Hello Darryl - you are correct in my modus operandi. Normally I delete Libraries on the Montage before starting a session - depends what's there and what I intend to do. I'd delete the Motif stuff too if I could! I work with sounds, not music, so generally only use single-part Pfs - either to create new multi-part Pfs, or tweak the Elements/Effects for a new single-part Pf. I use multi-part presets to examine what experts have done! Montage is brilliant for stuff like that.

I don't use the Live Sets at all, so can't answer your question specifically. If I had a tweaked Pf loaded as a Live Set, and then re-tweaked it, I guess the Live Set would remain unchanged unless I also deleted the original tweaked Pf. Normally I save the newly tweaked Pf as a New Pf rather than over-write the original. I have considered using the Live Sets as 'Go to' places for frequently used single-part Pfs, but my current programme of work does not involve frequent use of the same sound, so I've not got round to it.

I rarely listen to Auditions as I have little use for them. It seems to me that Montage invents an audition to suit a tweaked Pf though. Preset auditions obviously remain unchanged, as would auditions of tweaked Pfs unless they are deleted. Once deleted the audition's gone too.

It's a question of developing a modus operandi to suit you and accommodate Montage's sometimes quirky little ways. It's took me 2 years to come to a workable compromise (with the frequent help of members of this Forum, particularly Bad Mister and Jason). But it's worth all the effort ...

Set lists I would generally advise your User Setlist only point to either Presets or User Performances. It would be "best" to Library Import the Performance(s) you want to point to that are only in the Library area and point the Set List slot to the User bank copy. This isn't really a rule - there's no harm in pointing to anything you want to as long as you realize the possible consequences.

Last two questions in this topic regarding 'Setlists' and 'Auditions/Songs':

1. After wiping the User area (via loading X3A) and then Importing/merging back all previous User area content that was tweaked, saved to USB as X7L, then loaded back to a Library area slot ... how does the this affect all the 'Setlist' links to User Performances that were previously linked to those Performances in the User area before tweaking them, saving, loading to Library slot, then re-imported/merged back to the User area? Does the SetList(s) just see that the same performances are back in the User area somewhere and retains the links? Or would I need to need to relink all the SetLists?

I assume it's best to save Setlist Performances from the User area, even if wiping and re-importing the Performances..!?

2. What about Performances in the User area with 'Auditions' (sequencing/songs) linked/associated with those Performances? When saving the User Area content to an X7L file (with Performances having associated Auditions), then wiping the User area (i.e. loading a new X3A), loading the X7L to a Library area slot, and then re-importing/merging back to the User area; does that affect the 'Auditions' that were linked to their respective Performances, or do the Auditions remaining linked to the same performances as they were before?

The setlist will be in the Library area - so you cannot relink (if you needed to) because the Library area cannot be modified. For this reason, I'm sure that if you have user content that is pointing to the user area in the user setlist - when you promote this content to a library - the user Performance will now be Library Performances and the setlist should point to the Library location for those previously user Performances. I haven't promoted my own user content to test - but it's easy enough to figure out with a small 1-user-performance library with a 1-entry setlist.

If you have user auditions, these should migrate to the Library area. If they are preset auditions, they'll continue to point to the preset bank.

As far as I know, you start running into "trouble" when your user bank Live Set or Waveforms point to a Library bank and then you start shuffling user to libraries and/or deleting libraries. As long as pointers point to either their own bank or to the Preset bank - the data should be "self contained" and not depend on what happens outside of the bank.

As far as I know, you start running into "trouble" when your user bank Live Set or Waveforms point to a Library bank and then you start shuffling user to libraries and/or deleting libraries. As long as pointers point to either their own bank or to the Preset bank - the data should be "self contained" and not depend on what happens outside of the bank.

When you load a User area X7L file to a Library slot and go to Import/Merge it back into the User area where it was originally saved from, is there specific User area "banks" or places that you can save it to?
If yes, and you have both 'Live Sets' and 'Auditions' associated with specific Performances in that User area Bank, will the Live Set and Audition remain linked to that re-imported Performance?

