david wrote:

I did see several Montage 8s in the ebay sales history go for $2,275 and $2,575 something! That is seriously devaluing what I paid some $1,400 more for. I guess anyone can go nuts and just give them away but dang did someone get a stupid deal. Speaking to the quality of the M8's fit & finish and controls it is unparalleled. Yamaha makes quality gear and doesn't usually cut any corners to save a few cents here and there.

I practically live on eBay and I never saw those prices.
it might have been an auction, even a one day only auction that didn't have enough time to attract bidders, and not Buy it now, btw, those things can happen! I needed quick cash when I sold my Kronos 2 88, which I sold for 2000 quid sharp.

another point - I see the Kronos 88 as a Buy it now auction at 2500$ now on eBay. what does this mean?

it doesn't matter when an instrument was released, both are flagship products. and IMHO, based on my own experience, Montage is the (much) better one.

These of course are not new but here are (2) that I found. The $2,275 was free shipping which runs about $200 on this over-sized monster. I cried knowing what could have been. Had I bid on these units the price would have sky rocketed. I wonder if the seller actually followed through with the transaction because he didn't have to.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Montage-8-Synthesizer-MINT-CONDITION-/332050547927?hash=item4d4fc144d7:g:rO0AAOSwImRYQO5e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Montage8-Synthesizer-Workstation-/222400586813?hash=item33c81ba43d:g:npEAAOSw241Yl-zA

I told my friend about these deals. He said he had an attorney friend that would sell his new gear for 50% what he paid as a rule of thumb. Must be nice to check it out and then dump it for a 50% loss. I'd like to have his number.

Hi,

I would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. I got the Montage to reduce my setup from a Nord Piano 2, a Roland Integra 7 and a MOXF (all coupled with a MIDI control computer I built myself) to just one keyboard. For portability and simplicity. I compared the Montage to Nord Stage 2ex, and Korg Chronos for a long time.

The Montage easily won over the other machines. I am playing mostly live, so I am not interested in sampling capabilities or the sequencer. Also, I can do those things with the computer when I need them. I use Cubase for sequencing and I am using the John Melas Motif waveform editor for adapting samples to the Montage (for those who are wondering: it works fine for the Montage). What is important for me is the sound, and the ease of use in live situations. And for me the Montage shines in those two categories. It can give me all the sounds I need. Great pianos, bass, strings, brass, synth sounds, warm pads. Drum computer through arpeggios. The hardware is very nice, and the usability is great. I absolutely love the led strips besides the slider and knobs. That way I always know where they are. I like the super knob (which I control with a pedal). I think it is really easy to edit sounds. The touch screen really helps a lot. Much better than the MOXF or the Integra (and yes, I do have the editors for both, did not like them much, Montage is easier).

What I like about the Montage is the new system of the performances. I compare to the MOXF and I think the Motifs were similar to the MOXF. In the MOXF you had the performances (or whatever they were called) and the sounds (voices?). Whenever I created a performance from combining several great sounding sounds some of them lost their effects. Really annyoing, I hated that. In contrast the Montage has enough CPU power to keep 2 effects per element. And add an EQ per element. And then 3 effects + EQ per performance. That's really great. So creating performances is really a strong point for the Montage. And using them with the Live sets, the scenes and the various sliders and knobs is really great for live. Being able to combine 8 elements to create complex layers and splits is really great. If I would use my little MIDI controller again I could also go to 16 elements played from the keyboard. But that would complicate things and there was never a need for that until now.

I also like the amount of program storage on the Montage. No matter how many sounds I program I will for sure never fill them all (users + libraries). I also do like the system how the sound and performances are organized. Very logical and easy to use. For me anyway, I know that others are struggling. But for me that's much better than for example the system on the Integra or MOXF - not talking about the amount of storage on the Integra. 64 performances :-(. One pain point of the Montage's storage system is that there is no easy way to import all samples which are used in user performances from some library. So that I can throw out the rest of the library. That should be easy to implement (I know what I am talking about). So I hope it will come. I was very pleased by the 1.50 update, but still I have a list of features I would like to see...

