BM, re:

May I recommend using the “Symphonic” Insertion Effect Type (It is found among the Chorus Category). This rather unique Yamaha Chorus (from back in the SPX90 days) has the ability to remove all movement — you can actually set the LFO SPEED = 0.00Hz, you also have access to straight DELAY OFFSET (0.0ms~50.0ms. If you don’t want to “spend” a Part to duplicate the Tone, use “Symphonic” with Dry = Wet (D=W) this way you hear both the original FM-X and the delayed clone.

Pick a fixed “Delay Offset” (more than 30ms you’ll begin to hear two distinct events when you strike a key... you just want to thicken the sound, so stay below where the two sounds are separately distinguishable... less than 30ms. Then to maximize that ‘tubular’ type sound quality that Unison Poly was so popular for.... increment the LFO SPEED... one click from 0.00Hz to 0.04Hz is profound. It is the introduction of this very, very small movement that is the serious ear-candy... Experiment....
Set the LFO DEPTH to taste (0 Depth, means zero effect).

Additional followup questions on the “Symphonic” Insertion Effect:

Will using “Symphonic” used as you suggest, thicken the sound & emulate the DX7II's Unison Poly whereby it folded twice providing for 4 thicker notes, if I use just 1 PART on the Montage, or would using 1 PART only emulate a single fold Unison (2 thicker notes) and I need to use 2 adjacent PARTs, each with “Symphonic” set as you suggested, in order to emulate the DX7II's twice folded (4 thicker notes) ?

If two PARTs are required for this, should I have them both pitch changed +/- as well as using the “Symphonic” effect so that the original FM-X sound of each PART are thickened up as well? If yes, what pitch change +/- values would equate to the “Symphonic” effect's Delay Offset + LFO DEPTH setting, or is pitch changing the 2 PARTs something to either adjust by ear/to taste?

Last question: What if I use the “Symphonic” Insertion Effect in both Ins A & Ins B ... will this allow me to use & thicken just 1 PART to be equivalent to the DX7II's Unison Poly (twice folded - 4 thicker notes)? Or will it only be equivalent to (3 thicker notes, not 4)? Or will it do something entirely different that doesn't emulate the DX7II's Unison Poly, and I need to use 2 PARTs to achieve this?

Experiment... you have 8 Parts, I wouldn’t set limits when going after designing a sound. Neither would I use a Part unnecessarily. Just because there are eight Parts doesn’t mean you need to use that many. If I can (in my own mind) justify adding an additional Part, I do.

I know some folks start with the goal to use everything available — I don’t need that as a basic strategy (maybe you get over that approach after a while).

I have started with a goal to minimize use of resources, however... I find, if/when I do more with less, I can expand in other directions. For example, if I find something in a Factory sound I like, I use just that, anything that I’m not going to use I *delete* the assignment... this allows me to move in other directions with those resources.

Experiment... try anything that comes to mind. Set your own goals.
Unison Poly was a way to accomplish fatter sound... a very slight delay where you have, in effect, duplicated the original sound - is the result they were trying to accomplish. Unfortunately, back in the day there were no effect processors in synthesizers quite yet. So it cost them half the polyphony each time they folded the sound over on itself.

This is actually less expensive polyphony-wise and more controllable using a simple “delay”...
Phase, Flange, Chorus, Echo can be seen as different degrees of delay.

Two identical signals played together are only detectable by a slight increase in volume.
Two identical signals played together, but with a slight difference in phase (the smallest degree of change) your ear/brain is all over that, if you’re paying attention. It’s a feature of having two ears, it makes locating where a sound is originating, possible.

Phase is like one speaker of a stereo pair advancing at you the slightest bit ahead of the other speaker - both producing the same content. What you Experience when the 16 Note polyphony was folded over twice (4 note polyphony) was the very slightest of time delay between the duplicates.

What I’ve suggest above is how to accomplish that without trading polyphony to get the sonic result...

Trust me, necessity was the mother of the Unison Poly invention, it they had implemented the Symphonic Effect in a DX7IIFD that whole feature may not have found its way to the fore (pure speculation on my part) but understand what they were trying to accomplish can be done with effect processing applied appropriately. Enjoy!

The data list shows the Symphonic Chorus effect available as a Variation effect. So you could use this effect in variation which could be applied to all, some, or (bad usage) none of your PARTs. And in different amounts (change the Var sends). Just something to think about as you juggle effect resources.

What it does, and how it "folds" or however else you want to describe what you're after is easier to test on your keyboard than it is to type the request. Always muck around with the settings to try to get a feel then perhaps ask away if there's something that's not making sense after taking the effects for a test drive.

