And I'm sure you've realized you can't create such user curves on Montage.

BUT - did you notice how some of those curves actually look like waveforms or envelopes?

And Montage DOES have something called 'Envelope Follower' and Bad Mister did an article about it some time ago and it includes a video.

https://yamahasynth.com/learn/montage-series-synthesizers/mastering-montage-11-envelope-follower/

You basically set up one part to produce the envelope/curve you want and then use that as the source for a Control Assign to control one, or more, parameters of another part.

Using the Envelope Follower you can use the output of a Part for modulating selectable parameters of any other part. This way you can transfer the movement or rhythm of a Part to other Parts

. . .

In the Controller Assign box you will find the sources named “Envelope Follower 1 – 18”.
The numbers 1 – 16 are assigned to the Parts 1 – 16, the numbers 17 + 18 to the A/D parts (L+R).

You can use ALL of the functionality of the envelope controls for the source part to shape the envelope that controls the other parts parameters.

The article has a link to a user file download that 16 live sets including the Envelope Follower example used.

When you get the source part envelope designed the way you want save that single part as a user performance. Then you can include that pre-designed part into other performances when you need that particular envelope.

That workflow is actually a good example of how to create a toolbox of components that you can use to build custom, complex performances without having to design everything from scratch everytime.

Posted by: Daniel

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Thanks Antony, control assignment ,  I know all this very well and handle this very well too i think. And that’s why I know that I need user curves because of the lack and  nature of preset curves. User curve is for me also a straight way that make me win time, and if this could be accomplished with a screen pencil, then BINGO!  This the need I have and it is not universal I suppose…. When I want a volume start to zero and to volume xxx at the end of the coarse, only user curves provide me immediate solution. Sometimes the use of some presets curves can be near what I want,  but only sometimes.

Advice here is free.

Based on what you've already written,  my estimation is that you have not fully grasped how the Control Assign System works. 

If doing it "your own way" works for you, then nobody is preventing you from doing that. 

However, when it doesn't work (as per your previous posts), it is practically impossible for others to provide any meaningful support,  if your methods are outside of the normal, design intended operation. 

Posted by: Antony

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Posted by: Daniel

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Thanks Antony, control assignment ,  I know all this very well and handle this very well too i think. And that’s why I know that I need user curves because of the lack and  nature of preset curves. User curve is for me also a straight way that make me win time, and if this could be accomplished with a screen pencil, then BINGO!  This the need I have and it is not universal I suppose…. When I want a volume start to zero and to volume xxx at the end of the coarse, only user curves provide me immediate solution. Sometimes the use of some presets curves can be near what I want,  but only sometimes.

 

Advice here is free.

Based on what you've already written,  my estimation is that you have not fully grasped how the Control Assign System works. 

If doing it "your own way" works for you, then nobody is preventing you from doing that. 

However, when it doesn't work (as per your previous posts), it is practically impossible for others to provide any meaningful support,  if your methods are outside of the normal, design intended operation. 

 

 Antony, could you tell me how you will manage this case with preset curve, I will be grateful if you provide a solution:

simple case,  juste a curve let say for volume part that go linear or exponential from zero to 70 ( of 127). It seems to me that for start at zero, I need 64 ratio of a bipolar curve but then I will get 127 at the end and I don’t want that. And if I need a more complicated curve that make in his coarse like a  0 to 60 to 20 to 70 to 30, then…. Another case: I need a curve that start at zero, go to 80 and finish at 30 and located in the last quarter of the coarse knob or in the first quarter and so on….tell me, I don’t pretend have full knowledge of montage, I learn something every day about my preferred beast. 🤔 

Try x/64=70/127

x=70*64/127 = 35ish

The way I usually figure this out is offset pitch with parameters where I know the values then use the curve and listen for the same pitch.

I understand the ratio calc but how does that map to an actual example?

The way I usually figure this out is offset pitch with parameters where I know the values then use the curve and listen for the same pitch.

An example would be nice if you have one.

The example I was starting with was a curve going from 0 to 70.  I think the rest could be calculated if that holds up.

But it's better, to me, to use pitch since you can hear in a lot better resolution than say almost any other destination.

I'm short on real world examples since I'm out of pocket with no keyboard.  Have several days still until I'm back.

But I can write something up later.  This is how I mapped out for myself what the math behind curves were at some point when values were important.

BTW: I think +32 gives you the maximum offset "at the end" so the math would not support the previous formula.  +64 will reach maximum offset when the source controller value is half way (64) and will stay at the ceiling for all values of the source controller's value 64-127.

All of this is Montage classic centric (for others reading) because the new M has different source controller ranges.