As I wrote I can produce pretty much all sounds I need in the quality I need. So no need for further sounds engines. Although it would of course not hurt :-). And I do like the FM engine. My first synth was a DX-11 many years ago. I liked it and did a lot of programming but the programming was difficult. In the Montage it is pretty easy compared to that thanks to the sliders, and the touch screen. Some people say it is basically the same engine as the DX-7. While it is not really (it has some extensions) what people have to keep in mind is that it is the extended FM engine plus there are all the effects, the filters, and so on. That does a lot to the sound. Looking at the architecture, the FM part could be seen similar to the oscillator part of an analog synthesizer. Basically it can produce an infinite number of very complex waveforms which can change dynamically and over time. Or based on the controls. On top of that there is pretty much all the possibilities those classic analog synths have. So I think the possibilities of the FM synth are really huge.

A nice point is also that it is possible to use libraries from the Motif and now also the MOXF. Many of the libraries from Easy Sounds are just great and extend the usefulness a lot for me. And I could reuse them thanks to the 1.50 update.

As I wrote, I compared to the Kronos. I really did not like it. It is (for my taste) much more difficult to use. I do not like the feel of the machine, for example the sliders. And I was also not thrilled by the sound, think the Montage sounds better. But it is for sure a great machine, just not for me.

For the Nord, I found it too limited for what I needed, although it certainly has very good quality and sound. And it is probably also easy to use. But it does not have the depth and versatility of the Montage. I would not use it as the one instrument like the Montage. But that's all subjective.

I cannot judge the commercial success of the Montage. However I think and hope that it is successful and still on the rising. The Kronos and Motif rose over 15 or so years. The Montage still has some time left compared to that :-). As written above I still have a huge list of improvements I would like to see. I hope that they will come over time. The 1.50 OS was very encouraging, I could scratch out a couple of things I wanted from my list. But even if there had never been and would never be an update above 1.10 (the first OS version I used) I would still buy the Montage.

@ Eyal, concerning the Flash memory of Montage...

If the analysis by http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ is correct, it consists of four Spansion (Cypress) S34ML08G101TFI000 8Gbit devices. If you do a quick search on the internet you'll find it costs less than 8 USD per device in large quantities, so we are talking about something like USD 30 - 35 for the 4GBytes.

So while that might indeed be more than the cost for an average SSD drive (it is high quality SLC flash, 100.000 program / erase cycles), asking for more than 4 GBytes is not over the top, or what do you think?

Falk wrote:

@ Eyal, concerning the Flash memory of Montage...

If the analysis by http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ is correct, it consists of four Spansion (Cypress) S34ML08G101TFI000 8Gbit devices. If you do a quick search on the internet you'll find it costs less than 8 USD per device in large quantities, so we are talking about something like USD 30 - 35 for the 4GBytes.

So while that might indeed be more than the cost for an average SSD drive (it is high quality SLC flash, 100.000 program / erase cycles), asking for more than 4 GBytes is not over the top, or what do you think?

well, if you ask, I'll tell you what I think.
I think that it doesn't matter, doesn't matter AT ALL.
the Montage comes with crazy, amazing, beautifully nuanced sounds in all categories. to me, it's better than a Kronos ten times! so if it sounds THAT good, and has all those sounds built in, I don't care if you call it 4GB, 400GB or 4TB.

Yamaha squeezed staggering amount of content on the Montage, you won't believe until you browse it! it's really out there, let me tell you!

based on my comment earlier I compared a sh**** sounding 10GB sax library for the Kronos, to a probably few 10s of MBs worth of saxes on the Montage. the difference is staggering.
so when it comes to it, the Kronos sounds pretty okay-ish, next to a Montage.

the instrument is beautiful, fast, innovative concept, well integrated across all bases, easy to use and sounds great! and better than anything else out there. so as long as it is that, I don't care about specs.

you can keep on reading specs, comparing, practically wasting your time on something that's not so productive (in my view) and meanwhile miss on a great piece of gear.

btw,
the Kronos has "9" engines, well it's not really 9 engines... I mean, you can call the Piano a separate engine, the STR-1 (which really sounds like crap) a separate engine, etc. I grant you that - it does have good B3 sounds and rhodes sounds! oh, and your precious VA too.

but again, when it comes to it, it's not well integrated. everything is separate on the Kronos and not really talking to each other.
the Montage really feels like a unified instrument, with many sounds utilizing both architectures to good use. not to mention the super ease of use layering sounds, creating complex performances, unlike the Kronos - I remember it had a really steep learning curve! on the Montage you press "+", and build up your performance. so easy! I pay, partly, for that.

in a few years time you'll try the Montage and tell yourself damn, what have I missed! trust me.

nice nerdy chat. now let's make music.

I'm not saying Montage is a bad instrument, don't get me wrong. Tried it two or three times in a store and there were many things I liked about it (Superknob, FM, look & feel...)

