Hi sidd,

Thanks for asking that question. You explained it very well, and I, too, am wondering the same thing.

I was thinking of selling my Motif XF6 in order to buy a Montage, and like you, assumed all of Motif's
Performances were in the Montage. If that is the case, I may not need an arranger. If it doesn't have
the Performances, then, I'll have to buy an arranger, too. This will make it very expensive.

Without Motif's Performances on board, I'd be getting the Montage only for its acoustic and orchestral
sounds. Maybe, I'll get a Tyros 5, instead. It has great acoustic sounds, plus the "Ensemble" feature, and
it's an arranger.

By the way, this is my very first post. Hope we get a positive answer. 🙂

I think you both have valid points of view, however, the "new" keyboard being the "old" keyboard thing does not serve the reason for making the new keyboard. If the Montage did everything the Motif XF did down to the very Voices and Performances, what is reason to make the new keyboard?

You can simply keep your Motif XF. We anticipate it has another good 5-7 years of work left in it. With its ability to load new content, and it's fundamental feature set, it is by no means 'replaced' by the Montage for everyone.

The Montage is our new flagship, it is a synthesizer; the focus is different. And I think that was very much, by design.

I've actually gone through the process of reconstructing a Motif XF four Part Performance, just for my own edification and to suffer through it, so that when I recommend to someone that it can be done (and it can), I know, first hand, what a pain it is to make that happen. I could launch into a explanation here about how Performances are made in the XF, and given the major changes in how the architecture of Montage is constructed why they just don't automatically work, but that wouldn't help your situation, or solve anything.

Mike's idea about moving toward Tyros5 is probably on point, if the "arranger type" accompaniment Performances are essential for what you do.
Montage is less a standalone Music Production product, like the XF, where you could, all alone, create music to accompany yourself. The Montage is a Music Synthesizer focused on the live performer, on stage, playing in a band with other human beings.
Of course, both products overlap into other areas - but the primary focus has changed.

And while true, not everyone needs Motion Control, we are betting that Motion Control is a big enough improvement to find its own "new" audience.
Now all that said, the question "1. Is it possible for Yamaha to include the old Motif performances in a future firmware upgrade?" I would doubt very much that, if a solution was offered, they would bother to write it into the firmware. I say that because the way that Montage deals with Parts and Performances is fundamentally different enough - but we can ask. Seems all that would be necessary is a single USER file (it would represent hundreds of man hours of work) to make the new keyboard sound exactly like the old keyboard.

User Performances (those that the user made on the XF) maybe an even bigger problem, given the fact that XF Performances DO NOT include the Voice data itself, only a pointer to what occupies a specific user bank location. Anyway, we'll ask.

I hope you understand in all of this WHY that was not a focus. The VOICE library (the core programming from the Motif series) is the starting point of the AWM2 engine in Montage, this gives you all the sounds, some new substitution were made, and some brand new ones added. The PERFORMANCES, which depends on the Voices being in the exact same location as in the previous synth, is just not possible... Voice mode was eliminated.

I'm not saying it is impossible, just that it was not anyone's priority to make this happen. The programming as you've noticed is less 'traditional arranger' like and more geared toward music in which synthesizers rule. Clearly a different focus. I don't think, to Mike's point, that anyone will confuse Montage Multi-Part Performances with a Tyros; while the discussion about Motif XF vs. Tyros5 rages on for the past five/six years.

Bottom line: we'll attempt to find an official answer to the question about porting factory XF Performances over to Montage.
Encouragement: new keyboard, new opportunity, figure out the number of Performances you actually used, in attempting to recreate them you will undoubtedly realize that you have a unique opportunity to IMPROVE them.

By the way "how many" are we talking about? ... certainly no one wants all 512 factory Performances

Thank you for your answer, Bad Mister. 🙂

I've been intrigued by a video put up by Yamaha Corporation on YouTube. Perhaps, you can shed some light on it. From 3:08 - 3:50, the musician (Manuele Montesanti) is seen playing a jazz piece on Montage. I just assumed he was using a Performance, like on the Motif XF. You can hear drums, bass, piano....

I'd like to know; how is he able to play this multi-part Performance if the Montage is not designed to play Performances like the Motif?

Thank you for your consideration. 🙂

Since the Montage is having all waveforms, voices and arpeggios of the Motif and above that it has a similar structure, I see no reason why any performance can't be rebuilt identically in the Montage. I play in several bands and have to remake approx. 70 performances as a starting point using the Montage instead of the Motif. Since i always play in master-mode, i have te remake 128 of them too. I count on it that this can be done "quiet" easily, at least in a couple of weekends. I don't understand why it should be difficult for Yamaha make the standard Motif-performances available for the montage.

