I'd say that is predominantly Filter.

If I were approaching this, I'd be thinking Low Pass to remove a little top end, then High Pass to cut some Bass/Growl/Darkness.

Then you also need to factor in Amp Envelope, and maybe there is a touch of FEG as well.

I would probably Category audition through all:-

Brass - Synth
Syn Lead
Pad/Choir
Syn Comp

Find the closest sounding Preset then reverse engineer it.

Incidentally...

The sound is very similar to

Yazoo - Don't Go

Which probably puts Vince Clarke in the frame for making the sound and likely on a Sequential Prophet 5 or Sequential Pro-One. (EDIT: Get The Balance Right released in 1983... I remembered it being earlier, my mistake. Anyway Vince had left the band by then)

Its worth noting because the Montage/MODX has a collection of "P5" Saw samples. So this could be a possible starting point.

The sound is certainly "Analogue" in origin, and not FM because the DX7 had not yet been released when the song was recorded. (EDIT: DX7 also Released in 1983 - date unknown. If DX7 was released Jan 1st 1983, It is still unlikely the DX7 was used. Unless Alan Wilder had bought one, instantly learned how to program it, and squeezed it into the recording session in the space of a few weeks - the single was released Jan 31st 1983)

But don"t let that stop you choosing FM-X if it gets you better results.

My bad... Vince Clarke had left Depeche Mode by then... but anyway... sounds are similar.

Turn up video resolution to 720p, and watch on a big screen....

https://youtu.be/XR4YvCN7r8E

Reverse Engineering Example

I did Performance Category Search Main: Brass Sub: Synth and just started playing through them all one by one.

I very quickly found several candidates. It helps if you play the same notes/pitch as on the record to get the right feel for the Timbre. First note is D# 3.

For this example, I heard a similar timbre/resonance in Perf "Tacky Brass AF1&2".

With AF1 and AF2 OFF, you will see there is only 1 Element/Wave in play "OB Brassy Pad St".

There are also a bunch of envelopes and effects in play. You can either reduce all these to Zero (negate effect envelopes, Ins, Var, Rev, LFOs etc).... OR.... take note of the wave name and load it into an AWM2 INIT.

Change the Filter to LPF12+HPF12. Play around with LPF Cutoff, HPF Cutoff and Resonance to get the right tone.

Then build in some Amp Envelope and Filter Envelope (slight Open and Close for Brass Attack). Again you can take note of existing AEG and FEG settings from other Presets, or you could use the "Tacky Brass" settings and tweak those.

5 minutes work.

You could take more time searching for better examples in Cat Search, and spend longer tweaking if you want perfect accuracy.

Hello Anthony,

thanks so much for Your ideas to solve this problem.

It is a nice idea to use the Prophet Saws to make this sound happend.

Thanks for the video link. I will ask my wife to tell me what is on the screen because I'm blind. It is for me not possible to see what is on the screen.

But my idea is to make this work with FM-X engine. The engine is so powerful and I think I can realize that with it.

I will experiment with the filter section and the FEG too.:D 🙂

Rainer

Good luck! Happy Hunting 😀

You have grabbed my interest. I am in awe that despite being blind you are not afraid to tackle the complexities of FM!! 😀

Here's some more discovery...

See Preset "The Synth Brass 2". This is pretty much ready to go.

Remove (OFF) all FX...Ins, Var, Rev.

You have 1x AWM2 Part, and 2x FM-X Parts (2x Stereo Pairs).

Using the Mix Screen or the Faders, you will see that Part 1 (AWM2) adds the Brass Hit... i.e. Top End, Brightness.

You can fade in as much or as little of Part 1 as desired.

So all you need now is a suitable FM-X Part to replace Part1... leaving you with an All FM-X Performance.

I dug a little deeper and noticed in many "Brass" FM-X Presets, there are some common "Snippets" of Algorithms that pop up quite a lot. Take a look at Algorithm 23, notice the arrangement of Op7 and Op8 for example.

It is a basic 2 Op stack, with feedback on Op7 (Modulator). Increasing the level of Op7 (within limits or it just goes to noise) increases the Brightness of its contribution to the Mix of Carrier Ops 1,2 and 6. In the Free Montage Expanded Library there is a Preset called "Dark FM Stereo Brass" where I first noticed this.