But I still feel there are some unfortunate design compromises. Yes sure Yamaha is excellent in squeezing high quality content in a small amount of wave memory , but why restricting yourself if it is not necessary? Its 2017, not 1990ties when memory was scarce. Its the replacement of the MOTIF, after 5 years of development- its certainly not cheap- and yet it has less user memory than the XF (with 2 GBytes expansion). Why?

So I guess I will wait and see what will come....some of my other points might be adressed in future OS upgrades. Maybe I'll change my mind. And who knows- Montage ES? 😉

I'm with you on this one Falk! and I own a Montage 6...lots of things to love about it and it does sound fantastic..but especially the weird MIDI implementation bothers me.. there's got to be a way they can make the Midi channels freely assignable and also a sort of 'local off" for individual sounds that are being sent to another keyboard to be played etc...I guess I'm one of those weirdos that actually does gigs( prog rock -pop- to Christmas shows where I'm expected to cover every bell (literally and whistle) with many splits and layers and also use Mainstage in conjunction with a weighted controller (CP4)...the unassignable Midi is really not cool for guys like us..i even ran into this interview with Rick Wakeman where he hints at this issue pertaining to the Montage at about 5 minutes in.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQNWiCqFJaw I hope they come up with a way to fix it via an OS update but so far it hasn't happened

Falk wrote:

I'm not saying Montage is a bad instrument, don't get me wrong. Tried it two or three times in a store and there were many things I liked about it (Superknob, FM, look & feel...)

But I still feel there are some unfortunate design compromises. Yes sure Yamaha is excellent in squeezing high quality content in a small amount of wave memory , but why restricting yourself if it is not necessary? Its 2017, not 1990ties when memory was scarce. Its the replacement of the MOTIF, after 5 years of development- its certainly not cheap- and yet it has less user memory than the XF (with 2 GBytes expansion). Why?

So I guess I will wait and see what will come....some of my other points might be adressed in future OS upgrades. Maybe I'll change my mind. And who knows- Montage ES? 😉

To be frank, even if it had 512KB memory instead of 4GB and it would've sounded the same as it is now, I wouldn't care. Think about it, if Yamaha ditched their compression algos and put the same sounds on a 200GB SSD. or 1TB SSD, but same sound, you would be content right? it should be judged by sound only. because that's what it does!

btw, I have lots of expansions installed on my Montage, more than I ever could on the Kronos!

Montage supports 8 libraries of 640 performances each, another "library" of 640 user presets, AND around 2000 factory ones - there was never a synth in HISTORY with such expandability! Yamaha proves once and again that great sound doesn't necessarily need hundreds of gigabytes. heck, you can't even find a decent Clavinet on the Kronos, and on the Montage you have more than 20 great ones. and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I didn't even care about the specs, I just heard it and had to have it. the GUI, the sounds, make all the difference.
I don't care why they choose to keep having small memory footprint to the sounds as the sounds speak for themselves.

Yamaha put so much R&D into the Montage and its very unlikely to see a successor in the next few years (I think at least 3 or 4 more years - at LEAST). it's currently hands down the best in the market however you name it. it is MUCH more than the sum of its parts. trust me.

so while you keep waiting for the next one (which you'll have other gripes with, for sure) you'll miss on one of the best instruments of the decade.

Hey Eyal,

I can read that you are very passionate about the Montage and that it suits your needs.

I think I am looking at the Montage as a whole and its place in the current market.

The Montage is pretty much a live performance board and motion control synthesis is a way to do real time automation in a live setting. I imagine this feature is pretty awesome if you are the centre piece of a small band or are a gigging soloist. These user observations are not critiquing you as a person or the way in which you interact with the Montage. I don’t have the right to do that nor does anybody else. What I, and a few others are trying to do is open up dialogue regarding the current user functionality and studio integration. Before I brought the Montage I was on this very forum looking and researching trying to ascertain whether making the purchase would suit my set up. Therefore these discussions may have merit for someone who does not have a lot of money and would benefit from the perspective of a person who is not a gigging musician before purchasing the Montage. Also these discussions are in a forum where we can directly raise issues with Yamaha. Its no good simply posting amazing love stories of how well the Montage suits your needs anytime a person raises problems that they face with their purchase. These issues raised are as a result of the marketing, we are expecting a certain level of integration and sound design usability. Many of us feel that this is not there and would like to know why and if the company has plans to do so in the future. This is all very important information when you have invested significant finances into a piece of studio equipment.