I understand, Quint. It's possible, but you have to build up the performances yourself. The guy in the video must've done the same thing. It's not an actual Performance already in the Montage.

Thanks for clarifying!

Hello Mr. Clendeninn:

Thank you for your response to my initial post.

First, I think it easier if we leave the Tyros out of the equation, if for no other reason than simplicity's sake. I actually owned a Tyros 4 for some time, and I always found the Motif performances-despite being only four parts-to be more interesting to work with. Tyros 4 was a great board, but I think it is aimed a a different demographic.

Returning to the Montage, I understand that it a new approach for synthesis, and the abundance of new features demonstrates this quite clearly. However, Yamaha did rely on the Motif XF for the voices and arpeggios, and stated as much in the promotional videos and materials. Yamaha was quite clear about the features that were not present on the Montage, namely the full featured sequencer, pattern based sequencing, and sampling, so all of us who purchased the Montage knew that these features would not be present. I, for one, like the simplified approach on the Montage. It is much easier to use than the Motif XF ever was. What Yamaha was not clear about was the absence of the Motif XF performances, which I consider a backbone of the Motif and Montage. Montage has its own quantity of multi timbral performances, so surely the engineers at Yamaha see the value of these combinations not merely as a way to show of the instrument's capabilities, but as powerful tools in the synthesis process.

Nor have I ever viewed the Motif or the Montage as arrangers. If I had wanted that full functionality I would have walked the Tyros route. However, as I mentioned earlier, a four part performance, say with a guitar, bass, drums, and piano, is a powerful starting point for getting creative, or finding inspiration, as I recall as an emphasis inthe Motif XF promotional materials. I think it just as useful as a powerful 8 part, motion-controlled Montage performance.

From your post, I can tell that it is not easy to attempt to recreate a Motif performance, and if it causes you suffering, it will likely do me in entirely if I try. I realize that the "voice" mode is gone from the Motif but since the Motif "voices" are now single part "performances" (am I understanding that correctly?) on the Montage, it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that someone on the development team could put together a file that replicates or at least resembles those four part performances on the Motif. Those could then point themselves to the new positioning of the old Motif voices on the Montage.

Also, please don't misunderstand my comments on motion control synthesis. I think it is a very powerful tool, and was one of the reasons that I purchased the Montage. What I said was that there was a place for it, and there are many other places, such as the very nice "Two Acoustic Guitars" and CFX piano on the Montage that don't need it all.

I think I can speak for many on this forum when I state that having those "old" Motif performances on the Montage would only enhance the usability and enjoyment of the latter. I do hope you'll look into the matter a bit further because with everything already on board the Montage except certain combinations of sounds, it seems doable.

Regarding your question about which performances I was referring to, you are correct in your assessment that no one uses all 512 performances. In my case, I probably used about 20 or so, mainly the jazz combos and the acoustic guitar combos. The Jazz Trio and 2 Guitars for Mrs. Robinson come to mind, though I would have to consult the Motif Data List if you want more specificity than that.

Thanks,
Sidd

Hello Mike:

Having owned a Tyros 4 (and other arrangers as well), the Motif XF, and now a Montage, I can tell you that they are all fine instruments. If you are a one man band, the Tyros is tprobably the way to go, but there are a lot of good software options available now for a whole lot less if you are comfortable with the computer being your primary instrument.

You will definitely enjoy the Montage. It sounds better than the XF, which I thought sounded really good, and it is a lot easier to use. That's a big plus for me. Let's hope that our moderator will be able to get an answer from Yamaha regarding the XF performances. I can survive without them, but it sure was a nice well into which to dip the bucket when looking for an idea or two.

Sidd

I would like to add my support to the request that the Motif XF performances be added to the Montage.

sidd wrote:

Hello Mike:

Having owned a Tyros 4 (and other arrangers as well), the Motif XF, and now a Montage, I can tell you that they are all fine instruments. If you are a one man band, the Tyros is tprobably the way to go, but there are a lot of good software options available now for a whole lot less if you are comfortable with the computer being your primary instrument.

You will definitely enjoy the Montage. It sounds better than the XF, which I thought sounded really good, and it is a lot easier to use. That's a big plus for me. Let's hope that our moderator will be able to get an answer from Yamaha regarding the XF performances. I can survive without them, but it sure was a nice well into which to dip the bucket when looking for an idea or two.

Sidd

SIdd,

I've never owned an arranger, but always wanted one. In 2011, I was going to buy a new Tyros 4. After trying the Motif XF, I changed my mind. The Motif sounded more professional, both sound-wise, and effects-wise. The performances did not sound as robotic, and they had a more "live" feel to them, compared to the Tyros 4's styles. So, I determined to buy the Motif first, and then add an arranger later on.