Note - When I refer to 'Auditions', I am talking about Songs that I recorded via Performance Recorder, then Edited via a DAW / Montage Connect, then imported back into the Montage via USB midi file, and re-linked as an 'Audition' to the Performance I had used to record the song (at least that what I think is the way it's done from what I've read on other forums). My plan is to have Live Sets linked to Performances that have specific Songs/Auditions, so that when I play live gigs, I just choose the Live Set performance, start the Audition, then Play/Sing that song...then go onto another Live Set Performance, start the Audition for that song and play/sing through it, etc.

Is the User area still the right place to have Performances that are linked to 'Live Sets' and have linked 'Auditions' in some of those specific Performances, so that when I tweak performances, and then maybe save the User area, load a new .X3A, load the saved .X7L back to a Library slot and re-Import back to the same User area 'bank' (if that's possible), all the links to 'Live Sets' and 'Auditions/Songs' will remain intact and associated the way it was prior to loading the .X3A...? Or am I going to continually have to re-link Live Sets and Auditions to the Performances in the User area?

Hello Darryl! Just an observation - it seems to me you have the wrong keyboard for doing what you describe ... surely the 'Genos' is more what you need? A stage Arranger is more easily managed for stage performances. The 'Montage' is much more of a synthesisrer and much less of an arranger. Horses for courses? Ideally I'd have both except for the matter of not having the required several thousands of dollars/pounds/euros ...

Please be sure to go back and review, and re-review the following: https://www.yamahasynth.com/yamaha-synth-rss/user-and-library
It outlines the basics which you are still working to understand.

Files are named by where they are intended to be loaded to. An X7L is called a Library file. The content could have originated from the User bank (so I get what you mean when you say a "User X7L" ) - it's just a bit of a misnomer. Better to describe as an X7L Library file that was created from your keyboard's User bank.

When you save an X7L (Library File) or X7U (User File) - meaning they are to be loaded to the Library or User area respectively - the following information is saved (from the linked tutorial): "Performances (up to 640), the arpeggios, the microtunings, the custom control Curves, the custom Motion Sequences and the Live Sets".

So when you SAVE a library or user file, the live set from your user area will be saved along with all the other data.

When you LOAD (install) the library file created from the user bank, the live set that was once a part of your user bank will be installed into the same Library slot that the associated Performances that were previously part of the user bank.

I think you pretty much get this part. It's the Library Import that seems more fuzzy. You cannot import the Live Set, for example. All you import are the Performances and associated Waveform. You cannot import/copy the Live Set from one bank to another. So if you do import a Performance that was once a part of the User bank - and assuming you've wiped (initialized) the user bank so there is no live set - after the import (even if you import 640 Performances) - there will be no Live Set. You have to rebuild the Live Set. You didn't have to initialize the User area. You could have manually deleted many Performances and left the Live Set in-tact. In which case, you'll need to rebuilt the Live Set entry for this new imported Performance because the location in the User bank is likely going to be different. You do not manage where Performances land - Montage does this behind the scenes. External tools have a little more control in terms of where Performances are placed (you can move them around). This is not easily done or practical on Montage itself.

I understood what you meant by auditions.

Please be sure to go back and review, and re-review the following: https://www.yamahasynth.com/yamaha-synth-rss/user-and-library
It outlines the basics which you are still working to understand.

I did, thanks! Very helpful...

Having read it, it doesn't mention anything about importing from the Library to a specific 'Bank' or 'location' in the User area..!? Is this possible, to specify where/what bank or slot in the User area you want content to go to, or is the User area one big area with no bank/slot structure to it? Just curious...

When you save an X7L (Library File) or X7U (User File) - meaning they are to be loaded to the Library or User area respectively - the following information is saved (from the linked tutorial): "Performances (up to 640), the arpeggios, the microtunings, the custom control Curves, the custom Motion Sequences and the Live Sets".
So when you SAVE a library or user file, the live set from your user area will be saved along with all the other data.