Many of the Insertion Effects Types are found repeated in the System Effects. Where you choose to place the Effect Type can make a huge difference as you move forward... arm yourself with the difference:

The reason (yes, there is a reason) I recommend applying the “Symphonic” as an Insertion Effect, in this use case, is because the Insertion Effects are apart of the instrument you are creating, while System Effects are not. Insertion Effects belong to the Part. The System Effects belong to the Performance Mixer.

You will appreciate this when you seek to use the sound you design in another Performance. When you “Merge” or “replace” a Part in a Performance your selection always brings along its Insertion Effect, but it never brings along the System Effects, Master FX, or Master EQ.

Just like the Part Control Assign functions travel wherever you move the Part, so will the Insertion Effects and any Controller assignments you made to interact with its parameters. Meanwhile, the System Effects, get stripped off along with other upper Common assignments.

And significantly, when routing the Part to an assignable USB Audio Output, a Part goes to the Output including the assigned Dual Insertion Effects. The System Effects (Reverb, Variation), however, are stripped off.

Think of the Insertion Effects as this instrument’s personal Effects. It is intricately woven into the architecture of the Part (instrument). You route to it at the Oscillator Level of the architecture. You can assign real-time Control over its parameters.
The System Effects (Reverb, Variation) are External to Instrument you’ve built in the Part.

While the “Symphonic” Type is available via the Mixer “Var Send”, you’ll notice the difference in how you access it, how it travels (or doesn’t travel) when you want to record or use your creation elsewhere. As long as you are aware of these significant differences you can proceed as you desire. Also: You do not get a Dry/Wet Balance when applying the “Symphonic” as a Variation Effect. Access to System Effects are via a Send/Return scenario (like an Aux Send system found on a mixing console).

By using the “Symphonic” Type as an Insertion (all signal goes through the processor) we are using it more as a utility in constructing the sound, than we are just applying it as you would a Chorus ‘effect’, (to taste).

Yes, realizing system effects get stripped out of USB channels 1-30 and stripped out of Assign L&R outputs and system effects can "conflict" if you merge Performances (there can be only one set of system effects so one or the other Performance wins) - still - if, for whatever reason, you need more of the effect - you have another slot available apart from insertion effects. Presumably this would be fine today and offer no caveats if you are making a custom user Performance that you plan to output to Main L&R outputs. I understand the merge issue for another day and wanting to avoid that if possible - but you may feel like that compromise is necessary for whatever reason and use system effects.

I need to generate the following ratios below 1.00:

0.40, 0.66, 0.85

So far, all I can see is a way to generate 0.50 by setting the Coarse value in Freq Mode to 0.

Is there a way to generate the ratios I need?

—————

I may have just found a way: I can use Note Shift in the Part to shift down an octave.

Is there a better way?

Michael,

I commened in the other thread you mentioned this, but I'll repeat here for continuity...

Another way to do it without any of the transposing hassles is set the modulator to Fixed Freq mode, tune to approximately 87 Hz (you'll need to adjust the detune a bit) then set the Pitch Key tracking to 99. This way you don't have to rememeber the sound is transposed when setting all your other key scaling, breakpoints etc.

Depending on the exact "ratio" you need is you multiply middle C pitch of approximately 261 Hz by the 'sub ratio' factor. In this case 261 x 1/3 = 87. If you wanted a ratio of 1/4, it would be 261 x 1/4 = 75.5. a ratio of 1/5 would be 261x 1/5 = 52.2 Hz. You use middle C as the reference as FM-X uses that note as the 'center' pitch when setting the Pitch Key Scaling in Fixed Freq mode. Again, you always will need to tweak the detune to get the tuning exact given the resolution of the Freq Fine parameter

Many of the Insertion Effects Types are found repeated in the System Effects. Where you choose to place the Effect Type can make a huge difference as you move forward... arm yourself with the difference:

The reason (yes, there is a reason) I recommend applying the “Symphonic” as an Insertion Effect, in this use case, is because the Insertion Effects are apart of the instrument you are creating, while System Effects are not. Insertion Effects belong to the Part. The System Effects belong to the Performance Mixer.

You will appreciate this when you seek to use the sound you design in another Performance. When you “Merge” or “replace” a Part in a Performance your selection always brings along its Insertion Effect, but it never brings along the System Effects, Master FX, or Master EQ.

By using the “Symphonic” Type as an Insertion (all signal goes through the processor) we are using it more as a utility in constructing the sound, than we are just applying it as you would a Chorus ‘effect’, (to taste).

Just got back from vacation and had a chance yesterday evening to try “Symphonic” as an Insertion Effect.

WOW!!

It is nearly identical to Unison on my DX7II for 'Orchestral Strings' with Unison Poly set to 5...!
(Note that I have the DX7II plugged into the Montage AD Input for direct real time comparison...)