The most fun for me is playing with the Performances, and changing the arps to suit the music I'm playing. When I heard the Montage could have up to 8 arps running at the same time, I was excited, because the Motif's 3 arps plus a right hand voice felt a little incomplete. Now that I discover it doesn't have Performances, it's a let down. Personally, I don't care that it doesn't have Motif's 512 Performances, as long as there are new Performances. I'm talking about Jazz, Pop, Latin, etc. that play drums, bass, guitar...up to 7 parts plus 1 sound for the main melody. This would make it sound like a full arrangement. I like some of the synth Performances of the Montage, but I prefer Performances made up of acoustic instrument sounds.

As far as software goes, I'm not at all into making music on a computer. I just don't have the brains or interest in it.

You said the Montage sounds better than the Motif, but I was wondering, since you've also had a Tyros 4, are the acoustic and orchestral sounds of the Montage better than the Tyros 4's SuperArticulation voices?

Thanks. 🙂

Well, I disagree about putting the same Performance content in the Montage. There simply would be no reason to repeat it. I fully appreciate what is being said. But to recreate the entire Motif XF in the Montage, Performance-by-Performance, would not have been a good use of the time and effort of the programming team - who, first, had to learn a new architecture, then find unique ways to feature what was new about the engine. It was all looking forward into the light, not backward down the long dimly lit hallway to the "previously done". The new Performances are designed to show Motion Control and to show off new content in the Performances, not the same content that has been in the line since 2010.

Let me explain what the impact of this is - it is fairly obvious what Motion Control means in Electronic Dance Music, Techno, and some currently popular genres, where drum grooves are used to gate and duck pad sounds, and sweeping synth pads are flying around in rhythm to the beat, but Motion Control impacts solo acoustic instrument sounds that morph into ensembles. Take a solo Bassoon ("Bassoon 3") that via Motion Control becomes a wind ensemble. Or a "Wind Ensemble" that morphs into a synth pad. Solo instruments that come to life via Motion Control, the morphing of instruments where the Element, sans vibrato, is "knitted" onto the naturally played vibrato as you raise the mod wheel. The "swell" voices where it is not just velocity that is used to animate the changes, it's playable and extremely organic feeling to play. Motion Control impacts piano sounds that dynamically change in color in response to movement, guitar sounds that evolve. It can be subtle, it can be dynamic... The Choir/Strings/Pipe organ morph is one of the most dynamic uses of Motion Control. So it is not just for dance music, it is not just for arpeggios, Motion Control is about movement in sound, subtle to dramatic.

The Montage is a full fledged synthesizer. Tyros has still has some technology that is still very advanced, the Ensemble Voices, the mono/poly thing it does, it's seemingly unlimited Element architecture (but Tyros is generally a non-user editable technology); Montage is editable - it's a hands-on synthesizer, and this is the KEY difference.

I did mention reconstructing the exact Performance from a Motif XF is tedious, and therefore the mention of pain, because you "have to" track down very specific data, (and there is a lot of it) because you are attempting to look backwards and meticulous recreate something. However, creating your own new Performances is not tedious, not as painful, and this is because you are looking forward down a well lit hallway to your own creations. I find the two tasks quite different. Instead of looking for a particular Arpeggio to place on a particular button, you are actually driven by your own creative energy in trying to find what works. Totally different experience, hopefully you will try out for yourself!!!!

If you had zero input invested in creating the Performances you used in Motif XF, well then putting them back together should/will give you an opportunity to improve them. I know it is tedious because you are trying to get the "new" to sound exactly like the "old". And it is that goal that you will wear like a boat anchor around your neck. Some one assembling their own Performances "from scratch" will not carry that same burden.

On how the video might have been done...
The Montage has the ability to load a .mid file as a Montage Song. Presumably you have either purchased a MIDI file or you have assembled the data yourself using your favorite DAW... You can prepare Song&Performance and have 64 of them in memory.

For example, I have a Performance that I created:
Parts 1-8 are individual solo instruments which I feature, one at a time; I play each one as I select that Part. (Muted trumpet, soprano sax, jazz guitar, vibraphone, flute, etc) The associated Song file plays drums, bass, acoustic piano... my jazz trio backing band (assembled in Cubase and exported as a .mid file). When I recall this setup and press the Play button on the transport, it takes me to the Play/Rec screen - when I press Play, the file plays my backing rhythm section Parts 9, 10 and 11... I select a lead sound by pressing the Part Select buttons [1]-[8]... You can seamlessly transition among the eight lead sounds.

