Posted by: Toby

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By using 'Mid' you can bring in a parameter, or group of parameters for almost any desired portion of the super knob range and can bring them in quickly, or slowly as needed.

i still don’t get it. I means, it is fingers or foot that turn the super knob, for exemple I programme one part to be triggered in the first quarter of SK rotation. This part come and go. This quarter range is a little short for a nice control of the volume but I cannot program a wider range because another part use the super knob and I don’t want overlapping these part. Is this «  middle » point can help for that kind of issue?

Also I was thinking, the  value of SK have increased dramatically ( I suppose it is same for all knobs or not? )and that should be great but, the SP knob don’t have a wider circumference , then is that mean that you have to turn it much more accurately and so I am not sure you can take advantage of that improvement and for user like me that trigger SK exclusively by pedal control, I almost never touch the SK, I will need a new pedal with a new mechanical action and I suppose a higher definition of the information send that take advantage of that, this super pedal doesn’t exist, is it? Apart for these hardware issue, specially for foot control, still this increase of definition will give smoother transition?

This quarter range is a little short for a nice control of the volume but I cannot program a wider range because another part use the super knob and I don’t want overlapping these part

The Super Knob is a 'performance level' control - not a part level control. It can't be used to turn parts on or off - you would use scenes to do that. Program scene 1 to only use part 2 and 4 and scene 2 to only use part 1 and 2, and so on. The scene can enable/disable keyboard control for the parts so that those parts either sound or don't sound when you play the keys.

But if you don't want a part to be controlled by the Super Knob then don't assign any of that part's knobs as destinations for a common knob. Just remember that even when a part isn't sounding (keyboard control is OFF) the Super Knob will still be twiddling that part's knobs if they are destinations for the Super Knob.

So if you have one or more knobs of multiple parts assigned as destinations for one or more common knobs then the Super Knob will control the associated parameters of ALL of them whether they are sounding or not.

Is this « middle » point can help for that kind of issue?

No - using your foot on a pedal is NOT a good way to break the motion of the Super Knob into several different, discrete, ranges of motion.

The doc page I referred to has an example of a typical use case for 'Left', 'Mid' and 'Right' for the super knob. Did you look at that?

You haven't really ever stated an 'issue' that you need to solve. You just seem to be saying 'what about A', 'what about B', etc without really having a specific need. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But if you DO have a particular use case you are concerned about create a new thread and tell everyone what it is you need to be able to do. Then we can help you find the best way to do it.

There is often more than one way to do something on the instrument but sometimes a given instrument isn't designed to do certain things, or at least not to do them well.

Also I was thinking, the value of SK have increased dramatically ( I suppose it is same for all knobs or not? )

Yes - it is the same 0 - 1023 for the Super Knob, the 8 common knobs and the 8 knobs for each part.

and that should be great but, the SP knob don’t have a wider circumference , then is that mean that you have to turn it much more accurately

Knobs and sliders aren't designed to be able to be moved quickly from one specific position to another other than full MIN to full MAX. When programming values using the knobs though you CAN press SHIFT while you turn the knob and the value will change in smaller increments. See page 567 of the operations doc. Works for the Super Knob also.

[SHIFT] + Knob 1–8

Switches Knobs to high-precision mode or in smaller
increments (slows down value changes).
Convenient when making fine adjustments to values.

 

So they aren't really appropriate if you need to be able to change from 87 to 428, then to 142 and then somewhere else. That isn't the use case for sliders or knobs.

They are designed for use cases where you need to transition smoothly from one general position to another general position the way you change volume on your radio. You don't change your radio volume from one specific value to another - you turn the knob until the volume reaches the level you want it to be.

You should use automation when you need transitions to/from specific values or transitions at specific times. That is where arpeggios, motion sequences and morphing come in. You can program them to do those transitions automatically.

I would, again, suggest that if you have a SPECIFIC use case or need create a thread and explain what it is you want to do. Then someone can help you find the best way to do it on your instrument.

Posted by: Toby

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The Super Knob is a 'performance level' control - not a part level control.

That is not correct, I program mainly the SK for controlling the volume of parts/ elements as I want to control multiple instruments of symphonic orchestra or whatever, that come and go in the smoothest way I can. This for live playing where you are the unique musician on stage with a singer. that is why I am interesting about these new functionalities of the SK and the increase of resolution but also in concrete way, how I could get benefits from that thru hardware, specially foot pedal linked to SK.

