This is my Yamaha collection: DX7, SY77, EX5, S80, S90ES (3x), CS6x (3x), PLG150-an (6x), PLG150-vl, PLG150-dx (2x), PLG150-pf

Since the S90ES, I didn’t buy any new Yamaha products; they didn’t work well for me anymore: the horrible S90XS, the Motif8’s are too big/heavy and I didn’t buy the Montage either.

I did buy the MODX8 and work with it for a few months now. The price & weight made it interesting to experiment with it. I’ll certainly use it often, but it will not become my main set-up as long as it can’t achieve anything close to the S90ES.

The only thing stopping me from buying 2 more MODX8’s? The MIDI channel issue.

On a +10 year old the S90ES you can:
-When using the S90ES stand-alone:
--seamlessly switch between up 16 sounds. Back/forth, over and over again, instantly.
--I can make a split of 16 sounds, all played on the S90Es at once
--I can layer 16 sounds on top of each other
-When using an extra keyboard on top, using the S90ES as only source of sound:
--play up to 16 sounds, layered/split on the top keyboard
--nothing needs to be set up on the top keyboard; you only need to choose a MIDI channel on it.

The key is:
-Set everything up on one machine: the S90ES
-use one set-up (Multi on the S90ES)
-thus avoid the need for program switching
-yet you have seamless & super fast “sound switching”

I can even play complete medleys, with tuns of sounds, staying in one Multi, using only S90ES sounds.

This can’t be done on the Montage/MODX, mainly because of the fixed MIDI channels.

No flexible MIDI channels? Then create “external Zone settings” where you can create a zone, to be played on an external keyboard. Preferably one for each MIDI channel, or else one for each MIDI channel 9-16, or else maybe 2 “external zones”. Then only need some basic MIDI channel switching is needed on the external keyboard and the sound of the Montage/MODX shines.

-Xander

I think the answer to my question is going to be a no however thought Id'd ask again before ruling out adding another montage to my setup.

If I have two external synths (Kurzweil and Roland Integra Module) the Kurzweil on channel 16, the Integra on 12-15, can I play sounds from these on the Montage keybed using channels 12-16 on the montage without it effecting any sounds I have setup on Channels 1-8? I have a feeling 9-16 can only be used for external controllers to control but could be wrong. Also how is SSS effected by this? I'm currently running a Kronos but thinking of moving back to the montage for quicker startup and ease of setting up performances.

Regards
Scott

If I have two external synths (Kurzweil and Roland Integra Module) the Kurzweil on channel 16, the Integra on 12-15, can I play sounds from these on the Montage keybed using channels 12-16 on the montage without it effecting any sounds I have setup on Channels 1-8? I have a feeling 9-16 can only be used for external controllers to control but could be wrong. Also how is SSS effected by this? I'm currently running a Kronos but thinking of moving back to the montage for quicker startup and ease of setting up performances.

Here’s how to go about thinking about it... the MONTAGE can transmit discreetly on 8 channels simultaneously. It is an 8-Zone Master Keyboard Controller. (Think of the keys as a separate entity and you have three tone generators).

This means if you are playing the Kurzweil on Channel 16, and the Roland on Channels 12-15, you can simultaneously use three Part slots to control the internal MONTAGE. Simultaneously, is the key word. That’s a total of eight simultaneous KBD CTRL slots. That is the theoretical maximum.

The KBD CTRL icon (found available on the first eight Part slots of your MONTAGE) can be activated on the Part slots you are actively (simultaneously) controlling. Each would need to be on its own channel to maintain discreet control. Those slots controlling external devices can be any channel you desire. Any channel!

If you recall a three Part MONTAGE Performance, it will occupy Parts slot 1, 2, and 3
The Kurzweil would occupy Part slot 4, set to Zone Transmit Ch = 16
The Roland would occupy Part slots 5, 6, 7, and 8, set to Transmit on channels 12, 13, 14 and 15, respectively.

You can now split, layer, split/layer, any of these 8 sounds across your keyboard you can also map controllers to each Zone as you require. You can send Bank and Program messages Out to each device, you can send Volume and/or Pan messages, you can setup to control these in real-time using the MONTAGE Faders...
Think of each sound making device as a separate Zone. Any Part slot can Transmit externally on any MIDI channel to any external device.

If you setup a Multi-Part MONTAGE Performance with six Parts, 1-6, slot 7 could be the Kurzweil, slot 8 could be the Roland... total is 8. All could be played simultaneously.