There are several ways to create what is seen in the video. You could create a Performance exactly as you could in the Motif XF using the built-in arpeggios. Each Performance can store at maximum 8 Keyboard Controlled Parts (that's the maximum you can play/control at once, each Part can have access to 8 arpeggios versus the 5 SF1-SF5 buttons in the XF. In such a setup Parts not under Keyboard Control are still available as individually selectable, playable instruments (one at a time).

The Play/Rec function on Montage also allows you to stream .wav files directly from a USB drive connected to the TO DEVICE port.

Each will have to find their own way. perhaps some one is actually reprogramming the Motif XF Performances, (I'll find out) and they may become available for download. We certainly would encourage those who recreate them to share... "Sound sharing" is one of the goals of this site (as long as it does not include "for sale" content). Even if you don't own one of the mini-key wonders (reface CP/CS/DX/YC) it's hard not to notice the more than 3500 User programmed content that is available for free download in the Soundmondo sound share area of this site. So the hundreds of man hours of work spread across the thousands of Montage owners will chop down the amount of work per individual.

With the hundreds of new Montage owners every week, we could tackle the Motif XF Performances in no time. But if you are expecting a "lookup table" that does it automatically... (Hmm, I think it would have happened if it was feasible - one exists for XF Voices). But as I offered to find out.. I will, I'll just have to wait until I get word. It may not be easy to understand WHY it's not that easy to do, but trust me there are fundamental differences between XF and Montage that come into play.

Thanks, Bad Mister.

Your response is enlightening. I can see how exciting and different from the Motif Motion Control is, being able to morph sounds in real time. I can't wait to actually try one. Here in Quebec (Montreal area), no store has a Montage yet. Hopefully soon.

I have a question: at Yamaha.com, under Montage specs, it says there are approximately 1,900 Performances. Can you give me a rough idea how many are acoustic? Meaning, those which contain drums, bass, guitar, etc.? I'm not looking for an exact number, as long as there are some. Would you say there are about 25%, 50%.....? Performances that function like the Motif's, like no. A08 "Andy Lucia" (under World/Latin), or no. C13 "Free Fall" (under Rock/Classic), etc.

Thanks very much for your time and patience! 🙂

Dear Mr. Clenendon:

I am posting this message to see what progress, if any, you have been able to make in regards to recreating Motif XF performances in the Montage. I was abroad for some months, and have only recently been able to sit down with the Montage. While there are numerous advantages to owning the Montage over the Motif, I am still troubled by the lack of inclusion of the Motif XF performances. I like some of the new performances in the Montage, but they are not a substitute for most of the XF performances.

I think I would be satisfied if there was a way to recreate the 4 part performances of the Montage within the Montage. So far, I have found no way of doing this. I sold the MotifXF some time ago, so I am unable to see what voices and arpeggios were used in the XF's perfornaces. I have looked at the data list for the Motif XF, but that list does not give any pertinent data as to the voices or arpeggios used in the creation of an XF performance.

The best option would be to have a loadable library of the 512 XF performances for the Montage. If this is something that is not a priority for Yamaha, then as a secondary course of action, would it not be possible to create a data list that covers the XF performances, including the voice, arpeggios, and other relevant data? Using this, I could recreate the particular performances that I find useful.

There are thousands of voices (or performances) within the Montage, and something like 10,000 arpeggios. This makes it extremely tedious to try and find complementary sound patches and arpeggios when starting from scratch. Morevoer, if I select a sub category within the Performance search field, and chose "rock", for example, the category is empty. At least if there were a few set templates within each subcategory, then that would be a starting point.

For those of us who use, for example, jazz or rock performances as a starting point for creative work, their absence is very obvious in the Montage. And, in doing the research before purchasing the Montage, there was no indication that the XF performances would be absent. In fact, the statement that all of the XF voices were present on the Montage-while technically correct-certainly can cause a reasonable person to infer that the performances would be present as well.

I would appreciate your input on this matter. Thanks

Sidd

The Montage is not a Motif, it's simply built upon the same foundation.
It's a fact that you can recreate any Motif XF Performance in Montage, all the sounds and Arps are there.

See my post here where you can download "Bop til u drop"

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/performance-parts-9-16#reply-10343

If you work through going menu-by-menu through a Motif XF Performance - you can match up the settings between the Motif and Montage without much trouble. It's a lot of work since there are so many parameters in AWM2 so it takes a while to "extract" from your old keyboard (assuming you still have it) and then build-from-scratch the Montage version.

But given the engine is the same (AWM2) - there should be no problems getting everything mapped over except the time effort.

Related, I had a MO6 performance that was not available on Montage that I (painfully) manually constructed on Montage.

Someone could come along and code up an app for this that would get you, in most cases, a usable facsimile.

Would be nice to publish the file formats for Motif XF + Montage in order to enable the community to code up some nice helper apps.