I program mainly the SK for controlling the volume of parts/ elements as I want to control multiple instruments of symphonic orchestra or whatever, that come and go in the smoothest way I can.

That is EXACTLY what I mean by 'performance level' control. Those 'multiple instruments' comprise the performance.

You can certainly program the super knob to manipulate only one element of one part but that isn't what it was designed for.

specially foot pedal linked to SK.

For that use case I don't see how the increased super knob resolution is going to be of much benefit.

Use a MIDI monitor (e.g. MIDI-OX) while you manipulate the foot pedal and you will see some rather large jumps in values due to the limited control most people have of their actual foot position. And I'd be surprised if anyone could hit a specific value (e.g. 73) consistently even with practice.

Posted by: Toby

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It can't be used to turn parts on or off

I didn’t say that at all. And I never intend using SK for that purpose on off, the only purpose is smooth transition, but may be my English is a little limited?

I was saying come and go, not on/off but I understand that can be confusing. But anyway I arrived to the conclusion that for I could get a smoothers transition in a small coarse( a quarter of the coarse of SK)  it is more a question of hardware interface, circumference of the physical SK or mechanical accuracy of foot controller. I thought maybe this middle point could help, I had no idea how this could be but I don t think so from what I understand. I am creating a new post for the montage M and foot pedal controller.

Thank you Toby for information you provide generously.

Posted by: Daniel

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Thank you Toby for information you provide generously.

I understand what you mean,  you need greater resolution, or finer control with "bigger" Sweeps of the Super Knob. 

I don't have a Montage M, but feel fairly certain Yamaha didn't just arbitrarily divvy up its sweep into three distinct ranges, unless you specifically set it like that (i.e. its a new option or feature).

If it's anything like the original Montage/MODX,  you need to set the "Ratio" (aka Depth on most other synths) in the Control Assign Edit Menus (next to/near to the Curve Type and Polarity settings). 

Long Story short... a Lower Ratio results in more Fine Control. I'd suggest experimenting to find the setting where SuperKnob at Minimum is the absolute minimum you want, and Super Knob at Max, is the absolute Maximum you want.   This sometimes means balancing Ratios between the Part Level Assigns and the Performance Level Assigns.

Obvious Candidates here are either Volume (Normal vs Solo) or Pitch (sliding Musical Key Changes)... it's easier to just spin from Min to Max, or if using an Expression Pedal to control Super Knob... Off to On. 

Posted by: Antony

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Posted by: Daniel

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Thank you Toby for information you provide generously.

I understand what you mean,  you need greater resolution, or finer control with "bigger" Sweeps of the Super Knob. 

I don't have a Montage M, but feel fairly certain Yamaha didn't just arbitrarily divvy up its sweep into three distinct ranges, unless you specifically set it like that (i.e. its a new option or feature).

If it's anything like the original Montage/MODX,  you need to set the "Ratio" (aka Depth on most other synths) in the Control Assign Edit Menus (next to/near to the Curve Type and Polarity settings). 

Long Story short... a Lower Ratio results in more Fine Control. I'd suggest experimenting to find the setting where SuperKnob at Minimum is the absolute minimum you want, and Super Knob at Max, is the absolute Maximum you want.   This sometimes means balancing Ratios between the Part Level Assigns and the Performance Level Assigns.

Obvious Candidates here are either Volume (Normal vs Solo) or Pitch (sliding Musical Key Changes)... it's easier to just spin from Min to Max, or if using an Expression Pedal to control Super Knob... Off to On.  

ratio have limitation with preset curves. For exemple if you want controlling the volume that start from zero, at a minimal ratio, it won’t start at zero. Then you need a customized user curve but with only 32 user curves, memory have been exploded since a long time. In the another way, if you don’t want the volume reach a too high range at high ratio, you need a customized curve. I met commonly this inconvenient when programming and try to reuse user curves but it need alway some minor adjustment that you cannot do without taking the risk to broke balance of another performance witch use these curves.

Posted by: Daniel

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Posted by: Antony

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Posted by: Daniel

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Thank you Toby for information you provide generously.

I understand what you mean,  you need greater resolution, or finer control with "bigger" Sweeps of the Super Knob. 

I don't have a Montage M, but feel fairly certain Yamaha didn't just arbitrarily divvy up its sweep into three distinct ranges, unless you specifically set it like that (i.e. its a new option or feature).

