Andrew,

You can create a backup file, which will contain all of your Patterns. Then you can initialize your Montage, and start over. Quick and easy, except for the long time it takes to write a backup file to a flash drive.

Learning to operate something as complex as the Montage takes a lot of mental effort, which you are wasting instead on insulting people who are trying to help you, while also setting a poor example for your daughter.

Andrew,

You can create a backup file, which will contain all of your Patterns. Then you can initialize your Montage, and start over. Quick and easy, except for the long time it takes to write a backup file to a flash drive.

Learning to operate something as complex as the Montage takes a lot of mental effort, which you are wasting instead on insulting people who are trying to help you, while also setting a poor example for your daughter.

Have you not read the thread?

I was the first to suggest this approach, and one of the reasons it's far less than ideal.

I was also the one to suggest it might be possible to extract the patterns from this backup file, and an initial way to reveal where they might be within the backup file.

@Jason, yes. All of that, and obviously it's only possible to work with what is, that's obviously the case, too.

However, let's not kid ourselves, this is less than an ideal for something as wonderful as the Pattern Sequencer (for those that enjoy it), and an oversight on Yamaha's part, at least.

I didn't go into this thinking that it wouldn't be possible to offload all Patterns at once, or that they'd lose any and all reference to their "LINKED" Performance by being offloaded. Those two things are very peculiar limitations that aren't easily worked around, as all means of offloading all Patterns have big limitations and/or are laborious.

@Andrew , there's a new post on the other forum that I linked before, I specifically asked about patterns:
https://www.yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=101951#p101951

To answer the question about patterns and songs, they are only saved in X7A files, not X7U or X7L files.

My first release will not not support X7A (you have have to start somewhere) but later releases will. Having said that, I have done some advance testing to understand the structures of Songs and Patterns so am already most of the way there.

@Dragos

THANK YOU!!!

Wonderful.

I hope soon. In the meantime, I will spend a few hours doing drag and drop, one by bloody one, and create a corresponding list of Performances, and be the "automatic file system" for my daughter.

Again, thank you, @Dragos!!!

@Andrew , there's a new post on the other forum that I linked before, I specifically asked about patterns:
https://www.yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=101951#p101951

To answer the question about patterns and songs, they are only saved in X7A files, not X7U or X7L files.

My first release will not not support X7A (you have have to start somewhere) but later releases will. Having said that, I have done some advance testing to understand the structures of Songs and Patterns so am already most of the way there.

@Bad Mister / @Jason
Hey, just wondering if this is true regarding 'Songs' only being saved in X7A files but not in X7U or X7L..? (Note, I haven't fully followed this thread because I don't use Patterns, as I am fully DAW integrated)

My use case is strictly with Live Set, whereby I use Slot Type 'Song', saving a specific Song with a specific Performance, so that when playing Live, I can hit Play to start the Song sequencing for a particular Performance.

If I were to Save my User memory to a X7U User File (#1), then wipe out User memory by Loading a different X7U User File (#2), in order to check out the Performances, etc., and then once finished, I Load the previously saved X7U User File (#1) back into User memory, would all my Live Set "Song + Performance" no longer be linked or work properly?

Or as another example, let's say I wanted to create a new Library, so I backed up the User memory to a X7U User File (#1), then went to UTILITY > Data Utility, and deleted many of the Performances, Songs, Waveforms, Arps that I didn't want in my Library ... then I save the User memory area as a X7L Library File. Next I Load the previously saved X7U User File (#1) back into User memory, would all my Live Set "Song + Performance" no longer be linked or work properly in this scenario, or would all the Performances, Songs, Waveforms, Arps be added back and all my Live Set "Song + Performance" would still be linked & work properly?

Hey, just wondering if this is true regarding 'Songs' only being saved in X7A files but not in X7U or X7L..?

Sounds right. Historically if you wanted just the MIDI data cataloged all together there was a separate file for that. X?G files for user arpeggios. X?S for songs. X?P for patterns. Or al "All" file for everything (almost - there were still options to opt out of some data even in an All file - to save load/save time or other reasons).