With the Zone Master feature you determine what, if anything, is transmitted from the MONTAGE per slot (on a per Performance basis).
The MONTAGE can control eight Zone Slots, simultaneously.

A slot can be set to trigger an internal Part or it can be set to control an external device on any channel.

If you activate a Part 9-16, this is always a Single slot... meaning it behaves as a single entity... say you activate Part 9’s Slot, it can receive on Channel 9 (or not at all—your choice), it can Transmit Out on any single channel 1-16, as with any of the slots.

When you *select* it - whatever you have set for it to do will be what you are controlling. If the INT SW is On, the MONTAGE will play the internal sound assigned to slot 9... if the INT SW is Off, and the Transmit Channel is set, then the 9th slot will Transmit on the single channel you set, 1-16, only when it is the *selected* Part.

Whenever you wanted to play just the Kurzweil, you might set slot 9 to Transmit on Channel 16. If the INT SW is Off, only the data going Out via MIDI would be sounding the Kurzweil. And don’t fixate on 9-16, this goes for any Part slot where the KBD CTRL icon is inactive at the time.

Example, you activate three slots....
Part 1 is INT SW = On; TRANS CH = Off
Part 2 is INT SW = Off; TRANS CH = 15
Part 3 is INT SW = Off; TRAN CH = 16
... but you activate no KBD CTRL icons... in order for anything to sound, you would need to press a corresponding [PART SELECT] button. This would allow you to seamlessly switch between these three programs using the [PART SELECT] buttons.

So to answer your question... the Kurzweil and Roland will occupy five Part slots, your MONTAGE will occupy three Part slots... that’s your eight simultaneous Zones. Any total that adds up to eight. And you will be using MONTAGE Parts 1-8 to setup any Multi-Channel configuration. KBD CTRL is restricted to eight Parts, 1-8. (It is restricted to eight as the SSS feature has reserved eight Dual Insertion Effects for the target program).

If you do not need them to play all three Tone generators simultaneously, then you can designate any of the 16 Part slots to individually address any of your devices... the MONTAGE, the Kurzweil or the Roland.

BM provides a great general overview of what Montage can do. Here's another answer more directly addressing some of your specifics.

If I have two external synths (Kurzweil and Roland Integra Module) the Kurzweil on channel 16, the Integra on 12-15

Noted - 5 MIDI channels for Montage to control.

Your First Question

... can I play sounds from these on the Montage keybed using channels 12-16 on the montage without it effecting any sounds I have setup on Channels 1-8?

No, you cannot simultaneously send MIDI out 5 channels unless you use 5 PARTs within the lower 8 (PARTs 1-8). BM explained this.

Assertion/Correction (also see BM's overview)

I have a feeling 9-16 can only be used for external controllers to control but could be wrong.

PARTs 9-16 can be used in 2 ways. As RECEIVE (MIDI channels 9-16 for midi mode as multi-channel) - you can trigger the tone generator to play these PARTs. This matches your assertion. However, this is not the only thing you can do. You can transmit on any ONE of the channels (9-16) at a time. Including to send MIDI out to external gear. Because you cannot turn keyboard control ON for these PARTs - you cannot simultaneously send MIDI out using any combination of multiple PARTs 9-16. You can only select one at a time - and when any PART with Keyboard Control=OFF (as 9-16 are forced to), your physical keyboard is dedicated to controlling that single PART (and turns off for all other PARTs).

Note that one possibility is to insert a computer into the mix. If you have a DAW or other software connected to Montage, you can take a received MIDI channel and send it back to Montage's port 3 which targets external devices to cover your Kurzweil/Roland. I'm not aware if an iOS device can do this -- I haven't seen any way to tell iOS to transmit to different ports. Therefore, this may limit what setups are valid for this usage.

Your Second Question:

Also how is SSS effected by this?

Any time a PART is used under PARTs 9-16 (any single PART) - SSS is defeated. This is true for both Performances involved in a transition. The Performance you are transitioning from AND the Performance you are transitioning TO. Neither Performance can utilize PARTs from 9-16 for SSS to work.

Now - this is a personal opinion that can be equally valid the opposite way (for others with different goals/usage): The less your playing depends on SSS - the better (in my opinion). Certainly if using Montage as a MIDI slave - it doesn't make much sense to limit your incoming channels. Using Montage as a master - there could be some rationale - but I have found there are often ways to reduce an SSS transition to an in-the-same-Performance transition instead. Then transition to a 2nd Performance during a period of "playing" rests so lack of SSS does not present a problem.