So I repeat again the issues with the Montages current incarnation and possible reasons that may hamper commercial success.

The Montage when it was first released was marketed as a synthesiser that could be the focus of your studio set up – this was illustrated with

1. 16 simultaneous lanes of audio – whilst receiving 3 – On the surface really good however some performances have multiple parts which in reality does limit the 16 channel claim – Also working with the Midi of multiple performances (when instrument is used multi timbral) is not for the faint hearted as there are multiple midi notes that are recorded to the track. In fact the simplest thing and most time efficient (for me in the studio) is to simply use one instrument at a time, make the edits in midi and then bounce down to audio and process in the box – all of which I could do just as well with a sound library from Native Instruments.
2. New sound design techniques using a combination of AWM2 and FMX – Very challenging to program and navigate. There have been no tutorial videos from Yamaha as a way of mediating this possible misconception. However the Montage has great stock sounds
3. Motion synthesis to revolutionize expression when playing – Great for live performance but when working with a computer and building a mix we have automation which we can use to precisely place and modulate target audio within the stereo field. Honestly, lane automation when mixing a project is where a producer/mix engineer will see most benefit.
4. On board DSP effects – Great to have but sound design is challenging and assigning effects require a deal on menu diving – To increase speed many are most likely to bounce to audio end up using the hosts software VST’s
5. Pure Analog Circuitry – Great for live performance but in order to make use within the studio you will need to re-route the audio back into the Montage or another audio interface to capture the quality. Not the end of the world but perhaps suggestive of the true nature of the Montage i.e. performance synth (Not really in keeping with the initial marketing strategy!).

I am very keen to understand just why there has been resistance/silence from Yamaha to release perhaps a couple of videos in which an expert takes folk through the sound design process explaining tips and hints that would be useful to the beginner or novice. I am concerned that this has not been considered beneficial at least to the early adopters and potential customers. In the world of YouTube and electronics we surely cannot use production costs as a defence – hell with a mobile phone and a bedroom people are uploading successful videos to YouTube. To be clear the manuals that have been provided by BadMister are certainly extremely helpful but we also need some visual aides to support the text. We need real world videos that show us the Montage in a real world studio action. Videos where a modern popular synth sound (think Skrilex, Flume etc) is successfully emulated on the Montage accompanied with an appropriately detailed explanation/demonstration. Such a resource could effectively ‘open’ up the Montage as a sound design tool for a lot of the users who are not gigging musicians and whom don’t particularly think that a pad using motion control should be as good as it gets.

I get that some folk are happy with the piano’s and strings etc but for some of us the power under the bonnet is what we are really seeking the keys for. The power to create. Is it possible? Is it accessible to modern producer or do you need a degree and Yamaha? Are the results that can be achieved head and shoulders above the rest or at the very least on par with competition (VSTS) ? If not changes should be made otherwise there will be problems with the boards commercial success and that will have ramifications for the customers who are frustrated with the perceived lack of functionality and also the teams involved in the R&D and the synth arm as a whole. It’s the flag ship model should we really be requesting the above almost a year after its release ?

Falk wrote:

@ Eyal, concerning the Flash memory of Montage...

If the analysis by http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ is correct, it consists of four Spansion (Cypress) S34ML08G101TFI000 8Gbit devices. If you do a quick search on the internet you'll find it costs less than 8 USD per device in large quantities, so we are talking about something like USD 30 - 35 for the 4GBytes.

So while that might indeed be more than the cost for an average SSD drive (it is high quality SLC flash, 100.000 program / erase cycles), asking for more than 4 GBytes is not over the top, or what do you think?

I'm not going to spend more time than I have researching - but back in 2014 according to a product selector - all of Spansion's memory for SLC NAND including the ML-2 series (newer 32nm process) only went up to 8Gb density. I'm not sure when the 16Gb density came into play - but the memory controller may have some limits in terms of how many physical parts it can support / address. The part selected (again, if the analysis is correct) is the ML-1 series part. The ML-2 series, if the part is a BGA part can support a single CE# which matches the 8Gb part in the sand... analysis. The rub there is the higher pin pitch density and lack of routing channel probably drives up the layer count which is an additional cost on the PCB.