So I think a better unproven formula would be:

For targeting 70 ...

x/32 =70/127

x=70*32/127 = 17 ish

Posted by: Daniel

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simple case,  juste a curve let say for volume part that go linear or exponential from zero to 70 ( of 127). It seems to me that for start at zero, I need 64 ratio of a bipolar curve but then I will get 127 at the end and I don’t want that. And if I need a more complicated curve that make in his coarse like a  0 to 60 to 20 to 70 to 30, then…. Another case: I need a curve that start at zero, go to 80 and finish at 30 and located in the last quarter of the coarse knob or in the first quarter and so on….tell me, I don’t pretend have full knowledge of montage, I learn something every day about my preferred beast. 🤔 

 

I am assuming you want to adjust "Part Volume"  with either a Control Assign Knob, or otherwise, the SuperKnob.  

It's worth noting here, that the SuperKnob does not directly control Synth Parameters. The SuperKnob controls  1 or more Assign Knobs.  It's like a "Master Control" for moving multiple Assign Knobs. In other synths, it might be called a "Master Macro Control Knob".

Going forward, test this out on 1 Part, in a Single Part Performance. I strongly suggest you start with an AWM2 INIT. 

First you must Assign a Part "Assign Knob" to "Part 1 Volume"...  at the "Part Level" of the menu. Accept Default values.

Next you must "link" the Part Assign Knob, to a "Common Level" Assign Knob.  Common Level Assign Knobs sit at the "Performance Level".  Common Level Assignment Knobs may "control" multiple "Part Level" Assign Knobs.  Accept Default Values.

Assign Knobs are a "virtual" entity within the OS.  However the Physical Assign Knobs can be used to control, or alter the value of, the "virtual" Assign Knobs.  

You'll need to get your head around this "concept", so you'll need practice, while keeping the Reference Manual handy. 

On a basic level, the "control flow chart" is like this

Synth Parameter >>> Part Assign Knob >>> Common Assign Knob >>> SuperKnob 

You must establish the "links"  indicated by the ">>>" signs above. 

So, in your case, 

Part Volume >>> Part AsgnKnb1 >>> Common AsgnKnb1.   Leave the Superknob alone for now. 

You'll need to figure out the above on your own for now, because I don't have the scope to write out a full explanation. 

However,  when you have done this,  you should have Assign Knob1 (Physical) controlling Part 1 Volume... to some extent. 

This next piece of information is key!!

When you are using Control Assigns,  the Starting Value of the Parameter in question is very Important. 

Edit Part 1

Edit - Part1 - Common - Part Settings - General

Change "Volume" to Zero (0).

I guess you are thinking "But I don't want Part 1 with Zero Volume!".  

But in fact, you do.  You want Part 1 Volume to be Zero, when the Assign Knob 1 is fully counter-clockwise. 

Now if you adjust Physical Assign Knob 1 to "minimum" (0) the Part will be silent (Volume = 0+0 = 0.

If you turn Assign Knob 1 to maximum, the Part Volume will be at its loudest...

0 + 127 = 127 

The "+127" is an "Offset" controlled by the Assign Knob.  Later, you can make the Super Knob, control the Assign Knob... for the same End Result. 

*If* I remember correctly....

Edit Part 1

Edit - Part1 - Common - Mod/Control - Control Assign

You will see

Curve Type = Standard (default Linear)

Polarity = UniPolar (one way)

Ratio = +32 (I need to check... but doesn't matter) 

Param1 = 5 (linear),  adjust for Logarithmic or Exponential non-linear curves.

The little "curve" pictorial, that currently looks like a (linear) Triangle is your guide. 

With the Assign Knob1 set at "Maximum",  adjust the Ratio (up or down) until you hear your "Desired Maximum Volume".  You will notice that as you decrease Ratio, the Volume will get quieter,  and as you increase Ratio your Volume will get louder. 

Play the Keys and Use your ears** to decide where the Ratio setting provides your desired maximum volume, and leave it set there. Then Store the Performance. 

** Do Not try to do "The Math".  Always use your ears to judge where the "right" setting for Ratio is. This is good advice. Don't try to figure out if it's "exactly 70", it serves no purpose. If it sounds right, it is right. 

OK... so that's how you make the Assign Knob swing the Volume from 0 to 70 in one full turn. 

It's a basic example that you can build on. 

You can change the Linear curve to Logarithmic or Exponential using the "Param1" setting. 

You can change the "Standard" Curve to one of a choice of many others (I'd try these first) or design your own Custom Curve. 

You can add (link) Superknob Later. Remember, the Superknob can control many "Common Assign Knobs".

"Common Assign Knobs" can control many "Part Assign Knobs".

Ratio is available at each "link level"...  so you can create "complex gearing", allowing the SuperKnob to control many different Synth Parameters, but a different "Depths" (Ratios). That's "Advanced User" stuff for now though. 

Posted by: Antony

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This next piece of information is key!!

When you are using Control Assigns,  the Starting Value of the Parameter in question is very Important. 

Edit Part 1

Edit - Part1 - Common - Part Settings - General

Change "Volume" to Zero (0).