If it's anything like the original Montage/MODX,  you need to set the "Ratio" (aka Depth on most other synths) in the Control Assign Edit Menus (next to/near to the Curve Type and Polarity settings). 

Long Story short... a Lower Ratio results in more Fine Control. I'd suggest experimenting to find the setting where SuperKnob at Minimum is the absolute minimum you want, and Super Knob at Max, is the absolute Maximum you want.   This sometimes means balancing Ratios between the Part Level Assigns and the Performance Level Assigns.

Obvious Candidates here are either Volume (Normal vs Solo) or Pitch (sliding Musical Key Changes)... it's easier to just spin from Min to Max, or if using an Expression Pedal to control Super Knob... Off to On.  

ratio have limitation with preset curves. For exemple if you want controlling the volume that start from zero, at a minimal ratio, it won’t start at zero. Then you need a customized user curve but with only 32 user curves, memory have been exploded since a long time. In the another way, if you don’t want the volume reach a too high range at high ratio, you need a customized curve. I met commonly this inconvenient when programming and try to reuse user curves but it need alway some minor adjustment that you cannot do without taking the risk to broke balance of another performance witch use these curves.

 

I think you might not understand the Control Assign mechanism. 

Have a look at Unipolar vs Bipolar.  Bipolar will Both Reduce and Increase from whatever the initial Parameter Value is (e.g. Part Volume). 

If Part Volume is set to "33",  and it's Control Assign is set to Unipolar with a Positive Ratio,  then the Control Assign can only Increase the value of Part Volume,  e.g. 33 > 34 > 35.... >127.

If it's set to Bipolar,  then it can also "decrease" the Value.  In Bipolar Mode the "null" point (not increasing, not decreasing,  i.e. Part Volume = 33),  would be with the Control Assign set "in the middle",  in the case of an Assign Knob,  the Assign Knob would be set at "12 Noon"... straight up.  Rotating Counter Clock Wise will decrease the Part Volume, eventually to Zero. Rotating Clockwise will increase the Part Volume... eventually to 127 if the Ratio is high enough.  

Take note that Control Assigns Add or Subtract "Offsets".   

You'll notice a Control Assign in Unipolar, Positive Ratio will "add" an Offset Value of 0  to +127.  

A Control Assign in Bipolar will "subtract" or "add" Offset values...

-64 to 0 to +64 

Offsets change the "read" value of the parameter in the Tone Generator (Synth Engine). How much they change it by depends on the Ratio. 

Example:-

Part Level = 33

Bipolar Offset = +43  (Ratio = 1:1)

Value Read by Tone Generator = 33 + 43 = 76

Your Part Volume is now playing at Volume 76.

or

Part Level = 33

Bipolar Offset = -43

Value Read by Tone Generator = 33 - 43 = *0*

It's not "-10",  the value can't be less than "0" (Silent).  Offsets can't make a Parameter Value go below or above its min-max range (e.g.  0 - 127). 

Final point... you don't *need* a User Curve, or even a "fancy" curve.  Most of the time a default "Linear" curve  (it looks like a Triangle) will do. 

User Curves, and Non-Linear Curves are useful,  but that's moving into more advanced techniques. 

I'd recommend just messing around with Control Assigns on a "Scrap" Performance,  just to get the hang of it.  Keep the Reference Manual Open nearby.  The Control Assign System (which includes Super Knob, Motion Sequencing, and Expression Pedals) is very deep, and quite complex,  although it is very powerful.  Start small,  learn it in chunks. 

Many preset curves have one or more points or regions that supply a 0 offset and so if volume is 0 then the final result will still be 0 after offset.  You can assign multiple destinations to Volume and the end result will be the sum of all offsets.   This can impact the ability to achieve a 0 offset.

Also sliders may be moved which can change the volume value so the preset value is no longer 0 as originally programmed.  This factors in.

You don't have an M yet (neither do I).  The new M series has interesting new preset curves that reduce the need to use user curves in situations where the new presets suffice.

Thanks Antony, control assignment ,  I know all this very well and handle this very well too i think. And that’s why I know that I need user curves because of the lack and  nature of preset curves. User curve is for me also a straight way that make me win time, and if this could be accomplished with a screen pencil, then BINGO!  This the need I have and it is not universal I suppose…. When I want a volume start to zero and to volume xxx at the end of the coarse, only user curves provide me immediate solution. Sometimes the use of some presets curves can be near what I want,  but only sometimes.

Exemple of intricate volume curves