There's no song or pattern or arpeggio only cataloging. It's either one-by-one or All.

But to really answer your question - without the kind of depth of knowledge BM has for the product - I consult the manual. I know there's a picture in the reference manual that answers this. It shows what gets saved when and how memory is utilized. This is a Montage thread, so I'll look at the Montage manual. The answer would be the same for MODX except for the file extension number in the middle (8 for MODX vs 7 for Montage).

Page 22:
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/9/812529/montage_en_rm_a0.pdf

No, take that back. Maybe the supplemental manual has an update for this drawing. Maybe not. X7A was added after the first printing of the reference manual and the reference manual hasn't been updated. The MODX reference manual has been updated and is useful enough as a reference for Montage 99% of the time. BTW: that is what I actually reference most of the time even for Montage because it's more up-to-date by nature of when MODX was released.

Page 23:
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/1192582/modx_en_rm_a0.pdf

You can see from the picture that "User Memory" has lots of lines going to/from a USB flash drive. This tells you exactly what is saved when.

You see 3 major areas:

For User
Performances, Arpeggios, Motion Sequences, Curves, Live Set, Waveforms, Utility, Quick Setup (Templates), and Audition Phrases

For Library
(it doesn't show it - but it has all the same stuff as the user area except not utility and other "globals" )

Song
This is where song files go

-----

Now - look at that song box. It's inside "User Memory" which includes everything: "For User", "For Library" AND "Song". The only lines that save the "Song" area are EITHER "User Memory" which has a line to "File Extension .X8A" on the USB flash drive OR "File extensions .MID" - meaning you can individually save a MID file to the flash drive. Not a catalog of a bunch of songs.

There are no lines from "Song" under "User Memory" to the Library or User (X8L, X8U) files on a flash drive.

Sorry for the long ride (I just leave it here to show how I look things up) - but the answer is "Yes, songs are saved in X7A and NOT X7U or X7L". And adding -- or .MID. But that's not songS. That's just song (singular).

Hey, just wondering if this is true regarding 'Songs' only being saved in X7A files but not in X7U or X7L..?

Songs are stored immediately and automatically to internal memory. You can at any time see which SONGS are in your internal memory:
Press [UTILITY] > “Contents” > “Data Utility” > tap the Folder named “Song”.

If you wish keep a copy of your MONTAGE Song, you can additionally SAVE it as a .mid file to a USB stick or you can use MONTAGE CONNECT to drag and drop a copy from the Song folder to your computer (as a universally readable Type 0 .mid file). You can drop it on your desktop, into your own filing system on your computer, or directly into any DAW software by simply using the USB connection.*
*if you set Cubase to Import MIDI Files to MIDI Tracks, you just need to drop the icon on a MIDI track set to communicate with your MONTAGE. Viola.

Again: important MONTAGE terminology
STORE = to Internal Memory
SAVE = make a file for an external storage device

If and when you load a different User File, (User Files do not include any sequencer data; neither Songs, nor Patterns), you will not be disturbing your Sequence data, it remains.
Songs and Patterns are immediately and automatically Stored in their respective internal memory Folders — without you having to make a File. And the data remains in memory.

If I were to Save my User memory to a X7U User File (#1), then wipe out User memory by Loading a different X7U User File (#2), in order to check out the Performances, etc., and then once finished, I Load the previously saved X7U User File (#1) back into User memory, would all my Live Set "Song + Performance" no longer be linked or work properly?

Since the link between Song and Performance is governed by Performance location (Bank/Program numbers) and Song Number (001-128), returning your User Bank will re-establish the association between your sequence data (Song/Pattern) and your Performance data (the band).

The repertoire remains in the Song and Pattern folder. It is possible to load in a whole new set of 640 Performances, leaving the Sequence data in memory. The second User File might point to other Songs and Patterns. Your first file may have 30 Song titles, 01-30; your second User file might have links and a Live Set that accesses Song titles 31-60, and so on.