Damn, my assumption was right, I really need to be able to use Channels 9-16 to control external synths via the keybed on the Montage without having to sacrifice local montage sounds on Channels 1-8.

Guess I stick with what I have and see if Yamaha does any updates that may offer this functionality.

Thanks for the honest answers.

Scott

Fixed formatting of previous response so it is easier to see my response vs. quoted material.

BTW: is there anything different you intend to send your external gear (outside of MIDI channel) that PARTs 1-8 cannot handle? In other words, sending to your external gear the same MIDI stream (in terms of note-on/off and CC for pitchbend, etc) that is sent on the first 8 PARTs which will simultaneously control the tone generator?

You may not want to add any extra gear - which is a different constraint. I just want to see if somehow the MIDI stream (outside of channel) on PARTs 1-8 would work if forwarded - or not.

This plays into suggestion to forward PARTs 1-8 to channels 9-16 through some other device.

What is constantly trampled on in this discussion is that if you are transmitting Out via MIDI with the purpose of controlling an external tone engine, you should be using the Zone Settings to define what each Part slot is set to do. The fact is any Part slot can Transmit Out via MIDI on any MIDI Channel ...this seems to get overlooked.

Part 9 will only transmit Out on MIDI Channel 9 if you have an INTERNAL Part assigned to that slot and the “Int Sw = On”. If you wish to use Part slot #9 to Transmit Out via MIDI, you should set the “Int Sw = Off”, then Set the “Transmit Ch” as you desire.

If you find yourself serendipitously transmitting on Channel 9 from Part slot 9, because you selected Part 9, please recognize this is because you are not using the Zone Master Function properly. And you may not understand how this works.

If you find your internal MONTAGE Parts triggering your external devices, it is because you did not use the Zone function to define what goes Out via MIDI.

Again, the purpose of transmitting Out data from MONTAGE is so the ‘captured’ data can be played back to MONTAGE and it all plays properly... if you are not recording (capturing), but instead are using the MONTAGE as a Master Keyboard, then you should define the role of each Part slot...
...turn the “Transmit Ch = Off” for each Part slot that want to play internally;
...and set the “Int Sw = Off” and select a “Transmit Ch” for each slot you want to send Out to control an external device.

If you are still thinking that Part 9 transmits on Channel 9, and Part 10 transmits on Channel 10, you may not “get” how this works, quite yet.
Part slot 9 transmits Out on the Channel that *you* set it to transmit Out.

It only transmits on channel 9 if you set it to do so or because you “forgot” to set the “Int Sw” Off. If the Internal Switch is On, like any keyboard, the data sent to the MIDI Out is designed, if captured, to faithfully playback that internal Part. If you are designating the Part slot 9 to an external tone engine, then you want a separate set of parameters to control it... set “Int Sw = Off”, and use the “Transmit Ch” parameter to pick a Channel.

You may actually “get” this, but each time I read something it sounds like there is confusion about the role of the Zone Master.
It is to be used any time you want to intelligently control what goes Out via MIDI. If you Don’t use it, you're on your own, running down the hallway, with scissors, in the dark... (well, not actually, but it is not recommended to use a Zone to trigger both Internal Parts and External Devices, simultaneously.

Nothing prevents you (so you may find a use for it). But the most efficient/effective way to use an eight Zone controller is to limit control to eight independent zones. (Certainly, this is the best way to gain an understanding of how it can work *for you*. Each internal Part is a Zone, each external Part is a Zone. You determine on the “Zone Settings” screen what each is going to be.

If you forget, remember: playing an eight Part MODX Performance is like playing eight Motif XFs. Each Performance Part slot can (effectively) control one Zone... which means it can select one Bank and Program, recall one Volume setting, recall one Pan position, occupy one region of Notes across the Keyboard, etc. think of your external synths as replacing one of those eight XFs.

Thanks again for the explanation, I agree I don't fully "get" it yet. I understand have 8 zones, they can be internal, external or possibly both. I'm guessing a work around in my situation may be to transmit on my external midi channels for parts 5-8, but also trigger internal sounds. Further to that guess I could filter out volume messages so my volumes stayed as I set them on external devices. Then theres the option of layering channels by sending from my Kurzweil on channels 9-16. Maybe I'm better to purchase a MODX first to see if I can get it to do what I need before jumping into a Montage for a second time.