Sounds like I could keep my Live Sets & Auditions linked to Performances in the User area if I save the User area as a .X7U file instead..!?
So if I wanted to keep those 2 things linked to Performances in the User area, but I wipe the User area to load a new .X3A library, would it be best to first save the User area as a .X7U file (not .X7L), then weed through the new .X3A Performances, save the keeper Performances in the User area as a .X7L file, load the .X7U file back to the User area to keep all Performances/Live Sets/Auditions/etc. linked together, then load to the Library area the newly saved .X7L file(that was created from the .X3A in the User area), and import to the User area, all the keeper Performances?

Notice that I through 'Auditions/Songs' in there, as I am assuming that loading a .X7U file back to the User area will also save all the Auditions associated with those User Performances in addition to the Live Sets..!? Or is it that the 'Auditions/Songs' are stored in a separate location, but might re-associate with the User Area Performances that were loaded back in!? Or are User area Performances not even capable of creating/re-inserting 'Auditions/Songs'?

I'm just trying to figure out the best workflow for me, whereby I want to:
(A) 'tweak' things a bit every now and then
(B) keep 'Live Sets' linked to Performances for live gigs
(C) keep 'Auditions/Songs' associated with the same Performance for live gigs, after having saved the Song I did via the Performance Recorder (Sequencer) to my DAW, edit all the tracks on the DAW and save back to the USB ... then "?Load/Import?" back to the Montage and re-associate it with the same Performance that it was created in originally. Then going forward, maintain that 'Auditions/Songs' association with the same Performance...!?

Also, the article never mentioned anything about loading more than 8 Libraries if they are separated by Category, as per what Rod had said above: "ALWAYS saved as a Library file. It is slower because of having to Load and then Import to User - but that's the way things are. And I separate Libraries by Category, which you can do with a USB - you're not limited to 8. Smaller Libraries - so if you're thinking of more than one Category - say Strings and Brass - you have to Load two small Libraries"

Is this possible to have more than eight libraries loaded if done via Category? If so, does it still put them in Library slots or are slots no longer utilized the same way when using categories..?

** I know I have been throwing a lot of questions, but just so you all know, you are all being extremely helpful and I truly appreciate this, as I work through my understanding of how things work on the Montage and what workflow will ultimately be best for me! I'll know much of the terminology and a good bit about workflow, before I even get my Montage8 & learn exactly where all the buttons on the keyboard & screen are, hopefully early in the new year! 😉

I'm not sure exactly how user Auditions work since that's a new feature and the reference manual hasn't been updated to reflect the new feature. The MODX manuals are newer so I look to those.

Page 198 of https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/1192582/modx_en_rm_a0.pdf shows (note: only X7U currently applies to Montage):

Files of the “User File” type saved to USB flash drive can be
loaded and restored to the dedicated area in the User Memory
of the instrument (page 23).
User File Type data is as follows.
• Performance
• Arpeggio
• Motion Sequence
• Curve
• Live Set
• Micro Tuning
• Waveform
• Utility settings
• Quick Setup
• Audition

So you can see that the "User File" which is an X7U will include all of the user auditions.

EDIT 12/21: Noticed I previously said "user file" below. Typo corrected.
Likewise, the library file (X7L only for Montage) includes:

Files of the “Library File” type saved to USB flash drive can be
loaded and restored to the dedicated area in the User Memory
of the instrument (page 23).
Library File Type data is as follows.
• Performance
• Arpeggio
• Motion Sequence
• Curve
• Live Set
• Micro Tuning
• Waveform
• Audition

Next, somehow something isn't clicking on this topic:

Having read it, it doesn't mention anything about importing from the Library to a specific 'Bank' or 'location' in the User area..!? Is this possible, to specify where/what bank or slot in the User area you want content to go to, or is the User area one big area with no bank/slot structure to it? Just curious...