The Dark Side: “Not Found”
It is possible (until you are clear on how this works) to have your Live Set slot read “Not Found” — this occurs when you have replaced or removed the Performance that the link is looking for. Simply loading a new User File doesn’t break the links necessarily, it does, in fact, load in a whole new “Live Set” which can have its own links to Performances…

An interesting section to study in the Reference Manual is where it describes “Contents” pages 174-177:
_what is Loaded from your Files…
_what is Saved into your File…
_what are the Data Utility folders

you will see that the Song and Pattern data are not included in the User File. The Library File is the same as a User File (with the exception of the Utility Settings and Quick Setup functions which are saved/restored with the User File). Songs and Patterns (Sequencer) are separate from the synthesizer Tone Generator data.

If you have a User File that has links between your Performances and Song data, reLoading the User File restores the links between the band and its repertoire. The LIVE SET uses either a link to a Performance, or a link to a Sequence… the difference is if you link the LIVE SET slot to the Sequence, then the Sequence can recall the Performance for you.

It’s the Sequencer that recalls the Performance
Not the other way ‘round. The way you know this to be true is because this is always the case… a Program Change is the MIDI command that is placed in with the sequence data to recall the instruments (it’s been this way since the dawn of MIDI back in 1983). And it is so here, as well.

Any Performance, not just User Performances can be linked with scores of sequences… say your doing a solo piano gig, you create a Jazz Trio Performance with your Acoustic Piano sound for “live” play, and an Acoustic Bass and Drum Kit under Sequencer control… You can have 128 Song titles linked with your “band”, Performance.

The other way round is unnecessary and kooky… you don’t need 128 (jazz trio) Performances. One band, 128 Songs. You would only need a different Performance if your going to swap out the ‘drummer’ and/or ‘bass player’.

Each Library has LIVE SETs
— if you create a User File that includes a Live Set with links to recall your Song, if you then SAVE your User Bank as a Library File, and then install that Library to one of the 8 ROM locations, your Songs will find their Performance in the semi-permanent ROM Library area. You can and will have installed your LIVE SET into one of eight Library LIVE SETs.
This means your Performances are always there
This means your Sequences cam always know where to find them

Rule: Data in the Sequencer is immediately and automatically STORED in internal memory.
Rule: Data in the Song/Pattern Folders remains until you either directly DELETE them or initialize All Data (or load a BACKUP File that doesn’t include them or loads a completely different set).
Rule: Links between Performances, Sequences and Live Sets are updated when the User Bank is *saved as* a Library File and that Library is installed to Flash ROM.
Rule: External file storage is Sequences is the same as any DAW — You create them one at a time, You SAVE them one at a time. You would never setup and record a composition in your DAW without SAVING a file… do the same with MONTAGE (If external storage is what you desire).

As you begin to realize your data is safely housed in internal memory, you begin to become neater about what is in that memory.
Good Habit: NAME your Songs and Patterns the moment they are worthy of keeping. If they are failed experiments or false starts, learn how to go to the Data Utility Folder and DELETE these incomplete entries.
Trust me, six weeks from now, the entry “New Song 035” unlinked, is now just taking up space, using memory…

Extra Credit:
Song data can be *installed* to a ROM Library (making it always available with the Library data) by converting your SONG Folder to AUDITION PHRASES - this conversion makes the Song data available via the [AUDITION] function (instead of the Sequencer). To playback the installed data, you recall the Performance, then press [AUDITION] instead of the normal Transport buttons. The data will playback just as any of the Factory Performances do when you play an Audition Phrase.

Please note the following limitations to this method:
_ playback only (Audition should be set to play once to avoid replay)
_ Program Changes not supported
_ there is a pause before measure 001 is executed (Songs and Patterns start immediately upon pressing the Transport Play button, Audition Phrases start after a brief pause when the [AUDITION] button is used).

Bad Mister Tip: Because of the limitations you may want to utilize this for *special occasion* music… that is, music you might want to use as background to announcements, to play-in and out of sets, etc.
Example: if you have to lead the audience in “Happy Birthday” - you might keep an arrangement of this as an Audition Phrase - this way you just recall the Performance and tap [AUDITION] you can now stand and move around leading the singing as your synth does the backing…
Playing back Audio files from a USB stick is similar and another way to keep some music playback available.