I'm still a beginner, but noticing these "common" FM building blocks helps me understand how the sounds are made. I will start looking at other "Brass" FM-X Presets to see if there are any that let me increase brightness by changing Op values via Assign Knobs or SuperKnob and take note of what they are changing.

Of course you still have the basic filter options on top of that (LPF, HPF cutoffs and resonance).

Let me know how you get on.

Tony

Rainer, you might be way passed this video, which is a new introduction to FM, using a DX1 which was the marquee FM synth of all time. It starts slow, and goes through things in a deliberately demonstrative manner. Quite enjoyable, I thought, despite being just the basics, to hear things described, explained and demonstrated in an immediate, sequential manner by an expert presenter: https://youtu.be/YV9vQGqoO5c

Hello Tony,
hello Andrew,

thanks so much for Your response.

The Synth Clip thing is a well done explanation to learn a lot of synthesis.

One thing I find out in FM-X is that is not possible to change the panning of the carriers. So it is only workable with effect section to get a brighter voicing. It's not good I think. If I want to do more with stereo with the Brass thing I can only use the AWM2-Section to bring up this great Brass voice.

I will send a idea to Ideascale that brings up the idea to have a chance to place the carriers different ways in stereo field.

If we had this function I think it is possible to get nearly the same sound as it is in the original recording of Depeche Mode. And it needs not a new synth-Section that is lot discuss in some threads (VA-synthesis).

I experiment a little bit with the filters but nothing works fine yet.

If I have a new version of the Performance I will send it to Soundmondo.

Rainer

Carriers can be panned all together at the FM-X Part level in the Common (Part) section. If you want some carriers panned one way and some another - then split the Part into two (or more) so carriers of a different pan position relative to the other carriers have their own Part. You can just copy the Part and then set the level to 0 of each carrier appropriately to "split" your original Part. If you just want to modulate the pan position and/or pan all of the carriers together - then no split is necessary.

Jason, this kind of obfuscation through misdirection is grossly beneath you.

Hello Jason,

I put now the idea online.

That is not the way I want this work. I want to have the same chance to put Carriers in one Part in different pan positions. If that is possible it works the same way as it does in AWM2-section.

So we get a good way to realize the Analog workflow. And from now You will be able to use the effects other way like Mini-Filter etc. and do not need Chorus etc. to make a sound brighter.

And sometime You need more than 16 Parts if we work this way You describe it it takes a lot of ressources.

Rainer

Andrew: I'm here to help. I help to the best of my ability without any compensation or reward. I do it for two reasons - because in the past I was helped in my start with using this almost painfully difficult to use hardware and I'm paying that help forward. Secondly, helping does keep my chops up for using my own equipment as I provide the help.

I don't know what you're driving at. I haven't hidden anything. Carriers can't be panned individually. So - if panning individually is what you're after - you have to apply a workaround that burns (at least) a part. Rainer understands the price and made a request to have carriers individually assignable to the stereo field. That's a good coin to toss into the wishing well - but for now you've got to split your carriers up between multiple Parts. That's how to get it done. It works as long as you don't run out of Part slots in 1-8 assuming you're using the keyboard in a normal (i.e. reasonable) way. The "unreasonable" way would expand the amount of Parts to 1-16 but then you'd have to bring in another MIDI controller or jump through other hoops.

When I responded - I wasn't quite sure what the goal of individual carrier vs. individual pan positions was. However, my assumption was that the goal was to pan carriers into different positions in the stereo field - and I believe that was on point.

Helping others to realize the limitations and capabilities isn't beneath me - nor do I hide the "ugly". Happy new year.

Regards FM-X Stereo and Panning.

Each FM-X Part, in a sense, is equivalent to 1x AWM2 Element, in the respect that it has 1 Audio output.

Although there may be multiple Carriers in a Part (each providing a sound) these are audio mixed down to a single "master" audio output. The relative mix is governed by the Carrier Volume Levels.

This FM-X "Master" can be Centre Panned meaning it appears in both Left and Right Channels.

