level".

Assuming you did this test, it appears you have discovered that the Var and Rev Sends are "Pre Dry Fader".  

So, in the "Mixer" the Dry Level Control allows for a finer Balancing of  a) Part Output "Dry" and b) System Effect  Output "Wet".   The so-called all important "Dry/Wet Mix". 

In any case, I believe it has nothing to do with the levels sent specifically, or exclusively to the USB Outputs.  

I don't own a Montage M. I own a MODX and notice a striking similarity in the text and diagrams of their respective Manuals. 

In the OG Montage/MODX Manuals,  it specifically states that "Dry Level" is only applicable when "Main L&R" is selected as an output. 

Its my guess that this is also true for the Montage M. 

I assume this is the case because anyone choosing USB Output is intending to use a DAW for all the Mixing and FX Processing (in place of the Montage's onboard Mixing, System FX, Master FX and Master EQ).  

In any case, the Digital Audio (USB IN) is passed through System and Master FX, presumably for Main L&R Output. 

To be fair,  this whole subject is quite large,  and probably encompasses more knowledge than you could achieve just by writing "replies". 

If you research "Mixing Desks" on the Web,  a lot of what I have already summarised can be found there.

The Var Send/Return and Rev Send/Return are what are commonly labelled "Aux Channels" on a Hardware Mixer (Aux 1, Aux 2, Aux 3 etc).  They are most commonly used, as per the Montage, as FX Send/Return "Buses".  "Bus" is perhaps a more colloquial term used to describe an Aux Channel. 

It is my belief, at this point,  that the "Dry Level" controls the volume of a "Dry/Unprocessed" Signal, from each Part,  entering the Montage's Mixer. 

To wit,  if you set a Part's Dry Level = 0, and you have set Levels > 0 for the Part's Var Send, Rev Send, and the Performance's Var Return and Rev Return,  then you will only hear "Wet" Signals for that Part. That is 100% Wet, aka "Killed Dry". 

This 100% Wet approach is sometimes used for "ambient backdrops".  The Dry (obvious) signal is removed and only modulated, delayed, or reflected sounds remain creating a "pad like" backwash of sound that fills in the gaps. 

There is a song,  "She Sells Sanctuary" by The Cult,  where the intro is a 100% Wet backdrop, before you hear the "Dry + Effects" guitar enter. 

A good place to start experimenting is with the "Mixer" Screen (Ops Manual Pg22-23, Pg132-137). Just choose Effects that are distinct and be clearly heard as "Not Dry"... a 600ms Delay is a great litmus test. 

That's about all the explaining I can muster on this subject. 

As @Jason pointed out, you can test a lot of this just through Trial and Error. However,  I do understand that Trial and Error is assisted with underlying knowledge. 

The Yamaha Manuals make a lot of assumptions that all this is "already known" to the User. 

Buying a Montage or MODX as a "first ever keyboard" leaves a pretty big mountain to climb. But, its also a great investment, because it's alway's providing more as you learn... you won't grow past it and find it lacking.