"Just adding 4 more" is not always an option. Replacing with higher density parts may be an option - but there's no (in the Spansion ML line) drop-in-replacement for the single CE# 8Gb parts that give you any more space. And, as mentioned, even if they did a board relayout for BGA - the layer count would have to go up which has an impact on cost. There are other considerations as well - BGAs have a higher junction failure rate due to board flex or heat fluctuations - so reliability would go down using BGA. There's also a "retooling" cost - I put it in quotes since this is a mechanical term - but when you relayout a board, there's a fixed "throwaway" cost you need to go through to prototype the first run - using small quantities - so your per unit cost is higher for these runs. So it's like a retooling cost in the mechanical world.

Memory parts are very finicky about timing requirements. So as you go from one part to another - one family to another - there's lots of testing you have to do to validate the part is OK. Which is another cost both in time of man hours and in terms of TTM (how long it takes to complete before customers can benefit).

Looking at this in terms of cost is not quite the right prism to use - although it's the easiest to explain so often cost will be employed as rationale why products end up with the parts they do. Cost drove the part selection TSOP vs BGA (per unit cost of the parts and board cost upcharge if layers would have to be added) - but there's more to it than that.

There is, of course, an even longer and more elaborate set of considerations - but I've summarized a few items which feed into why Montage has the memory it does rather than a "magical" different combination of parts.

I dont think that the Montage needs VA. it already has filters and can get very close to saw square and triangle wavs. I wouldn't use it either since i have 9 Analog synths. I know I can speak for everyone else but i can at least speak for myself and would much rather see other enhancements like assignable MIDI channels for performance parts and enhancing the awesome FM engine (which is why i bought it). Also there is more than enough space for WAV data IMO.

WoW! 9 analog synths. Off topic here but I'm enjoying the Matribrute but why would anyone need 9 analog synths? Maybe some are soft synths. Don't they all make essentially the same sounds except for added polyphony which gets really expensive? I know features, filters and waveforms can vary too. I'll be happy for a while with just one matrixbrute.

I've had my Montage-8 for about 3 weeks and it has been a very good experience. I will not be gigging live with it, due to its immensity, but it is becoming my 'go-to' device in my production studio.
•sound quality is 'a step above' (thru the USB to the DAW and thru the headphone outs to a powered speaker set to eliminate latency in the DAW
•the programming interface does have a learning curve - but it's just that: once you 'get things' they're yours to use forever. I've made some sounds I like and use already.
•there are so many sounds and grooves in this thing that you'll be finding new ones for a long time, is what I predict.
•the FM, as Stefan or Eyal wrote, may be 'the new analog' - as an old DX7 programmer, I recreated one of my favorite sounds from scratch -but it sounds 10x as cool, because there are more operators, and you can layer them. I am looking forward to taking the time to 'convert' a few, if I can figure how to get Galaxy banks into sysex format...

Bottom line (and I did get a great deal on mine on eBay, no, not $2250, but a good deal) it's a little like a girlfriend: it may not be the right One for you, but if it is, and you put a lot of work into it, you will be rewarded 10fold. (My MX49 is getting jealous, but that's like my kid!)

I just got a Montage 8 (picked up for a good price in the UK) and I am still not convinced.

I have the Motif XF8 - had the XS6 before that - and to be honest - the lack of full Cubase integration is annoying. As a minimum I want to be able to start / stop recording and change the track numbers from the synth. I don't care about built in sequencer - but I do care about having my stuff deposited straight into Cubase without to much hassle as in "backup and restore" like it is now.

The Montage sounds are great - no doubt - but the product seems like it is designed by millennials for millennials... So designed for instant gratification with little work 😀 - and probably the greatest synth for "live" bands. And for the superknob... No comments.....

So I would probably have preferred a Motif Montage 8 - with all the Motif features expanded and modernised into the Montage sounds and display/touch screen.

And with the price I paid for a 2nd hand (1 1/2 month old 2nd hand) - I was amazed. I bought the Montage for not much more than what I could probably sell my Motif for. That does show that the Montage might not be the commercial success Yamaha hoped for. As I'm not alone in picking up Montage's for a huge discount that substantiates the postulate. And looking at Reverb classifieds the 2nd hand prices for Motif's dipped a lot on Montage introduction - but have now come back up to a very high level for a synth that age.

So for now I'll keep the Montage 8 and Motif XF8 - but I do think I would be tempted to switch the Montage 8 out with a Montage 6 and still use the Motif as Main and the Montage for the very irregular times I go out and play with others - and as "rack mount" synth controlled by the Motif when home.

So the Montage is great - but I'm not in love...

Montage prices came down considerably in the last 2 months here in Germany. I hope Yamaha will bring out another OS update soon to address some points...namely, more flexible MIDI implementation, and also improved importing of user samples. Still consider buying it...