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Montage M - OS 3.0 update - Note shift +-48? Yes and No but MOSTLY yes!

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 Toby
Posts: 692
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The update implements an oft requested change of part Note shift to +-48, up from 24.

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PART NOTE RANGE

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The part-level note shift acts as an offset to the element level note shifts which are still effected using the 'Coarse' parm on the Osc/Tune screen of an element. Element range is still +-48 but now the part range is also +-48.

So to shift the entire part more than 24 semitones you no longer need to adjust the elements one-by-one.

Use the part's 'General/Pitch->Pitch' screen 'Note Shift' parm. This parm is also now shown in scene memory when you enable the new 'Note Limit' scene memory switch. That says 'Note Limit' for the switch but has both 'Note Limit' and 'Note Shift' parms available.

These values can be set for both internal and external parts but it can be confusing because internal and external handle things slightly differently in terms of naming and values.

1. Both internal/external parts, on the 'General/Pitch screen have tabs for 'Part Settings', 'Zone Settings' and 'Pitch'

2. The 'Part Settings' screen has 'TG Note Limit' lo/hi parms but these are only used for internal and NOT external parts

3. The 'Pitch' screen has a 'Note Shift' parm but it is ONLY for internal parts and not external parts

4. The 'Zone Settings' screen has 'Zone Note Limit', 'Octave Shift', 'Transpose' and 'Part Mode' (external/internal) parms but all is not what it seems:

A. 'Octave Shift' is what it says and shifts (not transpose) 12 semitones at a time

B. 'Transpose' is NOT a transpose but is actually 'Note Shift' - both this and 'Octave Shift' are shifts - they do NOT change the MIDI note generated whereas a 'transpose' does.

C. Both A and B on this screen are used for external parts only and NOT for internal parts

D. For external parts the new 'Note Shift' parm on the scene memory page is calculated using A and B. That is an octave shift of -2 and a transpose (really a shift) of -7 results in the scene memory parm showing -31: (-2 * 12) + (-7) = -31. So on the memory screen you can set the 'Note Shift' parm to a number of semitones for both internal and external parts.

But when you return to the zone settings screen for an external part you will again see -2 and -7 even though you entered -31!

CAVEAT: for an internal part the zone note limit parms ARE USED in combination with the internal parts note limits even though they aren't used otherwise.

So for an internal part if you accidentally set a note limit range other than full MIN and full MAX that range can, and will, filter the part range you set on the 'Part Settings' screen. That can happen if you used a zone range for an external part but then changed the part to internal.  

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AUDITION NOTE SHIFT

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The Note Shift range on the 'General/Pitch->Audition' screen is still +-24 semitones. 

These audition parms are now on their own tab - they used to be on the 'Perf Settings' screen

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PERFORMANCE NOTE SHIFT

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A new 'Perf Note Shift' parm on the 'General/Pitch->Pitch->Note Shift/Detune' tabe lets you provide an OFFSET of +-48 to all parts without having to adjust each part individually.

So with OS 3.0 you can set the shift for elements of a part relative to each other, use the part shift to shift ALL elements +-48 semitones to adjust all parts relative to each other and use performance shift to shift the entire perf up or down.

This perf shift parm may have an issue in that, for external parts, it displays the 'Note Shift' from the parts 'Pitch' screen rather than the 'Octave Shift'/'Transpose' combo from the 'Zone Settings' screen like the scene memory screen shows.

Hope the above is useful info - even for just a seemingly simple change there are a LOT of things to check/test to try to see how everything is working. Apologies if we overlooked something or got it wrong. Feel free to correct any mistakes.

 
Posted : 25/06/2025 7:27 pm
Jason
Posts: 8523
Illustrious Member
 

Any of these shifting things that can "add up" - you may want to start looking to see if the notes hit a ceiling or floor.   Like what happens if you Perf Shift +48, scene note shift by the maximum, Part note shift by the maximum, and element shift by the max.   I haven't read the manual to see what the calculus is.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 25/06/2025 9:49 pm
 Toby
Posts: 692
Prominent Member
Topic starter
 

Can you suggest a particular use case that might be expected to expose an issue such as a sample 'stretch' issue?

Not trying to shift the burden to you - we are happy to do more tests.

But the tests we have done so far merely serve to indicate that the various perf/part/elem settings are offsets to each other.

Like what happens if you Perf Shift +48, scene note shift by the maximum, Part note shift by the maximum, and element shift by the max.

Being OFFSETS (or seemingly so based on test results) those just get added together algebraically to get one shift amount. 

So a perf shift of -36 offsets a part shift of +36 back to 0. These all sound the same to us and the oscilloscope images look pretty much the same also.

Please, if you have a particular scenario in mind that you think might show something post the particulars and we will check it out.

   I haven't read the manual to see what the calculus is.

There isn't such a thing in the docs that we can find.

We are also still confused over how the interplay between the 'Zone Settings' values and the 'Pitch' screen values is designed.

If the 'Display Mode' is 'Mode/Transpose' (p.117 of Operations doc) those 'Oct' and 'Trans' values are from the 'Zone Settings' screen (p.92 graphic).

Except those are the wrong parms for an internal part.

On the new OS 3.0 scene memory screen the parms shown for an internal part are those on the 'Pitch' screen. External parts use the parms on the 'Zone Settings' screen.

We havent' been able to get an answer yet from Yamaha as to why the mismatch. 

 
Posted : 25/06/2025 11:11 pm
Jason
Posts: 8523
Illustrious Member
 

Often offsets have a floor and a ceiling and if there is more than one place that can offset a value then eventually you run into a situation where the underlying parameter limits get saturated.   I have no M to explore this.  It's important to know how it works - if there are any limitations - so that you aren't surprised in the heat of a programming battle.   If the system can tolerate maxing out all of the parameters and the notes end up in the right place then this is good to know.  If you crank up one parameter and that only gives you a limited range of another parameter then this would be good to understand.

 

I'm not assuming any limitation - but it's something to explore so one establishes the "ground rules" of the new sound design options.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 26/06/2025 2:54 am
 Toby
Posts: 692
Prominent Member
Topic starter
 

Not sure how we would go about testing for floors or ceilings.

We've maxed out the various levels in various combos but the result either sounds the same to our ears or it gets shifted so high/low you can no longer hear it at all. 

Forgot to mention that the value in scene memory is NOT an offset on it's own but just a reflection of the part offset from the other screen.

 

 
Posted : 26/06/2025 3:09 am
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