There are also Random, Alternate and Scaling Pan options that can be used to move the Audio Left-> Right and Right->Left as you play in real time.

There are also some Panning Insert Effects that can be used at no extra Part Cost... Auto Pan, Cross Delay etc.

Regarding FM-X Stereo Pairs.

Yes, they "burn" 2 Part Slots. But, they only "burn" 2 Notes (1 each) of Polyphony. FM- X in this respect is sometimes the wisest choice.

Very often you will see FM-X Stereo Pairs in Preset Performances, with one Panned Left, the other Right. On the surface they look identical, but if you dig deeper there are often subtle differences, e.g. Detunes, AEGs, Carrier Levels etc. These subtleties help deepen the Stereo Image and make it more interesting. You will see exactly the same methods employed on AWM2 Element "Stereo Pairs".

Like anything in this world, there is always a limit. 8 Parts provides a lot of leg room as Synths go, but it is still a limit you need to be aware of, and work within, so you need to plan accordingly.

It doesn't take many novice roadblocks before you learn to employ "conservation of resources" techniques. Particularly when building "Multi-Instrument, Multi-Timbral" performances of your own. For example - I recently built an "everything under one roof" Performance for ALL the Keyboard sections in Pink Floyds Shine On You Crazy Diamond. Usually the first thing you learn is to jettison unecessary sounds ( key clicks, motor noise, AF1 & AF2 sounds etc). The second is don't impose personal "additional" confinements, for example only using FM-X. My philosophy is "If it sounds good, it is good". The Synth provides many means to the same end.

Example, I found myself fixated on using AWM2 "String Machine" elements to create Pink Floyd sounds (They used a Solina String Machine). I wasted hours and could never get it so sound right. But there was a Preset "3 Osc Strings" ready to go... up and running in under 5 minutes.

Regarding Timbre or Brightness.
Two things come to mind...

1) Filters.
2) FM-X Design approach.

Regarding Filters. Earlier on I explained, I could set the Brightness on some FM Brass presets by using the onboard filters. I note you used an Insert Effect "Mini Filter". The filters I was describing are not effects. You will find them in the Edit Part-Common-Pitch/Filter screen... various LPF, HPF and BP Filters, with associated Filter Envelope Generators (FEG). The FEG automatically opens and closes the filter giving you a bright attack, and a warmer decay.

Regarding FM-X Design Approach. You could write a Bible on this subject, but suffice it to say... there are many ways to skin a rabbit.

For example, from Initial (INIT) settings you could attempt to create an "acoustic" brass instrument (e.g. a Trumpet) or you could attempt to create an Analogue Synth RAW Oscillator or multiple Oscillators (e.g. a Sequential Prophet 5).

You can see these two different approaches by examining the FM Presets. On the "acoustic" side you may see programmed "instant bright attack" for a Trumpet or slower "noisy breath" for a French Horn. Detailed.

On others you will see an Analogue Synth approach... create the equivalence of Saw and Pulse Width oscillators (actually just creating an appropriate Harmonic Spectrum), mix them, then send them through a Filter and Envelopes (classic Subtractive Synthesis).

One general critiscism of early FM Synths was they were too bright and glassy, and did not have the warmth and girth of Analogue Synths. The sound designers on Montage/MODX seem to have been given a remit to prove that FM-X is capable of producing "Analogue Warmth". To this extent, they seem to have overcooked it, such that there is no brightness at all on some of the "brass" presets (Tubas vs Trumpets :p ). A Filter removes Brightness (upper harmonics), but is useless if there is no Brightness to begin with.

But, FM is still inherently bright. The secret is to spot and "remove" the Dark switches... easier said than done. Best method is to trawl the FM-X presets and study the differences. They all use different algorithms, but you will see some common building building blocks (or techniques) between the different algorithms.

The other "switch" to watch out for is actually the Filter (not an FM-X parameter). For example, you listen to an FM-X Part and it sounds too Dark. You immediately assume it is of no use to you. But on closer inspection you find the FM-X is actually Very Bright but is artificially darkened with a very low Filter Cutoff. Or it may just be the choice of Filter. These are your low hanging fruits. So always check the Filter.