Cheers
Scott

Didn't mean to imply MIDI out channels have any tie to the PARTs. I just wanted to head off any pushback on MIDI channel by taking that out of the equation. Because Montage can, as mentioned, transmit out any channel. As a MIDI master controller - the MIDI deck is about fully stacked.

Since tone-engine driven PARTs also send MIDI out - I'm not sure that the goal of using PARTs 1-8 for internal sounds and also use these to drive external equipment is out of the question.

I was wondering if anyone stubbled across any solutions, OR if anyone could recommend a 61 key controller that could handle the midi implementation of the MODX...

Hi, I have a Kurzweil PC361 that solves all of that and more if you can find one used. I would have hoped companies like Yamaha would look at Kurzweil’s midi implementation, and that Kurzweil would just make a controller. In the Kurzweil you have your “set lists” where you can organise your gigs, each of those can be a setup (like a performance) that can countain 16 programs (patches or element). The great thing about the setups is you can layer/split you keyboard in 16 part and assign the same or different midi channels to each, and for each setup you have a set of parameters like mod wheel min/max, etc. So you could layer 16 parts on the same keys to 16 channels each to its element in the Montage performance and when you turn the modwheel each channel would get their own velocity and limits, very powerfull ! Actually that’s the most flexible setup I ever saw. Im actually interested in the MODX for its light weight and the fact that it seem like the synth that comes closer to my Kurzweil, lighter and with a bigger screen 🙂
Also is you have an iPad there is the Camelot Pro app that would solve the problem as it can duplicate a midi channel on many live so the note played on 1 channel on the 88 keys controller could be duplicated on 4 channels to drive a 4 elements piano for example. I have not tried Camelot Pro yet but there is a demo of it with the Montage on Youtube where they exactly do that.

If I have two external synths (Kurzweil and Roland Integra Module) the Kurzweil on channel 16, the Integra on 12-15, can I play sounds from these on the Montage keybed using channels 12-16 on the montage without it effecting any sounds I have setup on Channels 1-8? I have a feeling 9-16 can only be used for external controllers to control but could be wrong. Also how is SSS effected by this? I'm currently running a Kronos but thinking of moving back to the montage for quicker startup and ease of setting up performances.

Here’s how to go about thinking about it... the MONTAGE can transmit discreetly on 8 channels simultaneously. It is an 8-Zone Master Keyboard Controller. (Think of the keys as a separate entity and you have three tone generators).

This means if you are playing the Kurzweil on Channel 16, and the Roland on Channels 12-15, you can simultaneously use three Part slots to control the internal MONTAGE. Simultaneously, is the key word. That’s a total of eight simultaneous KBD CTRL slots. That is the theoretical maximum.

The KBD CTRL icon (found available on the first eight Part slots of your MONTAGE) can be activated on the Part slots you are actively (simultaneously) controlling. Each would need to be on its own channel to maintain discreet control. Those slots controlling external devices can be any channel you desire. Any channel!

If you recall a three Part MONTAGE Performance, it will occupy Parts slot 1, 2, and 3
The Kurzweil would occupy Part slot 4, set to Zone Transmit Ch = 16
The Roland would occupy Part slots 5, 6, 7, and 8, set to Transmit on channels 12, 13, 14 and 15, respectively.

You can now split, layer, split/layer, any of these 8 sounds across your keyboard you can also map controllers to each Zone as you require. You can send Bank and Program messages Out to each device, you can send Volume and/or Pan messages, you can setup to control these in real-time using the MONTAGE Faders...
Think of each sound making device as a separate Zone. Any Part slot can Transmit externally on any MIDI channel to any external device.

If you setup a Multi-Part MONTAGE Performance with six Parts, 1-6, slot 7 could be the Kurzweil, slot 8 could be the Roland... total is 8. All could be played simultaneously.

With the Zone Master feature you determine what, if anything, is transmitted from the MONTAGE per slot (on a per Performance basis).
The MONTAGE can control eight Zone Slots, simultaneously.

A slot can be set to trigger an internal Part or it can be set to control an external device on any channel.

If you activate a Part 9-16, this is always a Single slot... meaning it behaves as a single entity... say you activate Part 9’s Slot, it can receive on Channel 9 (or not at all—your choice), it can Transmit Out on any single channel 1-16, as with any of the slots.

When you *select* it - whatever you have set for it to do will be what you are controlling. If the INT SW is On, the MONTAGE will play the internal sound assigned to slot 9... if the INT SW is Off, and the Transmit Channel is set, then the 9th slot will Transmit on the single channel you set, 1-16, only when it is the *selected* Part.