Thanks a lot Anthony. I knew all process you gave me as I already programmed hundreds of parts all controlled by the superknob but…..but, this simple key to put volume part to zero from start I did not have in mind even I knew that  part at zero volume, still can get volume with knobs programmed( I had also some part that was at zero volume but still were getting loud and when I lowered the ratio, I did not get zero volume at start, I will have a look at that to understand what happen there and made me thinking that part at zero volume was not the best solution). I could use many presets curves instead of users one. But still thinking that put little more octets for complex user memory curves will be useful. But at least what was the more common issues with volume parts controlled by SK is solved.

Glad to help.  Learning the OS is one thing, knowing how, why and where to use it is another.

From a "Single Part",  you can apply the same principles to a second Part (Part 2).

I always try to set my Ratios at the "Part Level".  This is "closer to the coal face",  or "closer to the work bench" so it keeps things more obvious.  

You can also set Ratios at the Common Level, and at the SuperKnob, but beware, changing Ratios here will affect everything "underneath". 

You can try altering the Volume of Part 2, with a different Ratio.  You can put Part 2 Volume on Assign Knob 2,   or add it as another "Destination" on Assign Knob1.  

For example,  say you wanted Part 2 (e.g. Violin) to do a Solo.  Let's say Part 1 is a Piano.

With Piano taking the Lead Role,  you want it's Volume at Max (e.g. at 70 using your example).  But, when the Piano is Max,  you only want it to be Piano. 

However,  you would like a Violin to "enter" and do a Solo, while the Piano "sits back" in the Mix.  You don't want the Piano to be silent for the Solo,  just a little quieter, while the Violin does its thing Front and Centre. 

When you want the Violin to "exit" you just turn up the Piano.  

At the end of the song, you would like the Piano to Fade, while the Violin Sweeps back in, and plays its heartbreaking Solo,  without Fading, to the very last note. 

So, you've already got your Part 1 Piano set up (as per previous 0-70) on Assign Knob1.

Set up your Violin in Part 2.  Set its Volume to 70,  assign its Volume to Assign Knob1 again, but now, instead of giving it a Positive Ratio,  give it a Negative Ratio. 

Choose the "Threshold" curve (alternate "Dog Leg") instead of Standard.  

The Starting Volume of the Violin is already "High",  but you want it to be at "Zero" with Assign Knob1 at Maximum (Piano Only).

But as you reduce the Piano Volume "a little" (I.e. reduce Assign Knob1 "a little"), you want the Violin to go "Full Loud" quite quickly. This is where the "Threshold" Curve will help you. 

If you turn up the Piano again,  the Violin Fades out, quickly. 

When you fade out the Piano to silence (outro of the song) the Violin stays. 

A variation of this would use the "Dog Leg" curve, if both Piano and Violin Fade out together. 

Same as before,  set the Violins Ratio (and Param1, Param2) whilst playing the Keys, to "hear" the result, and guide you to the right settings. 

This is the kind of scenario where you might want to get the SuperKnob involved, but put the SuperKnob under Expresion Pedal Control (Both hands free). 

BTW... I hope you can see I'm not a Robot AI.

This is "source" knowledge. 

That why SK is a great tool offering sound plasticity, have to think about combination and interaction between control parameters , it is endless. 

This method «  start from zero volume  part » have solved another issue that I had: the evolving volume of some performances thru SK were not balanced and I had to compensate with the volume pedal, now I can program more balanced and precise volume and the left foot is more free for doing another job than controlling volume all the time, a third expression pedal have his place, now . Nice and unexpected.

This method « start from zero volume part » have solved another issue that I had

You might try to look at it a bit differently.

1. every performance/part/element/operator WILL HAVE a 'programmed' volume/level when you load a performance.

2. if you program a controller (slider, knob, pedal) to change that volume/level the change will be effected by applying one, or more, offsets to that 'programmed' volume/level.

Viewing it that way it should be clear that if the volume/level of a part is 100 when you load the performance then the changes you make with a controller will apply offsets to the value of 100. If the volume is 0 the offsets will be applied to a value of 0.

If you program MORE THAN ONE controller to change the same parameter the second controller you move applies offsets to the STARTING value - not the 'current' value where the first controller left it.

In other words the value will likely JUMP from the current value to the value computed by the second controller (using polarity, ratio and parameter settings).

For EVERY parameter you need to decide:

1. do I want it to have a static value? if yes, then set the value and store that with the performance and do NOT program any controllers to change it

2. do I want to use a controller to change the value? if yes, then set the value to the starting position you plan to use for the controller you are programming.

Different controllers have different starting values - some start at MIN and some start at MAX. If you load a new performance the controllers may, or may not, get reset to their starting values. That depends on the 'Hold/Reset' setting you made on the Utility -> Settings -> MIDI I/O screen.

Posted by: Toby

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'Hold/Reset' setting you made on the Utility -> Settings -> MIDI I/O screen.

 

Thank you Toby, I had miss this useful function! 🤗