Thanks for the explanations @Jason & @Bad Mister !!

@Bad Mister
I think there is a use case for changing how Songs are SAVEd, so that maybe in a future OS update, Songs that are STOREd to internal Memory & Linked to Performances via Live Set, could be SAVEd to the X7U file. Would this be something worth me adding to Ideascale, or would this type of change be too much of a program change to make it even worth considering?

Note that this could also help ensure that Auditions (Songs) that are Stored in a Performance remain intact (in addition to the Live Set Song + Performance linking), in the event that the User Area gets Saved to USB (X7U), then Songs, Arps, Waveforms & other parts of User memory are Deleted, and then the Saved X7U file is Loaded back into User Memory ... thus loading back the Songs exactly where they were before in the Song section of User Memory ..!?

I try to deal with *what you can do now* in the products — this is most useful for folks who own the instrument.

IdeaScale is for users to post their ideas, good, bad, improbable or possible.

What you can do now, if you want to keep your Song data together with your Performance when you SAVE a User File, is outlined in my post above under “Extra Credit”. Convert you Song Folder to Audition Phrases, this places the SONG data in with the Performances. When you Save your .X7U each Performance will contain its associated data via the Audition Phrase (System Settings).

You have a method to add New Performances to your User Bank. I find when talking with MONTAGE owner’s that many of them SAVE User Files way too often — and while there’s absolutely nothing wrong with saving often but they wind up with only a handful, 10 or 20 Performances in the User Bank… instead of extending their one special User Bank to fill all Performance 640 positions. So they wind up with dozens of .X7U Files. This is where the request comes from (the way they have chosen to deal with the data they generate).

A better more efficient method might be to work on one (yes, one) special User Bank… to which you add your ‘keeper’ data, when ready.

I have lots of .X7U Files (like most users) but I have one special User Bank to which I add Performances to — it contains all the Performance I use when performing and/or demonstrating the MONTAGE. When I finish working on a composition, the Song data is already (automatically) in the Song Folder, I reload my special User Bank and I add the Performance that goes with the new composition to this special Bank.

Cool hidden feature: ever notice when you load a USER File, all data in the current User Bank is overwritten, EXCEPT the last item in the Edit Buffer! When I restore my special Bank, first thing I do is add that Performance in the Edit Buffer to my Bank, by pressing [STORE].

_ How are you currently assembling your data?
For example, how many Performances typically are in your User Bank… the MONTAGE keeps count… [UTILITY] > “Contents” > “Data Utility” > open the Performance Folder — it will show the count in the upper right corner xxx/640, where xxx is the number of Performances currently loaded.

When working on a music composition, DAW users already know this, you should SAVE your work at the end of the days work. You wouldn’t think of working hours on a DAW project and NOT saving before you close down. It is highly recommended to avoid catastrophes by creating a .mid file for each Song. And if you work in Pattern, create a Chain, convert to Song, and Save as .mid file… or drag n drop your work, as a .mid file, to your computer using the MONTAGE CONNECT software.

You have 128 Song locations for all of MONTAGE. (Internal Memory)
You have 128 Pattern locations w/8 Scenes (Internal Memory)
You have 640 Performances in a User Bank
You have 2,048 Live Set slots in a User Bank
Be sure to include how that works…. Not here, necessarily, but on IdeaScale…

I try to deal with *what you can do now* in the products — this is most useful for folks who own the products.
IdeaScale is for users to post their ideas, good, bad, improbable or possible.
What you can do now, if you want to keep you Song data together with your Performance when SAVE a User File, is outlined in my post above under “Extra Credit”. Convert you Song Folder to Audition Phrases, this places the SONG data in with the Performances. When you Save your .X7U each Performance will contain its associated data.
A huge request from Motif XS/XF owner’s was to have the Songs and Patterns remain in memory… which is now the case.
Be sure to include how that works…. Not here, on IdeaScale…

Thanks BM! It's nice to have that option to Convert Song Folder to Audition Phrases.