Whenever you wanted to play just the Kurzweil, you might set slot 9 to Transmit on Channel 16. If the INT SW is Off, only the data going Out via MIDI would be sounding the Kurzweil. And don’t fixate on 9-16, this goes for any Part slot where the KBD CTRL icon is inactive at the time.

Example, you activate three slots....
Part 1 is INT SW = On; TRANS CH = Off
Part 2 is INT SW = Off; TRANS CH = 15
Part 3 is INT SW = Off; TRAN CH = 16
... but you activate no KBD CTRL icons... in order for anything to sound, you would need to press a corresponding [PART SELECT] button. This would allow you to seamlessly switch between these three programs using the [PART SELECT] buttons.

So to answer your question... the Kurzweil and Roland will occupy five Part slots, your MONTAGE will occupy three Part slots... that’s your eight simultaneous Zones. Any total that adds up to eight. And you will be using MONTAGE Parts 1-8 to setup any Multi-Channel configuration. KBD CTRL is restricted to eight Parts, 1-8. (It is restricted to eight as the SSS feature has reserved eight Dual Insertion Effects for the target program).

If you do not need them to play all three Tone generators simultaneously, then you can designate any of the 16 Part slots to individually address any of your devices... the MONTAGE, the Kurzweil or the Roland.

Im sure you are doing a great job thrying to explain the setup (really) but I have 1 question to see if I understand. What I understand is that you have 8 transmit channels possibles if you create a performance with 8 parts, but you take 1 channel for each part that plays internally, so whatever is left is what is available for external devices, so if you need 3 parts for your sound you are left with 5 parts that can control 5 channels for external midi ... Am I right ? And the channels are harcoded so if the 3 parts for internal sound are 1, 2 and 5, you have channels 3,4,6, 7 and 8 available for the external device ?

Thank you for your patience ! Like a lot of things in life I figure it will look easy once understood, and wrong if you are used to something else 🙂

I think the iPad and the MODX will be a perfect pair with Camelot adding midi flexibility and DAWs like Mod Step adding sequencing for live use.

Internal vs. external is not mutually exclusive. PARTs that are triggering the internal sound generator will also send MIDI data out the MIDI port and therefore could, if you wanted, simultaneously target the internal sound generator and an external device.

The MIDI channel for transmit (FROM Montage TO an external device) is freely assignable. Not hard coded. This is what the Zone settings are all about. The "hard coded" feature applies to Montage's MIDI receive channels (FROM external devices TO Montage).

All of this applies equally to the MODX.

You have 8 PARTs (PARTs 1-8 only) that you can control with the local keyboard "piano" keys. If you want to dedicate each PART for either internal or external use - you can elect to do this. There are settings to prevent the tone generator from sounding even though keyboard control is turned ON (any PART 1-8). This would be one way to dedicate that particular PART to external use only. This is a choice, however, as mentioned earlier - you do not have to dedicate a PART to only external or only internal.

Certainly - if you have this kind of setup where you dedicate a PART for only internal or only external - then any PARTs 1-8 you dedicate to external use cannot be used for internal - because this is policy you elected.

PARTs 9-16 are still available for external control. For Montage the sacrifice is SSS. For MODX - the sacrifice comes earlier (PARTs 5-16) due to less horsepower of MODX by design (hence the cost savings). Sacrificing SSS should not be alarming as there are management techniques to deal with this.

Thanks Jason ! Lots clearer, and a lot less limiting than I got at first !

No problem Bob. As a master controller, Montage/MODX is fairly full featured. In this thread the complains are primarily against using Montage as a slave to an external master controller. This is where you run into the routing limitations. Since this isn't your use case - you should not see anything that places your keyboard at a disadvantage vs. using other MIDI keyboards (as master controllers hypothetically instead of Montage or MODX).

Hi there,
I share the problem with the thread creator (!)
I have two Korg D1s as 88 master keyboards in two rehearsal rooms.
So far (2015-2020) the Kronos was/is my "sound module" .I always play piano layers (piano + e-piano, piano + strings and other stuff) via the Korg D1 and transceive via Channel 2.
The rest of the sounds (Organ,Synth,SFX) plays via the 61 keys of the Kronos. (Ch1G).
I have also a MODX6, which is only used live if it is sufficient.
So then in the "great" single mode that is so praised here.
The fact is:
MODX / Montage cannot offer this (in my opinion) "professional" midi-solution (like the Kronos/Krome can do) in (2021/2022 !!!)