There are no areas inside the User area. Montage manages this for you. There are 8 different Libraries (slots, or areas). As a user, you do not manage these. Montage manages which slot is used. You can find out which slot is used by using the "Property" feature: http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/musical-instruments/keyboards/synthesizers/montage/11002/9187

The user area is one big pool of 640 Performances. You cannot choose where a Library import will be funneled inside the user area. Montage chooses the location automatically. The keyboardist has no need to know about the absolute location of Performances except to have an external controller or DAW address the Performance by a Bank and PC message. You use the method described above ("Property" feature) to determine the MSB/LSB/PC.

Likewise, the Library area is made of of 8 pools of 640 Performance each. You do not get to pick the pool when LOADING (installing) Library files. Montage does this file management for you. Again, if you need to know the absolute memory address - use the "Property" feature for the Library Performance.

What's confusing is that software like Camelot Pro or Melas tools show what looks like several banks. Melas does this likely because it's carry-over from the Motif days when you actually had segmented banks using letters A-H. Where letter A had 16 Performances (or voices) A1-A16 through letter H1-H16. A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H[1-16] represents 128 Performances. Montage no longer has this concept. Dividing the User or Library Slots into any smaller areas (Like User 1, User 2, etc) only makes sense to software. You will not see this anywhere on the keyboard itself. Your relation to the data using the keyboard is the entire User area (640 Performances at a time). The concept of User 1, User 2 is something that makes sense to Melas because User 1 is addressed through MIDI using the same MSB/LSB and PC=0-127. User 2 is address through the previous MSB/LSB+1 and PC=0-127. And so on. Segmenting the user area into smaller chunks is not particularly practical for you as a user using the keyboard interface since Montage does not provide this segmentation on-screen.

Since utility settings are quick settings are not of a concern for you, ignoring those - the only difference between X7U and X7L is the DESTINATION of where you want to LOAD (install) your saved content. X7U installs to User. X7L installs a Library slot. There's no difference in terms of what's saved, how it is saved, audition pointers, live set pointers, etc. The consequence is only if you want to be able to keep revising the data or not. Once you promote an X7L to a Library slot, that content in the library cannot be modified. You'd have to make a User copy (using [STORE], waveform will not be copied) or import copy (using Library Import) which will bring in the Waveform if it's there (and not legacy converted content). This is a choice of how you want to work and manage your content.

Again, just get solid on the fundamental rules. These specific use cases start going off into the weeds with some slight deviations from the fundamentals. Once the basics are understood - you create your own story for how to use it. The link provides a good overview. Happy to clarify anything - but at some point you just need to dig in and use the system to get a feel for how it works.

There are no areas inside the User area. Montage manages this for you. There are 8 different Libraries (slots, or areas). As a user, you do not manage these. Montage manages which slot is used.
The user area is one big pool of 640 Performances.

Sounds like the X7U file saving might be the way for me to go...

Thanks for the clarification on the User area!

Corrected a typo in the description I previously gave. Marked with "EDIT".

OK, after well over a half year of research to decide on what synth to buy and having waited over a month since I ordered it, my new Montage 8 arrived this past Saturday! It is a beast!! 😀
Not just in weight, price or the massive amount of awesome quality preset performances, etc., but the learning curve is huge and will take a while to get to where I want to be with it.

I am glad I figured out my workflow here & learned some terminology, whereby I will Library Import everything to the User area and save that 'main' User area to 2 USB sticks for backup.

First I need to get the basics nailed down and then continue learning from there to more advanced stuff.
This one I have already gone through ( https://www.yamahasynth.com/yamaha-synth-rss/user-and-library).

1 - Is there a list of resource materials(links/videos) you could recommend that I should start with (besides the link above), in an order that makes sense? (all the way up into advanced resources...)

2 - Clarifications on ADD/Merging Performances to the User area:
a. Is it correct say that both "Library Import" and "[STORE]" can ADD/Merge Performances safely to the User Area without destroying content in the User area?
b. I know that using Library Import to promote library content to the User area, will also copy waveforms associated with the Performance to the User area as well. However if I do a Library Import of a factory 'Preset' performance (i.e. CFX Concert piano), does it still copy the waveforms for that piano to the User area, or does it not copy factory 'Preset' waveforms and instead points back to the actual factory Preset waveforms for those new Performances in the User area (thereby not using up much User area space for that piano performance)?
c. When I save/backup the User area to USB .X7U & possibly .X7L file(s), does it also save/backup Performance 'waveforms' that were Library Imported from factory 'Presets', onto the USB stick (i.e. CFX Concert piano), or does it just maintain the pointer to the 'Preset' waveforms for those type of non-custom waveform Performances and not copy any factory Preset waveforms to USB.