I started out using only Auditions within a Performance for initiating sequencing when playing live (Note that 'all' of my Performances 'Songs' I play have full sequencing (DAW recorded/edited) stored within the Performances). However the only issue I had with using Auditions was that for a few songs (tunes), I had to press the Audition button 'X' number of measures into a song (instead of right away), and there is a slight delay in when the Audition starts to play, so it was a bit tricky to get the timing right & hit the Audition button early, just the right amount of time before it needed to start.
Since Yamaha added saving Song + Performance in 'Live Set' in an OS update, now when pressing the Play button instead of Audition, there is no delay and it works better overall! Plus it's actually better that the Play button is more central on the keyboard, where as the Audition button is to the far top right (especially on my Montage8), because with the few songs that I had to press the Audition button 'X' number of measures into a song, it just so happened that at that point in the song, I was playing something with my right hand, so I had to use my left hand to press the Audition button...a bit of a stretch. Using the Play button, it's easier to get to the button with my left hand, plus it starts without a delay, so I can press it right on beat/timing with the start of that next measure.

I don't mind keeping track of the Songs that are linked to Performances in 'Live Set', and re-linking them if necessary in the event that I wipe out all the Songs (for various reasons/side projects/specialized library creation from User memory) & need to add them back, and I am quite happy with "what I can do now'. At the same time, it never hurts to throw an idea up on IdeaScale in hopes of a future bonus from an potential OS update, so I will add this one. 😉

"Save/Include SONGs Stored in User Memory when Saving a User File"
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Save-Include-SONGs-Stored-in-User-Memory-when-Saving-a-User-File/278980-45978

I've already made great use of a few ideas that I had added to IdeaScale that Yamaha actually provided in OS updates, such as "Add [KBD CTRL] to SCENE Mixing", "Improve Smoothness (stepping) issue with Pitch Bend", and "Save & Recall the SONG that's loaded when a Performance is Saved". Even ideas that I submitted, but haven't been added in an OS update, you guys on this forum have been awesome to provide alternative solutions that do the same thing ... the example I can think of is with my Ideascale idea "Montage-MODX UNISON Layering Functionality", whereby I wanted FM-X single PARTs to have the 'Unison' functionality that is on my DX7II-FD. You suggested adding the 'Symphonic' insert effect and Jason suggested trying things like adding the 'Pitch Change' insert effect (which I have added to both Ins A & B with varying Fine tuning, Delays & Feedback in a few PARTs). I have been using both of those suggestions in many PARTs and both provide the 'Unison' functionality I was hoping for, so that I can use just 1 single PART instead of 4 PARTs to achieve the same result/sound.

That’s great! Many of those ideas were in the planning from before product release…It is a matter of timing and prioritizing when things get added to firmware.
The nice thing about users participating in IdeaScale is it verifies for the engineers what (some) people are doing. But it also points out just how much is already available in the product, just unused/undiscovered by long time owners. I could give a list but…

What is most disheartening on our end, is I run into far, far, (far) too many MONTAGE owners who are running on firmware 1.10, 1.20 or 1.50, they have never updated, either because they don’t know updates are available or they have convinced themselves that everything is working and if it ain’t broke, why fix it. Most are just totally unaware. Some have issues with downloading, unzipping, USB sticks, etc., etc.

It’s a never ending battle…

What is most disheartening on our end, is I run into far, far, (far) too many MONTAGE owners who are running on firmware 1.10, 1.20 or 1.50, they have never updated, either because they don’t know updates are available or they have convinced themselves that everything is working and if it ain’t broke, why fix it. Most are just totally unaware. Some have issues with downloading, unzipping, USB sticks, etc., etc.

It’s a never ending battle…

Yeah IdeaScale is a great platform to utilize!

That's unfortunate about the battle with firmware updates. Here I thought I was being bad, because I'm only on 3.50 and I am planning to upgrade to 3.51 soon :p