Using just 1 PART on the Montage with "Symphonic" as InsA and tweaking the settings to the following, it is closer to Unison than using the two "Pitch Change" Insert effects, removing 'most' of the wave sound, but with the added bonus of stereoization of the sound:

Dry/Wet Balance (D=W)
LFO SPEED = ~38Hz (...serious ear-candy as you mentioned above!)
LFO Depth = 42
DELAY OFFSET = ~29 (less than 30)

However, using 2 PARTs, panned L29/R29 and with the following settings below, I was able to get even better stereo separation and a closer Unison-like sound (nearly perfect), getting rid of the wave sound completely that the "Pitch Change" Insert effects could not. I also detuned the 2 PARTs +/- 1.3 :

Dry/Wet Balance (D=W)
LFO SPEED = ~38Hz (...serious ear-candy as you mentioned above!)
LFO Depth = 39
DELAY OFFSET = ~29 (less than 30)

________________

Next, I went back to the 'Voice strings' sound that I had first tried the 2 "Pitch Change" Insert effects on and oddly enough it was 'not' better/closer to the DX7II Unison Poly when using the “Symphonic” insertion effect instead, set similarly to above, even when using 2 PARTs! The "Pitch Change" Insert effects was still a bit closer to that sound on the DX7II using Unison Poly set to 5. Possibly because this sound doesn't have a pronounced wave in it like the 'Orch Strings' did..!?

I then tried setting InsA with the “Symphonic” insertion effect and InsB with the "Pitch Change" insert effect, and that worked better. I'll have to compare again to be certain, but it sounded slightly better/closer this way than using "Pitch Change" on both Insert effects. This is comparing 2 PARTs panned as per above for stereo separation.

Manny,

I don’t understand how to adjust the detune. I didn’t hear any difference in the sound through the full range of detune adjustment of the modulator. Do I just need to listen more carefully, or is there some other way to tell how to make that adjustment?

You should probably start with "detune" on the carrier to get a feel for how much difference there is to the output pitch of detune vs. fine.

For the modulator, you should turn the level all the way up so you can cram the most amplitude into the carrier. I'm assuming your modulator is going straight into the carrier and not removed by several other modulators.

Also, set the modulator AEG so it doesn't die off right away. Keep it going "forever" in terms of AEG (the "level" tab in FM-X). This is the general area of the interface: https://www.yamahasynth.com/modx-category/manny-s-fm-xpert-4-the-envelope-s-please

You can just cram all levels to 99 (on the modulator) so you can really hear what that detune parameter is doing. AEG may be masking the modulator if AEG is set to quickly squelch your modulator level.

Since I didn't have my keyboard in the studio - I just went online and setup a 2 operator stack:

https://www.webaudiomodules.org/wamsynths/dexed

Alg 5, level for for ops 1 & 2 all the way up. All other ops all the way down. Ops 1&2 ratio freq. mode. Left op 1's EG as default (some kind of "slow" decay). Cranked all the levels of op 2's EG up so it "never" decays and always is max level. Freq setting for both Op 1&2 coarse at 1, fine at 0, detune at -7 for both (was just easy to turn the knob all the way down). Running through all detune values of op 2 (modulator) - I could hear a difference. Detune -7 for modulator - no "beats". Detune at 0 - slow "beats" ("vibrato" ). Detune at +7 - fast beats.

Same settings - but change op2 to coarse of 9. Difference between -7 and +7 detune on modulator could be heard clearly when playing highest note. -7 was more "dull" and +7 was more "brilliant".

Initially, I noticed the wave shape was set to a triangle type wave (not FM-X-ish enough). I changed it to sine and general observations didn't change.

Maybe doing something similar in FM-X would show the same thing.

Jason,

As Michael corectly mentions, you need to make sure your modulator's envelope hasn't decayed to low / to zero, so is best to set set the freq. fine and detune settings with hight Modulation l output and the envelopes wide open.

Think you got the "Michael" and "Jason" switched.

... strike that.... reverse it ... 🙂

Hello Manny,
What an interesting project you have here and very well done indeed! Since i have a FS1R synth and some software dx7 emulators is it possible to transcribe the piano patch for those synthesizers??
If the montage patch could be read somehow to find out al the parameters then i could do it myself...If not possible it would also be usable to print out all the operators screens. You already did about half of them...
Many thanks for your thoughts on this!
Greetings from Holland
Hans van den Tillaart

Hans,

The FS1r would be the best place to start as it has the necessary Operator Fixed Frequency mode, as well as essentially the same FIlter types as FM-X. Unfortunately, you'd need 8 of them to recreate with any usable polyphony...