Presets will never be offloaded from Montage with waveforms. The preset Waveforms are always, for everyone, contained inside the Montage itself. There is absolutely no need to extract the Waveforms and save them to any media in order to use presets. Presets only store a pointer to the preset area Waveform content. The only reason one would want to "extract" the preset waveforms is if they want to use these waveforms in another device or VSTi (not supported) or to mangle/manipulate into a new sound. If you want to create your own samples based off the internal sounds - you would re-sample the audio output from Montage and generate your own samples. Using Samplerobot can assist with automating this task.

Neither Library Import nor [STORE] (create new Performance) will overwrite anything in the User area. If the User bank contains the source of the Performance you are [STORE]'ing - then one option is to overwrite the original Performance with the new edited version. In this case, the User area would be modified/overwritten - by your command. The prompt is clear and does "warn" you and give the option to NOT overwrite anything.

There are lots of resources - tutorials here on this site as well as videos on Youtube. There may be other people selling guides, books, tutorials elsewhere. A search engine can uncover various sources. Certainly the manuals can be helpful as well.

These links should get you started...
MONTAGE: The Basics

MONTAGE: Navigation Tips

MONTAGifying Motif XF Article Series Guide

Mastering MONTAGE Video Series

MONTAGE 101: 6-Part Video Series

Mastering MONTAGE Splits/Layers, Scenes, Articulations...(Video)

Mastering MONTAGE: Inside the Performance (Video)

Thanks Guys, very helpful to start with! I'll be checking out those links first thing after work...

Just FYI ... I don't want to create new samples based off the Presets. Just the opposite. I just wanted to make sure that the Performance waveforms in the User area remained linked to the Presets waveforms and would never be copied to the USB. 1.75 GB is not all that much if you add numerous piano performances to the User area, unless they are based off the Preset waveforms/performances of course 😉

What got me thinking about this was Wojtek Olszak's piano enhancement to the preset CFX Concert piano. It appears the main differences to his version of the CFX are just eq'ing, compression and a few other tweaks, but I am wondering ... Did Wojtek actually modify the CFX samples & are no longer pointing to the Presets waveforms (& that's why his library is so large), or is his customized version of the CFX piano just pointing to the preset factory samples? Just wondering why his library is so large ... either he did actually modify the preset factory CFX piano samples 'or' the other sounds he gave us is where all the size of that library is from..!? Anyone know?

The Wojtek set is large because it has samples of the CS80, CP1, Mark V, and a different sample set for a CFX based piano. Not the preset. Wojtek knows better than to duplicate content already in the presets - so, for whatever reason, he elected to populate his own samples for a CFX on the set. Not just parameter tweaks.

You can certainly do parameter tweaks to any preset and it will not copy the waveform. Montage has a Fender Telecaster guitar sampled. I could release a set of guitars with my own Telecaster sample. This would not be using factory samples. This doesn't mean it says anything about how presets and their waveforms work.

There's an organ set out there that uses its own B3 samples and not presets. The "Killer B" set for XF and previous uses zero samples and all presets. Similar to what could be done on your own by only parameter manipulation. "Killer B" was a set that sold well - people dug it. So having a pro tweak internal sounds can go a long way.

... if you want to keep the piano on this set but not the rest - then deleting the CS80, CP1, Mark V, Mark I, etc. would clear out lots of room. The Moessieurs site shows how Joel didn't need lots of content on the set so he canned it. Follow the link below to see what he did. Note the "TX" and other FM-X based content need not be cleared out as it should use zero sample memory if purely an FM-X Performance. I haven't gone through the set with a fine tooth comb.

http://www.moessieurs.com/wojtek-olszak-pack.html